Plates Of Brass Vs. Scrolls

[Tacenda]

I'm currently reading a copy of the 1830 version of the BoM. I'm at the part where Nephi and his brothers cast lots to see who will go in to speak with Laban to get the records of their people or the brass plates. The reason for the OP is to ask, why would the records be in brass plates vs. scrolls? Also, why would they be brass for their anscestors at first and then Nephi engrave on gold for future generations? And do we have ancient records made from brass or gold that have been discovered anywhere on the earth today? Also it is hard to fathom someone engraving all those words onto something like brass or gold.

[volgadon]

Tacenda, forgive my laziness, I'll post links tommorow, but there is ancient writing engraved on metal plates, there are also ancient sources describing such, and Mike Reed has shown that this was accepted as true in the early 19th century.

[3DOP]

I'm currently reading a copy of the 1830 version of the BoM. I'm at the part where Nephi and his brothers cast lots to see who will go in to speak with Laban to get the records of their people or the brass plates. The reason for the OP is to ask, why would the records be in brass plates vs. scrolls? Also, why would they be brass for their anscestors at first and then Nephi engrave on gold for future generations? And do we have ancient records made from brass or gold that have been discovered anywhere on the earth today? Also it is hard to fathom someone engraving all those words onto something like brass or gold.

You know I don't believe in the veracity of the plates for other reasons, but permanence and beautification are just two reasons that come immediately to mind for why there might have been a special project to commit the Scriptures to a metal engraving. I doubt that it means that everyone who wanted to read the Scriptures had to get his servants to help him turn the "page". Is there any reason I don't understand why you need to think that engraving was the norm? Unless there is, If I believed like you, I would suppose that scrolls or something similar were common and that engraving was providential and unusual.

[HappyBird]

I am bumping this for more answers.

I am really struggling with the concept of plates in general and would love to see sources showing their usage as opposed to scrolls in that time period if anybody has any.

I'm also wondering if it is really possible for everything that is said to be contained on the brass plates to really be there, were their records compiled prior to 600bc that contained all of this:

• the 5 books of Moses
  
• a "record of the Jews from beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, kind of Judah." (1 Nephi 5:12)
  
• "the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekia; and also many prophecies which been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah." (1 Nephia 5:13)
  Specifically they would contain Isaiah 2-14 and 48-52 in their fulness.
  
• And a genealogy which would have shown that someone named Laman was a descendent of "Joseph who was sold into Egypt" (1 Nephi 5:14-16)
  

I've tried my own googling, though haven't spent much time doing so yet, I've found a few articles to read, but nothing has really compelled me so far.

[Kevin Christensen]

Hamblin's essay on "Sacred Writing on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean" is helpful, as is John Tvedtnes' excellent "The Book of Mormon and Other Hidden Books.

http://maxwellinstit...19&num=1&id=637

Hamblin's conclusions are notable:

Based on these examples of Hebrew, Phoenician, Greek, and Italic practices, we can conclude that writing and preserving sacred bronze and gold plates was a widespread phenomenon in the eastern Mediterranean world at the time of Lehi. These bronze plates were frequently associated with four genres:

1. Ritual: recording and performing the sacred rites of priestly clans (1.1, 1.2, 1.4, 2.1, 2.6, 2.7, 2.9, 3.3, 3.5, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.7).

2. Laws: preserving a permanent record of the community's laws (1.3, 4.5, 4.6).

3. Prophecies and divination: performing divination or preserving important prophecies or oracles (1.5, 2.3, 2.4, 3.2, 3.7, 4.4).

4. History: preserving inscriptions of important treaties and other historical developments (1.3, 2.5, 2.8, 3.1, 3.6).

These genres broadly match the described contents of the bronze plates in the Book of Mormon. "And he [Lehi] beheld that they [the bronze plates] did contain [1] the five books of Moses . . . [2] a record of the Jews from the beginning . . . [3] and also the prophecies of the holy prophets" (1 Nephi 5:11-13). In other words, in traditional Jewish designation, the bronze plates contained the Law (torah), the Prophets (nevi'im), and the Writings (ketuvim), all of which genres are found recorded on sacred metal plates in the pre-Christian Mediterranean.

The examples provided in this essay demonstrate that sacred writing on metal plates was a widespread phenomenon in the Semitic Near East and the eastern Mediterranean world in the centuries just before and after Lehi. This conclusion has also been drawn by Walter Burkert. In his 1992 study of the cultural dependency of Greek civilization on the Near East, Burkert presented a short analysis of the spread of the alphabet and writing styles and materials from the Near East to Greece. In his discussion he states that "the reference to 'bronze deltoi [plates or tablets]' as a term [among the Greeks] for ancient sacral laws should point back to seventh or sixth century [bC]" as the period in which the term deltos and the practice of writing on bronze plates was transmitted from the Near East to Greece.70 For students of the Book of Mormon, it is not at all surprising that in the seventh or sixth century BC, the practice of writing on bronze plates was adopted by the Greeks from the Phoenicians, along with the term bronze plates (deltos, from Phoenician/Hebrew dlt) to describe "ancient sacred laws."71 This is, of course, precisely the time and place in which the Book of Mormon claims that a set of bronze plates containing the "ancient sacred laws" of the Hebrews existed.

Also see Tvedtnes here:

http://maxwellinstit...ookid=9&chapid=

Also Wilfred Griggs here:

http://maxwellinstit...110&chapid=1278

Study of the compilation and editing of the Bible has made it clear how crucial Josiah's reign and the Exile was for the formation of the Bible as we have it. See Friedman, and Dever for instance.Over a decade ago, John Welch suggested that the Brass plates might have been compiled for King Josiah. (See Isaiah in the Book of Mormon.) Personally, I think they were done later, during the reign of Jehoiakim, who had been installed by the Egyptians. That would account better for both the Egyptian language and the presence of prophecies by Jeremiah. A few centuries later, the Greek Septuagint had been originally done at the request of an Egyptian King for the Royal library, for matters of prestige and doubtless for the use of Egyptian Civil servants in training. I think the Brass plates would have been the same kind of Egyptian-influenced diplomatic effort. With the defeat if the Egyptians by the Babylonians, the installation of Zedekiah, the original purpose had been interrupted, and the plates remained in under Laban's care in the treasury, waiting for Lehi's alternative disposition.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Edited March 18, 2013 by Kevin Christensen

[MormonMason]

I'm currently reading a copy of the 1830 version of the BoM. I'm at the part where Nephi and his brothers cast lots to see who will go in to speak with Laban to get the records of their people or the brass plates. The reason for the OP is to ask, why would the records be in brass plates vs. scrolls? Also, why would they be brass for their anscestors at first and then Nephi engrave on gold for future generations? And do we have ancient records made from brass or gold that have been discovered anywhere on the earth today? Also it is hard to fathom someone engraving all those words onto something like brass or gold.

Yes, there are ancient religious texts recorded on brass and gold, as well as copper, silver, and other metals. Some of these are quite ancient and others are more recent but all are older than the modern era. I am not at home with my books so I cannot at present provide full references. They, however, do exist.

Recall that the most likely location for the events of the Book of Mormon is Mesoamerica. Gold was quite plentiful there so making plates of ore would have been easier. It also is a little bit easier to engrave gold than brass or harder metals.

It is not all that easy to engrave any metal plates by hand. I have done it so I know this for fact and by experience. Jacob's description of the difficulties of writing on metal plates is accurate.

The main reason for writing on metal (and stone) is that you do it when you want to preserve important historical and religious texts for long periods of time. Tree bark paper and animal skins do not last all that long, particularly in the hostile environment of Mesoamerica. In addition, the codex form is considerably more convenient to carry than a collection of individual scrolls.

As an aside, there are legends about objects found by Arabs when they were raiding the pyramids and temples of Egypt. According to one of the legends, in order to pay the men they divided up a collection of a number of gold plates containing writing that they had found in a pyramid. This legend is mentioned in the introductory material to Budge's English translation of the Book of the Dead. I fail to recall the page number, however, but you always could look it up at the library.

Edited March 18, 2013 by MormonMason

[CASteinman]

I'm currently reading a copy of the 1830 version of the BoM. I'm at the part where Nephi and his brothers cast lots to see who will go in to speak with Laban to get the records of their people or the brass plates. The reason for the OP is to ask, why would the records be in brass plates vs. scrolls? Also, why would they be brass for their anscestors at first and then Nephi engrave on gold for future generations? And do we have ancient records made from brass or gold that have been discovered anywhere on the earth today? Also it is hard to fathom someone engraving all those words onto something like brass or gold.

Records kept on metal are not unknown. Generally they were the more precious records -- as these types of records were not common.

The dead sea scrolls for example have a copper scroll. It contains the locations of other stores of treasures and other libraries as I recall. It seems to me that is a good choice if you have only one scroll in metal.

I am aware of this article by William J. Hamblin.

http://maxwellinstit...19&num=1&id=637

Is your concern about the type of metal used or is it that metal is used at all?

As an aside, I understand that Steel and even Iron were at some ancient times, more precious than Gold.

Edited March 18, 2013 by CASteinman

[volgadon]

I am bumping this for more answers.

I am really struggling with the concept of plates in general and would love to see sources showing their usage as opposed to scrolls in that time period if anybody has any.

I'm also wondering if it is really possible for everything that is said to be contained on the brass plates to really be there, were their records compiled prior to 600bc that contained all of this:

• the 5 books of Moses
  
• a "record of the Jews from beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, kind of Judah." (1 Nephi 5:12)
  
• "the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekia; and also many prophecies which been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah." (1 Nephia 5:13)
  Specifically they would contain Isaiah 2-14 and 48-52 in their fulness.
  
• And a genealogy which would have shown that someone named Laman was a descendent of "Joseph who was sold into Egypt" (1 Nephi 5:14-16)
  

I've tried my own googling, though haven't spent much time doing so yet, I've found a few articles to read, but nothing has really compelled me so far.

This is a somewhat later example, but it is fairly sizeable.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57683-a-lead-codex-of-the-book-of-john/page__p__1209139286__hl__buckley#entry1209139286

[HappyBird]

Is your concern about the type of metal used or is it that metal is used at all?

That metal is used at all. I just have very little knowledge of how records were kept in that time period in general.

But beyond the material used for the record, I am really curious if there are other known compilations similar to what is said to have been on the brass plates.

I'll read through the links later tonight, thank you.

[Nathair/|\]

USU78 just started a very interesting thread discussing, among other things, the origin of the Brass Plates. His ideas are definitely worth your time.

[Nathair/|\]

A Roman-era Druid calendar engraved on a bronze plate was found in Coligny, France in 1897.

http://www.roman-britain.org/celtic/coligny.htm

[bcuzbcuz]

Scrolls have been found, identified and translated. The dead sea scrolls are the most famous. It's very easy to find pictures on the internet, along with pictures that clearly show scale of size. Scrolls could easily contain whole books. Writing on scrolls was done in ink like substances, the technique was simple and errors could be blotted out or written over.

The technique of writing on clay tablets was very well developed. More than two hundred thousand tablets have been found, roughly half have been translated. Most haven't been translated fully because they are hardly more than shopping lists. But the technology was extensively used, easy to write, easy to erase and since based on symbols similar to alphabet letters, required little more skill than pressing a stylus into wet clay.

Show pictures of plates, either brass, silver, gold, copper or any other metal with writing on them. The only pictures of metal plates with writing on that I have seen, are no larger than a credit card. Most are button sized with merely a phrase imprinted.

If anyone here has ever worked in copper, I have, small text is very hard to create. One slip of the hand and you get a long, uneven, jagged imprint in the metal, virtually impossible to erase. But I'm not very skilled. I'd be happy if someone could show how to write a whole page and what is done when an error occurs.

[Sevenbak]

Here's a few visual samples from history that I've come across. Part 1.

[Sevenbak]

Part 2.

[Questing Beast]

Metal in the BoM is problematic all the way through. The "Brass Plates" are just the first one, being as extensive as asserted to be. There is zero evidence for such a compilation on metal plates in book form. Then we have Nephi and his brothers" "steel bows", hardly likely. Sword of Laban which is so rare a blade that it was still in perfect condition centuries later for Benjamin to use, and Moroni to bury. No parallel artifact exists from the real world. And then massive amounts of metal working going on for over a thousand years in the Americas with nary a slag pile in evidence....

[HappyBird]

That is what I've read as well Questing Beast and what I tend to agree with.

[CASteinman]

Metal in the BoM is problematic all the way through. The "Brass Plates" are just the first one, being as extensive as asserted to be. There is zero evidence for such a compilation on metal plates in book form. Then we have Nephi and his brothers" "steel bows", hardly likely. Sword of Laban which is so rare a blade that it was still in perfect condition centuries later for Benjamin to use, and Moroni to bury. No parallel artifact exists from the real world. And then massive amounts of metal working going on for over a thousand years in the Americas with nary a slag pile in evidence....

Baloney.

[Stargazer]

Metal in the BoM is problematic all the way through. The "Brass Plates" are just the first one, being as extensive as asserted to be. There is zero evidence for such a compilation on metal plates in book form. Then we have Nephi and his brothers" "steel bows", hardly likely. Sword of Laban which is so rare a blade that it was still in perfect condition centuries later for Benjamin to use, and Moroni to bury. No parallel artifact exists from the real world. And then massive amounts of metal working going on for over a thousand years in the Americas with nary a slag pile in evidence....

This is so odd, QB. Massive amounts of metal working in South America alone produced incredible piles of gold and silver objects. As you may or may not recall, when Atahualpa was attempting to keep Pizarro from killing him, he offered to fill a room 22ft x 17ft 2ft deep, twice with silver and once with gold, in two months. Presumably he could do it, because the Incas had been quarrying and smelting gold and silver ore for hundreds of years. Where's the slag piles? Go look, I'm sure you'll find some. Either that, or they used the slag to bed their roads, who knows? Are you going to claim that they traded corn and beans with Chinese treasure fleets to obtain these riches?

There is no reason to suppose that Laban's sword could not be preserved over a thousand years, if there was a continuity of caretakers. There's piles of documents out of the Dead Sea area which were preserved for over 2000 years, after all. Even in a humid jungle it is possible to keep metal from rusting away, if you take care of it.

[kenporay]

Metal in the BoM is problematic all the way through. The "Brass Plates" are just the first one, being as extensive as asserted to be. There is zero evidence for such a compilation on metal plates in book form. Then we have Nephi and his brothers" "steel bows", hardly likely. Sword of Laban which is so rare a blade that it was still in perfect condition centuries later for Benjamin to use, and Moroni to bury. No parallel artifact exists from the real world. And then massive amounts of metal working going on for over a thousand years in the Americas with nary a slag pile in evidence....

Certainly not steel as in modern cold or hot roll, nor magetic or non magnetic stainless. But the word translated from the plates into kjv english steel is very likey.

Not to mention 4 places in the kjv text where steel is used to refer to hardness and/or metal. In 1580 AD the word steel was used and referred to both a ferrous metal (noun), as a verb ab an adjective.

I'm reminded of a very educated woman who taught the BofM sunday school class. After one lesson she mentioned that mention of cement in the BofM troubled her as "it was a modern invention." Coincidentally i had been reading up on roman use of cement.

It's amazing how each generation thinks they invented everything. TimeWarners running ads about wireless TV and how wonderful to be able to move the tv anywhere. We've had broadcast (wireless) tv since the 1940's.

[blackstrap]

The book of Mormon claims it was written on metal plates. Critics claim such was never done.

Writing on metal plates is found.Critics claim it is a one-off.

More plates are found from the era of 600 BC . Critics claim they were very small.

Larger examples are found.Critics claim there are only a few plate pages.

I suspect that if and when 5 examples of reasonably large many page plates are discovered,critics will say "YABUT ,there ought to be hundreds"

[CASteinman]

TimeWarners running ads about wireless TV and how wonderful to be able to move the tv anywhere. We've had broadcast (wireless) tv since the 1940's.

I'm going to "steel" this.

[nealr]

The book of Mormon claims it was written on metal plates. Critics claim such was never done.

Writing on metal plates is found.Critics claim it is a one-off.

More plates are found from the era of 600 BC . Critics claim they were very small.

Larger examples are found.Critics claim there are only a few plate pages.

I suspect that if and when 5 examples of reasonably large many page plates are discovered,critics will say "YABUT ,there ought to be hundreds"

A set of 19 gold plates bound together measuring approx. 5.4" x. 5.6" were found in South Korea and date to the 8th century AD. While not quite as big as the description of the Book of Mormon plates (said to be 6" x 8"), I would call this a "reasonably large many page plates" set. It is the second one pictured by Sevenbak's Part 2.

I personally struggled with the seize of the volume of plates for a while after a friend of mine pointed out that none of the examples of ancient plates were comparable to the Book of Mormon in size. So did some digging on this topic and came to some conclusions that I found to be fully satisfying.

Critics no doubt will have there objections. The plates are still too small, they'll say, or 19 plates is still not nearly enough plates, or that example comes from a time and place far removed from Book of Mormon peoples. The critics will forever have there objections. For me, I am satisfied with the evidence and don't see it as much of a stretch to imagine something like the plates from which the Book of Mormon came from, or the brass plates described in 1 Nephi.

For those interested, the most comprehensive study of ancient metallic epigraphy is H. Curtis Wright, Modern Presentism and Ancient Metallic Epigraphy (Salt Lake City, UT: Wings of Fire, 2006). It includes a 211 page bibliography of sources on metal plates.

[MormonMason]

Found the reference to the finding of golden tablets inscribed with writing online. Here it is:

The Arabic writer Idrisi, who wrote about A.H. 623 (A.D. 1226), states that a few years ago the "Red Pyramid," that of Mycerinus, was opened on the north side. After passing through various passages a room was reached wherein was found a long, blue vessel, quite empty. The opening into this pyramid was effected by people in search of treasure; they worked at it with axes for six months, and they in great numbers. They found in this basin, after they had broken the covering of it, the decayed remains of a man, but no treasure, excepting some golden tablets inscribed with characters of a language which nobody could understand. Each man's share of these tablets amounted to 100 dinars (about £50).

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tgy5NgESUu8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited March 19, 2013 by MormonMason

[cinepro]

I am bumping this for more answers.

I am really struggling with the concept of plates in general and would love to see sources showing their usage as opposed to scrolls in that time period if anybody has any.

I'm also wondering if it is really possible for everything that is said to be contained on the brass plates to really be there, were their records compiled prior to 600bc that contained all of this:

Just so I'm clear, would The Book of Mormon be less believable if Joseph Smith claimed the entire thing had been inscribed in tiny letters on a small bean-sized stone?

[CASteinman]

Found the reference to the finding of golden tablets inscribed with writing online. Here it is:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

wow. Sad. The pages were probably melted down. They were obviously considered valuable by someone ... so what did they say? Lost forever.