Treason!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm for the federal constitution in its original intended purpose. That much, I agree with. It was THAT constitution that God endorsed.

"The shores of history are littered with the civilizations, where once men entrusted their rights to a wholly centralized Government" (From memory, so I hope I did not rape the quote) Senator Richard B Russell.

[The Nehor]

I agree. When the Lord sent the Founding Fathers to earth, in their appointed time, and inspired them to produce the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, he was letting us know that if we wanted to create a just, merciful, prosperous and righteous world, we were free to do so on our own, without any involvement whatsoever from the government. The government's primary role being to protect the private citizens in their divinely inspired Constitutional rights, so that the people might continue on unhindered in pursuit of building a society in which true security and happiness might reign under God. This is what was traditionally known in America as freedom.

One of the greatest tragedies of the modern age is that too many US citizens have cast aside our traditional ideal of American freedom, and turned over their own sacred obligations and opportunities to create a righteous and prosperous society to a morally and financially bankrupt government, all in the vain and hopeless pursuit to create a corrupt, counterfeit version of God's Holy Zion.

No involvement with government at all huh? I will call Jesus and tell Him we do not need Him to come reign for a thousand years. We've got it covered.

I sometimes think some people imagine the U.S. was originally a have of laissez-faire capitalism and equality with equal opportunity and freedom for all..........I think these people need to read some history. I also find their committment to economic freedom ends as soon as someone wants to build something they do not like anywhere near their house. Then they run screaming to the politicians to protect them from other people using their own land as they wish. Sigh........

[thesometimesaint]

I agree. When the Lord sent the Founding Fathers to earth, in their appointed time, and inspired them to produce the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, he was letting us know that if we wanted to create a just, merciful, prosperous and righteous world, we were free to do so on our own, without any involvement whatsoever from the government. The government's primary role being to protect the private citizens in their divinely inspired Constitutional rights, so that the people might continue on unhindered in pursuit of building a society in which true security and happiness might reign under God. This is what was traditionally known in America as freedom.

One of the greatest tragedies of the modern age is that too many US citizens have cast aside our traditional ideal of American freedom, and turned over their own sacred obligations and opportunities to create a righteous and prosperous society to a morally and financially bankrupt government, all in the vain and hopeless pursuit to create a corrupt, counterfeit version of God's Holy Zion.

When Zion is at last established, its rise to glory will have nothing whatsoever to do with "the government." The true Zion will be set up as an entity independent of this fallen world and its hollow, misguided, dysfunctional imitations of God's true order.

13 Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I prepare you, and the foundation, and the ensample which I give unto you, whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you;

14 That through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world; (D&C 78)

I reiterate, Zion will arise in all her glory without any "help" from "the government." Rather, its fulfillment will come to pass in spite of the government, which by that time will be utterly ripened in iniquity.

What utter clap trap.

The Founders were there to create a more perfect UNION. They ESTABLISHED a GOVERNMENT. Not one formed by, run by, or answerable to God, but by/for/with We The People.

What ever divinity was present at that convention. He/she/it sure had a funny way of showing it. By making our "God Given Rights" subject to the will of the law of the land, and not to his/her/its divine will.

What tradition would that be? That blacks were 3/5 of a person, that Indians didn't count at all, that it took about 150 years for women to get the right to vote? The list is endless of rights that have yet to be fully enacted into law, let alone the hearts of the citizens. I'm not diminishing those great accomplishments of the Founders, but we are still a work in progress in forming that more perfect union.

Our government was formed on the idea that we need to balance one man's greed against another man's avarice. A system of Checks and Balances. That doesn't mean there won't be greed or avarice. Just that we balance one against the other. Sometimes we succeed sometimes we don't.

If all men were angels no government would be necessary. If all men were devils no government would be possible.

Actually it will be a government. A monarchy headed by Jesus the Christ.

[teddyaware]

No involvement with government at all huh? I will call Jesus and tell Him we do not need Him to come reign for a thousand years. We've got it covered.

I sometimes think some people imagine the U.S. was originally a have of laissez-faire capitalism and equality with equal opportunity and freedom for all..........I think these people need to read some history. I also find their committment to economic freedom ends as soon as someone wants to build something they do not like anywhere near their house. Then they run screaming to the politicians to protect them from other people using their own land as they wish. Sigh........

You must surely know I was referring only to corrupt earthly governments, not the government of the Kingdom of God. After all, I was talking about Zion, right?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You must surely know I was referring only to corrupt earthly governments, not the government of the Kingdom of God. After all, I was talking about Zion, right?

Hope you are right "men and women" will still be involved.

[The Nehor]

Hope you are right "men and women" will still be involved.

I guess the only way to good govenment is through the human extinction movement.

[teddyaware]

Hope you are right "men and women" will still be involved.

Now Pa Pa, What in the world would have given you the idea (based on what I wrote) that men and women might not be be involved in the building of Zion?

[The Nehor]

Now Pa Pa, What in the world would have given you the idea (based on what I wrote) that men and women might not be be involved in the building of Zion?

Maybe eunuchs are the chosen people?

[teddyaware]

Maybe eunuchs are the chosen people?

LOL!!!

[teddyaware]

What utter clap trap.

The Founders were there to create a more perfect UNION. They ESTABLISHED a GOVERNMENT. Not one formed by, run by, or answerable to God, but by/for/with We The People.

What ever divinity was present at that convention. He/she/it sure had a funny way of showing it. By making our "God Given Rights" subject to the will of the law of the land, and not to his/her/its divine will.

What tradition would that be? That blacks were 3/5 of a person, that Indians didn't count at all, that it took about 150 years for women to get the right to vote? The list is endless of rights that have yet to be fully enacted into law, let alone the hearts of the citizens. I'm not diminishing those great accomplishments of the Founders, but we are still a work in progress in forming that more perfect union.

Our government was formed on the idea that we need to balance one man's greed against another man's avarice. A system of Checks and Balances. That doesn't mean there won't be greed or avarice. Just that we balance one against the other. Sometimes we succeed sometimes we don't.

If all men were angels no government would be necessary. If all men were devils no government would be possible.

Actually it will be a government. A monarchy headed by Jesus the Christ.

I never said government wasn't a necessity. I was referring to this present world system (you know, the system that's now quite obviously ripening in iniquity), while extolling the glories of the new non-corrupt, non-dysfuctional governmental system that will exist in Zion. The people who live therein in righteousness will have learned correct principles and will largely be left to govern themselves without proud, power-warped despots, dictators, and tyrannts constantly breathing down their necks.

If you'd like to know where I'm coming from, please read the following from President Benson's October 1988 General Conference address. If you disagree with what he says, there's little chance you and I can have a fruitful and edifying dialogue on this subject because I believe what he said with the whole of my being...

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph."

You are developing a pattern of politicizing threads. I suggest you stop if you want to remain on the board.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't see it that way. Are the peoples of the earth materially more wicked than in 1988? Probably not. We're not particularly more righteous either. The Restored Gospel continues to roll forth and more and more people are joining in our cause. That doesn't mean that we are without problems. We have plenty. The Lord will have a prepared people at his coming in power and glory.

[teddyaware]

I never said government wasn't a necessity. I was referring to this present world system (you know, the system that's now quite obviously ripening in iniquity), while extolling the glories of the new non-corrupt, non-dysfuctional governmental system that will exist in Zion. The people who live therein in righteousness will have learned correct principles and will largely be left to govern themselves without proud, power-warped despots, dictators, and tyrannts constantly breathing down their necks.

If you'd like to know where I'm coming from, please read the following from President Benson's October 1988 General Conference address. If you disagree with what he says, there's little chance you and I can have a fruitful and edifying dialogue on this subject because I believe what he said with the whole of my being...

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph."

You are developing a pattern of politicizing threads. I suggest you stop if you want to remain on the board.

If the above post of mine is an example of how I'm "politicizing threads," with all due respect, will a moderator please explain to me how this is so? In the first paragraph, I contrast the glorious and righteous future Zion of God with the "fallen" governmental systems of this world -- a theme the scriptures bring up again and again. The following are just two of hundreds of such passages found throughout the Standard Works:

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great (i.e. the fallen systems of this present world), which shall fall. (D&C 1)

And again:

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies... (Ether, chapter eight)

The next three paragraphs of the post are verbatim quotes from a President of the Church, spoken in a General Conference. Are these words of President Benson's also too politicizing for this board? And if they are too politicizing, please explain to me why this is so? Also, if quoting and commenting on certain "unpleasent" passages of scripture is off bounds, please let me know that as well.

I ask these questions in sincerity, hoping to get specific answers so I'll know, with exactitude, what is acceptable and not acceptable on this board. If you think it's better to answer me privately, that will be fine. I promise to keep anything you might say to me privately in confidence.

Edited January 24, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I never said government wasn't a necessity. I was referring to this present world system (you know, the system that's now quite obviously ripening in iniquity), while extolling the glories of the new non-corrupt, non-dysfuctional governmental system that will exist in Zion. The people who live therein in righteousness will have learned correct principles and will largely be left to govern themselves without proud, power-warped despots, dictators, and tyrannts constantly breathing down their necks.

If you'd like to know where I'm coming from, please read the following from President Benson's October 1988 General Conference address. If you disagree with what he says, there's little chance you and I can have a fruitful and edifying dialogue on this subject because I believe what he said with the whole of my being...

"I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph."

You are developing a pattern of politicizing threads. I suggest you stop if you want to remain on the board.

This post is the same as my previous on this thread, with the exception of the three very important paragraphs inserted just before the final paragraph.

If the above post of mine is an example of how I'm "politicizing threads," with all due respect, will a moderator please explain to me how this is so? In the first paragraph, I contrast the glorious and righteous future Zion of God with the "fallen" governmental systems of this world -- a theme the scriptures bring up again and again. The following are just two of hundreds of such passages found throughout the Standard Works:

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great (i.e. the fallen systems of this present world), which shall fall. (D&C 1)

And again:

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies... (Ether, chapter eight)

The next three paragraphs of the post are verbatim quotes from a President of the Church, spoken in a General Conference. Are these words of President Benson's also too politicizing for this board? And if they are too politicizing, please explain to me why this is so? Also, if quoting and commenting on certain "unpleasent" passages of scripture is off bounds, please let me know that as well.

Last but not least, the whole premise of this thread is whether or not the Latter-day Saints are committing treason against the government when they sware greater allegiance to the Kingdom of God than they do to their respective secular governments. How in the world can one discuss potential treason against earthly governments without the dialogue becoming somewhat "political' in nature? See and read for yourself the original post that started this thread:

"Simple question really; as Mormons, we believe in the Kingdom of God. Are we committing treason when we preach these things? As some people know, I'm not mainstream LDS, so maybe this is a dumb question for those individuals lol, but as far as I know, we believe the same doctrines when it comes to the Kingdom of God and it's government, which is NOT the current government. What do you think?"

This thread should have been pulled immediately, if the dicussions on this board are supposed to remain apolitical.

I ask these questions in sincerity, hoping to get specific answers so I'll know, with exactitude, what is acceptable and not acceptable on this board. If you think it's better to answer me privately, that will be fine. I promise to keep anything you might say to me privately in confidence

Edited January 24, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

"This thread should have been pulled immediately....."

That would only be possible if the mods were on the board 24/7.

[teddyaware]

"This thread should have been pulled immediately....."

That would only be possible if the mods were on the board 24/7.

The original post that started this was posted 5 days ago, and there are now 63 replies on this "hot" thread. The very title of this thread --"Treason" -- should have raised a warning flag immediately if there is a problem with so called "political" threads.

Anyway, I think there is some confusion about this issue. There's a significant difference between "political discussions" and discussions on the proper role of government. Things political relate to the ideas or strategies of a particular parties or factions in politics (you know, like the constant haggling, intrigues, and unseemly behaviors that take place between the Democrats and Republicans). Meanwhile, discussions on the proper role of earthly governments are encompassed within the principles and doctrines of the Restored Gospel. The following is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Listen to the words of the Lord himself as he addresses the proper role of government (not things political) in the following from D&C 98:

"4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

Is it proper to censor on this board those who would legitimately quote scriptural verses like these?

Edited January 25, 2013 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

"This thread should have been pulled immediately....."

That would only be possible if the mods were on the board 24/7.

Man, he's asking for it!

[mfbukowski]

Is it proper to censor, on this board, those who would legitimately quote scriptural verses like these?

Even the devil can quote scripture. Have you ever been in a sport and argued with the umpire? Not a bright move. Play the game, listen to the ump or reap the consequences.

Sorry for being a nanny, but not very.

[teddyaware]

Even the devil can quote scripture. Have you ever been in a sport and argued with the umpire? Not a bright move. Play the game, listen to the ump or reap the consequences.

Sorry for being a nanny, but not very.

I speak respectfully. What my point here boils down to is simply this: What exactly constitutes a "poilitical" discussion on this board? Answer the following question with a yes or no and I'll get the point, and thereafter will understand how to comport myself on this discussion board. Here's the question:

Are comments pertaining to the proper role of earthly governments, as outlined in the scriptures and found in the addresses and writings of General Authorities past and present, considered too political and out of bounds on this board?

A yes or a no answer will suffice to clarify things for me. Many thanks.

Addendum: Again, most respectfully, I just noticed that one of this board's discussion guidelines says there should be no discussions on "Politics (unless directly related to the church)." I believe most, if not virtually all of my "political" comments on this board do, in fact, relate directly to the LDS church. What have I been doing to violate either the letter or spirit of this specific guideline. Please understand that all I want is clarification; I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer. Thanks again.

Edited January 24, 2013 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

Yes and no. The Mods giveth, the Mods taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Mods.

[teddyaware]

Yes and no. The Mods giveth, the Mods taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Mods.

Again, most respectfully, I just noticed that one of this board's discussion guidelines says there should be no discussions on "Politics (unless directly related to the church)." I believe most, if not virtually all of my "political" comments on this board do, in fact, relate directly to the LDS church. What have I been doing, then, to violate either the letter or spirit of this specific guideline. Please understand that all I want is clarification; I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer.

[thesometimesaint]

I have observed that unless it is very specific about how actual Church doctrine(not how individuals) applies. The thread has a short lifespan. I'm not a Mod so I really can't tell you all the factors they use in being a Mod.

[teddyaware]

I have observed that unless it is very specific about how actual Church doctrine(not how individuals) applies. The thread has a short lifespan. I'm not a Mod so I really can't tell you all the factors they use in being a Mod.

The post I was flagged on contained some comments of mine about the glories of the future Zion and an extended quote from a General Conference address by a recent Church President. It doesn't get much more doctrinal than that.

[thesometimesaint]

How and to whom it applies is more speculative than doctrinal.

[volgadon]

How and to whom it applies is more speculative than doctrinal.

Exactly.

[teddyaware]

How and to whom it applies is more speculative than doctrinal.

If you don't mind, could you please elaborate? Using examples, it would be great if you could demonstrate the right way and the wrong way to do it. Thanks for the helpful input.

Edited January 24, 2013 by teddyaware