thesometimesaint Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 He will put an end to them, but it doesn't have to be violent. It could very well be a legal surrender.I'm not sure if I believe it itself but one member I know emphatically believes that a constitutional convention will be called by the United States in which they will use the authority given them I turn the government and how it runs over to Christ.I'm not saying this is true, but is an example of how a nation could legally, peacebly surrender rule to Christ.Never said it HAD to be violent. But given the history of this sad world. It probably will be. No not by Christ himself. We'll do it to ourselves.
BCSpace Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 Simple question really; as Mormons, we believe in the Kingdom of God. Are we committing treason when we preach these things?The Kingdom of God inspired the U.S. Constitution so no, we are not.
halconero Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Never said it HAD to be violent. But given the history of this sad world. It probably will be. No not by Christ himself. We'll do it to ourselves.I can agree and disagree.My personal feelings is that it will be a bit of both. There will be some preliminary ground work to set up the political government, which will see some violent reaction. But I see most of the annexation ocurring after the second coming, leaving only the righteous of those nations to peacefully incorporate themselves. Edited January 21, 2013 by halconero
thesometimesaint Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 The unrighteous are too burn as stubble at his coming. While I have no idea as to how that is to occur. It doesn't sound nonviolent to me.
The Nehor Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 The unrighteous are too burn as stubble at his coming. While I have no idea as to how that is to occur. It doesn't sound nonviolent to me.I am pretty sure stubble burning is the least violent kind of burning. 1
cdowis Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 It is not treason. Treason is advocating or attempting to overthrow the government by force of arms.Or giving aid and comfort to the enemy -- such as revealing national secrets.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 Or giving aid and comfort to the enemy -- such as revealing national secrets.Or giving aid and comfort to the enemy -- such as revealing national secrets.Add in without proper authorization
EllenMaksoud Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 Yes. Although when Christ comes again to establish His Kingdom, I don't believe that the government of the United States of America will exist.Having stated my belief, you can't commit treason against a government that no longer exists.Years and years ago, in a History class, the Professor said that countries generally only exist for 200 or 300 years. I don't worry about such things much.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 I think he meant that republics last about 200-300 years. Empires can last quite a bit longer.
halconero Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 I think he meant that republics last about 200-300 years. Empires can last quite a bit longer.Well...yes in a technical sort of way. With the same form of government? Not so much.There are few similarities to be drawn between the Italo-Roman empire under Octavian to the Greco-Roman empire under Alexius Komnenus. 1
TruthSeeker24 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Posted January 22, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong, but we believe in the 12th article of faith ONLY so far as it does not trample on our rights.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong, but we believe in the 12th article of faith ONLY so far as it does not trample on our rights.True, but we as individuals don't get to make that determination. If and when the Church says it is time to rebel then we have a moral obligation to rebel. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
The Nehor Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 True, but we as individuals don't get to make that determination. If and when the Church says it is time to rebel then we have a moral obligation to rebel. I don't see that happening anytime soon.I claim the right to rebel without the church's permission."Eviscerate the bourgeois! Down with the proletariat! Aristocrats unite!" 1
TruthSeeker24 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Posted January 22, 2013 So if Utah passes the law stating it will not obey federal gun regulation laws, then we should obey the federal government over the Utah state law, and submit to gun control? I'm NOT turning this into a gun control thread lol. I'm just using it as an example to understand where your coming from.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) Federal law ALWAYS supersedes State law.See Nullification Criseshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_Crisis Edited January 22, 2013 by thesometimesaint
TruthSeeker24 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Posted January 22, 2013 Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue But I understand where your coming from
The Nehor Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 So if Utah passes the law stating it will not obey federal gun regulation laws, then we should obey the federal government over the Utah state law, and submit to gun control? I'm NOT turning this into a gun control thread lol. I'm just using it as an example to understand where your coming from.God endorsed the federal constitution. He said nothing about the state ones. 1
TruthSeeker24 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Posted January 22, 2013 God endorsed the federal constitution. He said nothing about the state ones. I'm for the federal constitution in its original intended purpose. That much, I agree with. It was THAT constitution that God endorsed.
The Nehor Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 I'm for the federal constitution in its original intended purpose. That much, I agree with. It was THAT constitution that God endorsed.I am for the constitution as written. While an understanding of the original purpose is important we are not living in the 18th century and can retain principles while changing practice and not violating the spirit or the letter of the document.
TruthSeeker24 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Posted January 22, 2013 I can see where your coming from
The Nehor Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 I can see where your coming from I kind of think the constitution needs a rewrite. Then I realize the pool of talent we have to draw from and who would likely be involved in the project and I shelve it as a horrific idea.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 The overriding principle of the Constitution was to establish a country governed by law subject to the law established by we the people. The Founders never intended it to be a straightjacket barring change. The Founders never envisioned under 21 year old nonwhite, non male, non landowners, voting.
The Nehor Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 The overriding principle of the Constitution was to establish a country governed by law subject to the law established by we the people. The Founders never intended it to be a straightjacket barring change. The Founders never envisioned under 21 year old nonwhite, non male, non landowners, voting.This is why I roll my eyes when older general authorities wax nostalgic about the good old days of morality.
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 I'm for the federal constitution in its original intended purpose. That much, I agree with. It was THAT constitution that God endorsed.I agree. When the Lord sent the Founding Fathers to earth, in their appointed time, and inspired them to produce the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, he was letting us know that if we wanted to create a just, merciful, prosperous and righteous world, we were free to do so on our own, without any involvement whatsoever from the government. The government's primary role being to protect the private citizens in their divinely inspired Constitutional rights, so that the people might continue on unhindered in pursuit of building a society in which true security and happiness might reign under God. This is what was traditionally known in America as freedom. One of the greatest tragedies of the modern age is that too many US citizens have cast aside our traditional ideal of American freedom, and turned over their own sacred obligations and opportunities to create a righteous and prosperous society to a morally and financially bankrupt government, all in the vain and hopeless pursuit to create a corrupt, counterfeit version of God's Holy Zion. When Zion is at last established, its rise to glory will have nothing whatsoever to do with "the government." The true Zion will be set up as an entity independent of this fallen world and its hollow, misguided, dysfunctional imitations of God's true order. 13 Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I prepare you, and the foundation, and the ensample which I give unto you, whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you;14 That through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world; (D&C 78)I reiterate, Zion will arise in all her glory without any "help" from "the government." Rather, its fulfillment will come to pass in spite of the government, which by that time will be utterly ripened in iniquity. 1
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