Desnews: 33 Scout Councils Ask Bsa To Delay Decision

[CV75]

This is disgustingly presumptuous.

Only because you read it with prejudice. I stated, "...an adult that demands his sexual orientation [which I did not specify to convey either hetero- or homosexual] be acknowledged in a youth program, one has to wonder how close to predatory behavior that might be / become." I hold teh same stance for any sexual orientation, and that should have been clear to the objective reader.

[Damien the Leper]

Only because you read it with prejudice. I stated, "...an adult that demands his sexual orientation [which I did not specify to convey either hetero- or homosexual] be acknowledged in a youth program, one has to wonder how close to predatory behavior that might be / become." I hold teh same stance for any sexual orientation, and that should have been clear to the objective reader.

That still does not make it any less presumptuous. I meant no disrespect, CV75. But I have been dealing with this bull since high school.

[Damien the Leper]

Nevermind.

[semlogo]

I agree; but when you think about it, an adult that demands his sexual orientation be acknowledged in a youth program, one has to wonder how close to predatory behavior that might be / become. I’m not arguing the merits of the proposal at hand, but questioning the basis for which it is even coming forward. I wouldn’t want an adult that asserts his sexual orientation (of any persuasion) working with my children in any organization.

Everyone assuming gays are predators is walking a fine line and may be removed from the thread.

What they seem to be asking is to be treated with respect and equality.

[DavidB]

The Great Salt Lake Council is overwhelmingly made up of LDS-sponsored units. Presumably, the council would be reflecting the desires of its constituency in leading this effort to get the national board to delay the vote on this controversial proposal. That's all I'm saying.

You were suggesting much more, even though you used the term "perhaps" in your first post.

[Scott Lloyd]

You were suggesting much more, even though you used the term "perhaps" in your first post.

Well, all I can do at this point is speculate.

But consider the fact that (according to the Deseret News story) the Great Salt Lake Council is 99 percent composed of LDS-sponsored units.

Does it make sense to you that the council would be supporting -- much less leading -- this grass-roots movement to get the vote delayed unless it was reasonably confident it was on firm ground constituency-wise in doing so?

There is quite obviously a power struggle going on with the national BSA board, and I see a clear effort to head off a measure that is being rushed through. If leaders and members of sponsoring units were OK with it, I should think the Great Salt Lake Council would be backing off and letting the thing go through unhindered.

[jwhitlock]

Some years ago, Lee Davidson (then of the Deseret News, now of the Salt Lake Tribune) did an expose on the salaries of certain Scouting executives and the smoldering resentment among the rank-and-file patrons over the Friends of Scouting drives.

In the midst of the fallout from that very hot-button story, President Monson could have given a ringing public declaration of support then; I find it, well, interesting that he did not do so.

Scott, what's your opinion on whether the church will drop scouting if this policy passes? Scouting has become rather bloated in recent decades, and it may be time to get back to the basics - like we do with the Young Women.

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott, what's your opinion on whether the church will drop scouting if this policy passes? Scouting has become rather bloated in recent decades, and it may be time to get back to the basics - like we do with the Young Women.

I've already weighed in on a prior thread that now would be good a time as any for such a move.

Whether or not the Church will do it, I won't venture a guess. I imagine they would want to hold off for a while and see how the scenario plays out. That may not be very long, considering how fast things are moving.

As I said earlier, I certainly think the Church, with very little difficulty, could design a program to accomplish the same purposes far more efficiently and cost-effectively.

[Calm]

I wish they'd worry more about predators in the BSA and stop worrying about gays.

My understanding is that they have quite an extensive effort to protect the scouts from predators.

[Calm]

It has been established that up to and possibly beyond 30% of all sexual abuse is homosexual. Hence, due to the much smaller proportion of homosexuals in the population, the risk for predation is much higher with homosexuals than with heterosexuals. The BSA policy is well justified on that basis alone the other good basis being morally straight.

CFR...and I am not talking about males abusing males, but adults who prefer adult homosexual partners abusing children and youth.

Pedophiles are more likely to be lefthanded and shorter than average. Does this mean that lefthanded and short men should be barred from being leaders?

http://rense.com/general67/left.htm

[Calm]

It's simple human nature. At the very least, the homosexual lifestyle is perceived as more legitimate with a change in policy. But there is also going to be strong attraction and people can and do lose control. I would never willing subject my kids to such an environment in either case.

Even if one were to demonstrate that a homosexual (someone whose adult partners were same sex) were 30% more likely to be abusive, with the lower rate of gays in the population it is still much more likely that a heterosexual will be the abuser. If it is just about diminishing the chance of abuse overall of the boys then only women should be the leaders as their rates are much, much lower.

[Calm]

Over 80% of all sexual abuse is done by men. Women should obviously run Scouting by this logic.

Great minds and all.

[CV75]

That still does not make it any less presumptuous. I meant no disrespect, CV75. But I have been dealing with this bull since high school.

“Bishop, I’ve always been heterosexual, which I think is pretty obvious [because I’ve made it a point to communicate it] and I think it would be good for the boys and girls to be aware of this as part of their acculturation in the youth program, as it is bound to come up. I am eager to serve.”

Should it not cross Bishop’s mind that perhaps this guy might have an attitude that is not consistent with youth protection and safety?

[Saints Alive]

This is on page 1 of today's Deseret News.

Since it is the Great Salt Lake Council -- predominately consisting of LDS units -- that is leading the effort, it is perhaps an indication of how the Church views the impending BSA vote on the controversial proposal to eliminate its national policy regarding the inclusion of homosexuals.

I hasten to add that I have no inside information on this. All I know is what I read in this news story.

Interesting, thanks for bringing this up Scott.

[CV75]

What they seem to be asking is to be treated with respect and equality.

As well they should, all things being equal and appropriate for an adult-mentored youth program. But my issue more fundamental than that—why is an adult’s (or youth’s) sexual preference at all relevant to an adult-mentored youth program? This is how I understand the Church to operate its scout units; behavior, not orientation, determines eligibility to participate. On the other hand, if someone expresses that his/her orientation is so relevant as to make an issue of asserting it as part of his/her identity within the youth program, I think that is a warning sign for potential trouble.

[Calm]

As well they should, all things being equal and appropriate for an adult-mentored youth program. But my issue more fundamental than that—why is an adult’s (or youth’s) sexual preference at all relevant to an adult-mentored youth program? This is how I understand the Church to operate its scout units; behavior, not orientation, determines eligibility to participate. On the other hand, if someone expresses that his/her orientation is so relevant as to make an issue of asserting it as part of his/her identity within the youth program, I think that is a warning sign for potential trouble.

It may become relevant when chastity is being taught....how to deal with different temptations and expectations. A young man with homosexual feelings could probably use an example of chasteness to let him know it is not the insurmountable problem that is sometimes displayed in our culture.

[Saints Alive]

Just a thought: The National BSA said the decision to accept gay scouts would be up to the local units, is this the individual troops or the local council? I'm wondering if a situation could arise where a council forces all troops under it to accept gay members?

[jwhitlock]

Just a thought: The National BSA said the decision to accept gay scouts would be up to the local units, is this the individual troops or the local council? I'm wondering if a situation could arise where a council forces all troops under it to accept gay members?

The "up to the local unit" exception is essentially worthless. As has been noted, how do you deal with it when you go to scout camp or Philmont or a Jamboree? Over the long term, such an "exception" will only serve to marginalize units that choose to choose to continue to exclude them, and effectively cuts them off from participation at public events.

[DavidB]

The "up to the local unit" exception is essentially worthless. As has been noted, how do you deal with it when you go to scout camp or Philmont or a Jamboree? Over the long term, such an "exception" will only serve to marginalize units that choose to choose to continue to exclude them, and effectively cuts them off from participation at public events.

Hasn't it been noted aswell that other countries allow gay scouts? And the LDS participates at Jamborees.

It seems a non-issue to allow gay Scouts, that is there is nothing but status quo to continue to exclude them.

[rpn]

Presumably, the council would be reflecting the desires of its constituency in leading this effort to get the national board to delay the vote on this controversial proposal.

How can it be reflecting the position of the church? Mormonsandgays.org makes it clear that LDS do not believe that ssattraction disqualifies anyone from callings. The church officially support law that prohibited discrimination on the basis of orientation in housing and employment. And LDS troops are almost guaranteed to have been including those with ssa as both scouts and as scouts since there have been LDS troops: ALL member boys are enrolled. And scout leaders are called by priesthood leadership presumably by revelation.

It would be absolutely unthinkable that our leaders would reject leaders or scouts that they believe are in those roles because Heavenly Father approves the calling, and wants every US LDS young man to participate in the scout program. No human organization policy should trump the authority of bishops to issue calls and the prophet to establish LDS troops.

What the Salt Lake Council position reflects is a bunch of people who are not yet paying attention to the prophetic counsel to love those who are slightly different than they are, and to not treat those with ssa badly.

LDS troops ought to welcome national BSA support for sponsoring instiutions to make their own decisions about who can be members and who can lead.

[jwhitlock]

It seems a non-issue to allow gay Scouts, that is there is nothing but status quo to continue to exclude them.

This is the methodology being used by those who want us to embrace the gay lifestyle; treat it as normal, and demonize as irrational anyone who expresses concern about this social experiment.

[rockpond]

This is the methodology being used by those who want us to embrace the gay lifestyle; treat it as normal, and demonize as irrational anyone who expresses concern about this social experiment.

I don't see how allowing gay scouts into the program is "embracing the gay lifestyle". As has been noted, current church policy is that we welcome those with SSA.

[rockpond]

The "up to the local unit" exception is essentially worthless. As has been noted, how do you deal with it when you go to scout camp or Philmont or a Jamboree? Over the long term, such an "exception" will only serve to marginalize units that choose to choose to continue to exclude them, and effectively cuts them off from participation at public events.

How do you deal with it? The same way the kids do every day of their lives. Our youth are well aware of the people around them who don't live our same values.

I'm also unclear as to how it would marginalize our units. For the past 50+ years the BSA has had co-ed scouting for boys 14 and up (Explorer Scouts and then the Venturing program). Our LDS troops have always chosen to exclude young women from the program and yet we have continued to participate in public events.

[jwhitlock]

I don't see how allowing gay scouts into the program is "embracing the gay lifestyle". As has been noted, current church policy is that we welcome those with SSA.

I'm very careful to distinguish between SSA and gay lifestyles. You should be too.

Given the emphasis on faith and morality that the BSA (currently) espouses, they would have to jettison part of the Scout Oath were they to allow active, practicing gays to participate. I see nothing in what is being considered that addresses that distinction, hence the concern about this experiment.

[jwhitlock]

How do you deal with it? The same way the kids do every day of their lives. Our youth are well aware of the people around them who don't live our same values.

I'm also unclear as to how it would marginalize our units. For the past 50+ years the BSA has had co-ed scouting for boys 14 and up (Explorer Scouts and then the Venturing program). Our LDS troops have always chosen to exclude young women from the program and yet we have continued to participate in public events.

I do not agree with coed programs, nor do I agree with allowing female scout leaders. With the disintegration of the family, young men need strong father figures to give them guidance, which is part of the purpose of scouting. Inasmuch as these kinds of things dilute that purpose of scouting, I will oppose them.