mapman Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) During some research, I found this: In a forthcoming research note, Garth Norman will examine linguistic evidences for the Tuxtla Mountains area as the location of the land and hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. He also conducted an archaeological reconnaissance recently with some success at the hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York, to try and relocate the stone box burial site of the Gold Plates, and will share that research experience.http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/ljfw4duk/159%20BOOK%20OF%20MORMON%20CRITERIA%20FOR%20THE%20HILL%20CUMORAH.htm?n=0So he had "some success" finding the location of the stone box? If so that would seem like major news. I can't find any more information about this reconnaissance online, but I'm very interested in what he found. I'm skeptical that anyone could find anything very definitive as from what I understand, treasure seekers dug pits all over the hill, but I'd be grateful if anyone has any further information about this. Edited February 14, 2013 by mapman
smac97 Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I'm skeptical. See here:"Three of us took some tools to go to the hill and hunt for more boxes of gold or something, and indeed we found a stone box. We got quite excited about it and dug carefully around it, and by some unseen power it slipped back into the hill. We stood there and looked at it and one of us took a crow-bar and tried to drive it through the lid and hold it, but the bar glanced off and broke off one of the corners of the box. Sometime that box will be found and you will see the corner broken off, and then you will know I have told you the truth" ("The Last Testimony of Martin Harris," by E. Cecil McGavin in The Instructor, October, 1930, Vol. 65, No. 10, pp. 587-589).In a series of interviews a Mormon writer named Edward Stevenson, who was aquainted with Joseph Smith relates what he was told by an old man living near the Hill Cumorah:"Questioning him closely he stated that he had seen some good-sized flat stones that had rolled down and lay near the bottom of the hill. This had occurred after the contents of the box had been removed and these stones were doubtless the ones that formerly composed the box. I felt a strong desire to see these ancient relics and told him I would be much pleased to have him inform me where they were to be found. He stated that they had long since been taken away."(REMINISCENCES OF JOSEPH THE PROPHET, And the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon by Elder Edward Stevenson, 1893 Salt Lake City, Utah) In 1875 David Whitmer told a Chicago Times reporter that he had seen the stone ?casket? at Cumorah three times before it was ?washed down to the foot of the hill,?(People of Paradox [New York: Oxford, 2007] 2
mapman Posted February 14, 2013 Author Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) I was wondering if perhaps they found evidence of where the box was before it got washed out, like a hole or evidence of somewhere a hole got filled in. That little note doesn't say very much, so it isn't very clear what they found. Edited February 14, 2013 by mapman 1
Duncan Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) I'm skeptical. See here:"Three of us took some tools to go to the hill and hunt for more boxes of gold or something, and indeed we found a stone box. We got quite excited about it and dug carefully around it, and by some unseen power it slipped back into the hill. We stood there and looked at it and one of us took a crow-bar and tried to drive it through the lid and hold it, but the bar glanced off and broke off one of the corners of the box. Sometime that box will be found and you will see the corner broken off, and then you will know I have told you the truth" ("The Last Testimony of Martin Harris," by E. Cecil McGavin in The Instructor, October, 1930, Vol. 65, No. 10, pp. 587-589).In a series of interviews a Mormon writer named Edward Stevenson, who was aquainted with Joseph Smith relates what he was told by an old man living near the Hill Cumorah:"Questioning him closely he stated that he had seen some good-sized flat stones that had rolled down and lay near the bottom of the hill. This had occurred after the contents of the box had been removed and these stones were doubtless the ones that formerly composed the box. I felt a strong desire to see these ancient relics and told him I would be much pleased to have him inform me where they were to be found. He stated that they had long since been taken away."(REMINISCENCES OF JOSEPH THE PROPHET, And the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon by Elder Edward Stevenson, 1893 Salt Lake City, Utah)In 1875 David Whitmer told a Chicago Times reporter that he had seen the stone ?casket? at Cumorah three times before it was ?washed down to the foot of the hill,?(People of Paradox [New York: Oxford, 2007]Edward Stevenson was a later General Authority and member of the First Council of Seventy in the 1890'shttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Stevensonwouldn't mind getting my hands on that book he wrote about Joseph Smith Edited February 14, 2013 by Duncan
mfbukowski Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I was wondering if perhaps they found evidence of where the box was before it got washed out, like a hole or evidence of somewhere a hole got filled in. That little note doesn't say very much, so it isn't very clear what they found.It rains a lot in that part of the world and as I recall there is nothing but lawn covering the hill now. I think if there had been a hole - at the top of a hill where obviously water would erode the soil- it would have washed away long ago and been covered by lawn.Google earth it and see the terrain!
Tacenda Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.
why me Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.We might not know the exact location where they took place. I don't think Joseph said much about it. But I could be wrong. But this is not to say that he did not show anybody. And I am sure that people went to the hill to find some more treasure or where the hole was.
nealr Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.It is unclear to me how we could have such a marker. All we know is he prayed in the woods near his home. It's not like he marked it with an "X". Ditto the recovery of the plates. We just don't have away of knowing the exact spot. 1
Calm Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.I suspect when Joseph did these things he was not thinking that a hundred years from now people would care enough about the historical and spiritual significance of what was happening to him, a young man of insignificance. Considering his preoccupation at the time of the vision, it is possible even he couldn't locate the exact spot where he prayed. And I suspect all he really cared about was the contents of the stone box and not about it or its location.Perhaps he might even be concerned about someone making the spot into a sort of shrine.And I would prefer no marker to one that guessed the spot. Edited February 14, 2013 by calmoriah 1
mapman Posted February 14, 2013 Author Posted February 14, 2013 I think that JS and perhaps some others described on what part of the hill the plates were buried. If I remember correctly, he said it was on the north side about halfway down. That is the part of the hill below the monument where there are now woods (at one point all the trees were cut down, but now it is mostly forested). If I have time I'll try to find a source for that.
Sevenbak Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.There used to be a marker at the "traditional" location within and along the Sacred Grove path/site. It was taken down because people were ripping up and trodding over the foliage and destroying the area to acquire take home "souveniers". That is at least the explanation given to me during an interview with the MP, who is over the area sacred sites.
cinepro Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.When teaching the 17yo Sunday School class last week, we were talking about the First Vision and I asked if they knew why Joseph went to the Sacred Grove. I explained that that was what it was called back then, so where else would someone go to pray?*crickets chirping*[One girl] "Are you serious?"
cinepro Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 During some research, I found this:http://www.ancientam...CUMORAH.htm?n=0So he had "some success" finding the location of the stone box? If so that would seem like major news. I can't find any more information about this reconnaissance online, but I'm very interested in what he found. I'm skeptical that anyone could find anything very definitive as from what I understand, treasure seekers dug pits all over the hill, but I'd be grateful if anyone has any further information about this.I suspect the Lord didn't want the best physical evidence for the Book of Mormon to be a hole in the ground.
Ron Beron Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown.I would like to believe that the Lord wants the spirit to show us the correct locale. 1
nosmelone Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 I scowered his website and found nothing about the reconnaissance success next stop his sock drawer! 1
EditorJack Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 It rains a lot in that part of the world and as I recall there is nothing but lawn covering the hill now. I think if there had been a hole - at the top of a hill where obviously water would erode the soil- it would have washed away long ago and been covered by lawn.Google earth it and see the terrain! Well, there was a hole. Here's a picture of photographer George Edward Anderson standing in it: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/GEA/id/11495/rv/singleitem 1
Calm Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 Well, there was a hole. Here's a picture of photographer George Edward Anderson standing in it: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/GEA/id/11495/rv/singleitemIn the end, there were lots of holes on the hill, IIRC, as there were many efforts to dig for the plates and/or other treasures by others besides JS.
Tiki Posted November 22, 2013 Posted November 22, 2013 When visiting the Saced Grove a couple yrs. ago I was surprised there wasn't a marker for where the first vision took place. This is similar to no marker for where Joseph found the plates. What would be the harm in it being shown? There are many other historical sights that are shown. There's a marker or sign at Adam-ondi-Ahman mentioning Tower Hill being the location of an old Nephite Tower.http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/adamondiahman/gallery/images/adam-ondi-ahman-mormon-temple14.jpg But it seems there are quite a few that believe Joseph Smith wasn't accurate about Nephites being outside of Central America. But Joseph Smith was accurate about the location of the First Vision. After that, it all gets fuzzy. Markers or not.
mfbukowski Posted November 23, 2013 Posted November 23, 2013 Well, there was a hole. Here's a picture of photographer George Edward Anderson standing in it: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/GEA/id/11495/rv/singleitemI guess they got the news guys out there with their cameras right after Joseph found the plates, right? Obviously that picture was made many years later. Anyone could have dug the hole, including the photographer.
rick7475 Posted November 24, 2013 Posted November 24, 2013 There's a marker or sign at Adam-ondi-Ahman mentioning Tower Hill being the location of an old Nephite Tower.http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/adamondiahman/gallery/images/adam-ondi-ahman-mormon-temple14.jpg But it seems there are quite a few that believe Joseph Smith wasn't accurate about Nephites being outside of Central America. But Joseph Smith was accurate about the location of the First Vision. After that, it all gets fuzzy. Markers or not. How do you get "Tower" from "Altar"? I was there in August and stood on Tower Hill. Joseph Smith never recorded any first hand accounts of the Altar or Altar(s), only secondary notes that differ in the number and description of the alters. On site, however, I did note many large stone formations, but nothing like one description of a 30 foot long wall. At Adam-ondi-Ahman there was also a small town with houses. There is no evidence of anything left there.
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