Former [Mormon] Army Staff Sergeant To Receive Medal Of Honor For Actions In Afghanistan

[volgadon]

I just noticed that the dude statue below does have a gun as well. It eve looks like something I used playing Medal of Honor (oh, the irony).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamayev_Kurgan

[mfbukowski]

The one with a sword is a woman, a mother, so I think John Wayne wouldn't stand a chance...

Uh oh.

Well maybe as long as she isn't a Jewish mother....

[Darren10]

Bin Laden was found by tracing him externally.

"They range from something as innocuous as the 'attention grasp' or 'facial grasp,' you know, grabbing somebody by the lapels or grabbing them by the chin, to a variety of things that have to do with sleep or diet or stress positions," former CIA Director Gen. Michael Hayden said.

In the most extreme cases, detainees were subjected to waterboarding, in which they experience what it's like to drown.

Among those who provided information while under CIA control was Hassan Gul, a senior al-Qaida operative from Pakistan. According to the detainee documents, Gul told interrogators that Kuwaiti traveled with bin Laden. A senior U.S. official says the information Gul provided was key to identifying Kuwaiti as bin laden's courier.

But he may have provided it under stress.

A 2005 document indicates that Gul was one of the CIA detainees subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques." He is now free.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks and one of three CIA detainees subjected to waterboarding, indirectly confirmed information about Kuwaiti.

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/05/136005405/did-harsh-interrogation-tactics-lead-to-bin-laden

Could you outline the strictly "external" mthods used to find Bin Laden?

As for 9/11 it was a one-shot. No one else could pull it off again.

Putting a lot of faith in our military, eh? So much for God beng involved I guess. But here's this:

The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/cia-confirms-waterboarding-911-mastermind-led-info-aborted-911-style-attack-los-angeles

But, than again, maybe it was strictly "external' methods used to prevent this attack. Or maybe even a mighty mighty military.

At least you are now seem to be admitting that our military is used to threaten others and not to defend ourselves.

I've no problem whatsoever in preventive strikes. We live in a time when a push of a button would recreate a ho

locaust. No thanks for waiting. We got the intel, let's prevent it.

Why do we need to threaten others.

Cuz we're awesome and others do not like our awesomness. Besides Bin Laden who used the US presence in Saudi Arabia as *an excuse* to attack the US, how did we threaten Afghanistan?

Seems opposed to Book of Mormon principles that only defense is justified.

Where does the Book of Mormon say that? Me don't know. Since when was the Book of Mormon written to dictate military policy? Me not know either. However, doesn't the Book of mormon's abundant accounts of war seem to make a whole lot of sense when applied to the ever going spiritual war we are in? Like following the prophet, remaining righteous, calling upon the lord our God, making covenants to Him and keeping them, AND not going out and looking to fight evil?

A preemptive or even retributive external strike is strictly prohibited.

Really? Let's reread Alma 48 (portions given):

13 Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.

14 Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.

15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

16 And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.

Where's the strict prohibition agains preemptive strikes? The moral rules seem to be a) defend the people, their rights, and country, religion; b) never give offense (we did not offend Bin Landen directly nor did we offend Afghanistan); c) fight against an enemy; d) fight to preserve the lives of the people. Preemtive strikes do all these things, do they not? It also says that God would direct his righteous people to "flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger". They did not have the danger of planes running into skyraise buildings or to be nuked, nor did they? killing phsychopaths before they kill us *IS* defending one's people. How is it anything but?

China wants to play saber-rattling power politics in the Pacific. They can't seriously threaten us and we cannot seriously threaten them except in a MAD scenario. Why do we need this many carriers?

Your infantile attempt to mock me being stuck in the 60s notwithstanding, you, sir, REALLY need to get back stuck in the 30s and 40s. Japan used to be no threat militarily. The lack of prepartation was devestating to the US. The more ari craft carriers the better. Taiwan is most defintely a good reason to have at least as few present in the Pacific alone.

As for France you may want to be a little more thankful. They did after all intervene in the Revolutionary War so we could one day have a Constitution.

I am thankful. They provided a significant help. They joined us to defeat the British which they opreviously tried to do but true to their nature, they couldn't gain victory. We've more than repaid them for their help to us. In our modern times, they are very weak and offer the world little reason to look up to.

A strawman. They cannot realistically strike at us and we cannot realistically strike at them. Even if they could I do not accept that Soviet-style realpolitick "How many divisions do you have?" can or should make our decisions.

You're the one who asked why we need the best military. Well, if not us than who? You're free to name any country of your choosing. Somebody's got to have "the best" military and it's clear you've no desire it be your own country.

Since we are praising Moroni (and I can join in that) can we look at why he thought they started out losing the big war (hint: it wasn't because they lacked swords)

No disagreement but that hardly nullifies that Moroni, in his righteousness, directly connected to returning his people to Jesus Christ, built up his military.

I can think of no dispensation of the gospel where this applied or even was suggested. When Enoch's city was attacked God wiped out the attackers without them doing a thing. The righteous need no army.

Feel free to start a country with no army. Good luck with that.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! China intervening to protect N Korea? Someone is still stuck in the 60s and 70s.

You, sir, seriously need to get up to speed with current events. China ABSOLUTELY will bakc up North Korea. they side with N Korea at the UN, condone N korea's nuke missile launches, and are an active threat to Japan.

[Darren10]

In fact if South Korea was willing and able to occupy North Korea and reunite the nation I expect they would be very pleased if that happened. South Korea would not if they had the opportunity as it would be economic suicide. West Germany was the strongest economy in Europe and integrating East Germany (which was much more developed then N Korea) taxed their political, economic, and social structures nearly to the breaking point.

First, reunification could happen but that is hardly an invasion is it? Second, Germany is still the largest ecomony in Europe. Yes, there was a plunge in the economy after reuniting with East Germany. That's in large part, as I see it, of 1) East Germans not nearly *as accustomed* with West Germans to have to work in order to keep their job, 2) Germany's general very large social funding, the path the US is currently following.

So, in your opinion, huge standing militaries make it less likely governments will oppress their people?

It's worked great here, has it not? Ther standing army is under civilian control as We the people elect the President who is Commander-in-Chief. It's not the size of the army but how it's used. I'm a huge believe in state sovereignty. They can solve their problems far better than the federal government. The federal government's job is to provide security.

I am pretty sure no nation on earth has a standing policy of allowing other nations to invade and conquer it.

Context, sir. the US will never allow Canada to be invaded and conquored. Canada needs not to maintain a large army. Ditto Puerto Rico (as per its size).

Also, Japan spent more of its budget on the military in the 30s and 40s and they would have been invaded had they not surrendered.

Correct. Under and emperor, of course they set out to conquor.

I am guessing Shiz and Coriantumr were not diverting the treasury to support the retired just before the final battle.

Oh, yes they were. It was to preserve their own power and ergo;, wealth.I would point out that most people with your ideas believe the United States lost its way. Was that back when the US Army had less then a hundred men in it like back in some periods of the 1800s? Or the 30s when our army was dwarfed by the army of Greece?

I think you have only a vague awareness of current geopolitical realities and a fairly vague grasp of history.

That's funny. Thanks.

[Nathair/|\]

Not strictly true. The US has better quality aircraft, but the Russian airforce can still pack a punch, and it has impressive missile systems. Same goes for submarines. The land forces are also formidable, so even if the USA goes up against them and wins, you would still taking a painful bruising.

Nor would Russia, for that matter.

I would never get involved in a land war in Asia. It's one of the classic blunders. It never, ever works out for the invaders. I do think our Navy could defeat anyone else in an air superiority battle anywhere on this planet. Edited January 17, 2013 by Nathair

[Darren10]

Volgadon #51;

Mamayev Kurgan (Russian: Мамаев Курган) is a dominant height overlooking the city of Volgograd (formerly Stalingrad) in Southern Russia. The name in Russian means "tumulus of Mamai".^[1]

So does "volgadon" mean a "tumulus" of something?

Thanks for the link.

[volgadon]

Volgadon #51;

So does "volgadon" mean a "tumulus" of something?

Thanks for the link.

No, not a kurgan, but there are plenty of them between the Volga and the Don, which is where I served my mission.

[volgadon]

1) East Germans not nearly *as accustomed* with West Germans to have to work in order to keep their job

If they had similar laws to the USSR, "social parasitism" would have been a criminal offense.

[Nathair/|\]

If he's waukin yet?

Did I ever thank you for pointing that song out to me? It's become my favorite Scottish Rebel song.

[Ron Beron]

While I know this is going to be unpopular here, I have to say that I do not agree that this is "cool".

What is cool about killing people?

There is nothing "cool" about killing people, but there is something genuine and noble about defending your friends and yourself against a sustained attack.

[ed2276]

It's the serving the country part that is cool, not the killing people part.

Where did you get the idea that it is noble to "serve" those who send you to kill others? The American People are not servants to the government, or the country. As free individuals, we do not owe this country anything.

Rather,

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[ed2276]

I don't know about Mike's reason for the "cool", but the man's actions also had the effect of significantly cutting down on the number of deaths among the US troops that had been attacked and for that reason, I would suggest he deserves recognition.

Here is a better way to cut down on the number of U.S. troops' deaths: don't go invading other countries in the first instance.

[ed2276]

Do you understand what the medal of honor is given for?

"The Medal of Honor is the United States of America's highest military honor, awarded for personal acts of valor above and beyond the call of duty." It has only been awarded to 3,459 people since it started being given out after the civil war in the 1800s-that includes all divisions of the military.

It's not given for 'killing people'. It's given for courage in the face of danger, and not lightly.

So, getting a shiney piece of medal with ribbons is the reward you get on earth for heroically killing other people? Life is cheap, isn't it?

[ed2276]

It can happen, although not in the way some people might think.

I wonder if the soldier is still an active saint, on duty both for God and his country.

The writer doesn't seem to know, based on that little snippet.

God didn't send him to Afghanistan.

[ed2276]

As a former Army Sargent, I am very insulted. It is called war, one we did not start! If someone was trying to kill those under your command would you just stand by? Must be an America thing.

One we didn't start? Are you kidding me? So, some Muslims just happened to get the idea that they should fly a few jetliners into buildings on a whim? No reason that they specifically targeted the U.S.? The U.S. was just peacefully minding its own business and was victimized by these bad guys for no fault of our own?

[ed2276]

We were attacked and our enemy is all over the world in many countries...and few else will step up to stop terrorists who kill women and children. How soon we forget.

Do you forget Mossadegh? Do you remember the U.S. armed and trained Al Qaeda in Afghanistan to fight the U.S.S.R.? Do you forget the U.S. propped up Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and winked as he used chemical weapons on his own population? Do you forget the sanctions the U.S. leveled against Iraq, killing hundreds of thousands of innocents, who never did the U.S. a single wrong? Do you forget the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia and the propping up of Arab dictators across the region; dictators who oppress their people and live large of U.S. largesse?

Yes, how soon you forget!

The "enemies" you fearmonger against today are the enemies the U.S. and the West created by their meddling and occupation in lands not our own.

[ed2276]

Here is the standard that has been lifted up to the LDS in these days by revelation from the Lord:

D&C 98:15 For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me. 16 Therefore, ^arenounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to ^bturn the hearts of the children to their fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children;

And these are the conditions on which LDS going to war with other nations is justified by the Lord:

32 Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy ^afathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles.

33 And again, this is the ^alaw that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them.

34 And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of ^apeace unto that people, nation, or tongue;

35 And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

36 Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them in going out to battle against that nation, tongue, or people.

Furthermore....

President Spencer W. Kimball had this to say:

In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had — in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people — a condition repugnant to the Lord.

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel — ships, planes, missiles, fortifications — and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:44-45).

It is idolatry to "serve" your country and take pride in being awarded a shiney piece of metal and ribbons. It is idolatry to worship parades and military honors, and swell with pride at the pomp.

We, as LDS, are here to serve our God and our fellow man by proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to him, not by bringing death and misery to him or to his family on order of people who call themselves "the government", who send us to kill others in futherence of their personal agendas. And then to celebrate these murderous acts is abhorent to me.

[Calm]

All other countries have substantially less freedom than the United States.

I found in some ways Canada had greater freedom then the US, in other ways not.

[Storm Rider]

It's the serving the country part that is cool, not the killing people part.

Sometimes serving one's country results in going to war; war necessarily means that some are called to kill others. It is amazing that these individuals have accepted such a terrible burden and they are infinitely worthy of our respect and admiration. They serve in our stead; they kill in our stead, they defend in our stead. Their sacrifice is beyond measure. This willingness to serve in such a overwhelming capacity is beyond "cool". Being a pacifist is worthy of respect; however, being one willing to die for their brothers and sisters is much greater in my opinion. When I see pacifists that are running to the front line and willing to die to prevent war, then I will put them on the same level. Until then, it is a bit much to hear their steady clanging of their tired refrains from a position of safety.

[Tacenda]

After watching the latest movie of the take down of Osama, I saw that his children were there while our military swooped in and shot their father. They hate America now worse than ever and will grow up 10 times worse than Osama, IMO. I know he needed justice but would have preferred they had used the justice SYSTEM.

That way they would possibly see the crimes he made put down for all to see instead of making him a martyr.

Down the road it'll take a miracle to have good relations with these people. In our own religion, the MMM was reactionary to Joseph & Hyrum's killing. Our leaders did a mini 9/11. Luckily we didn't lose our way after that horrific episode.

It will probably be America's demise unless God intervenes.

[Ron Beron]

After watching the latest movie of the take down of Osama, I saw that his children were there while our military swooped in and shot their father. They hate America now worse than ever and will grow up 10 times worse than Osama, IMO. I know he needed justice but would have preferred they had used the justice SYSTEM.

That way they would possibly see the crimes he made put down for all to see instead of making him a martyr.

Down the road it'll take a miracle to have good relations with these people. In our own religion, the MMM was reactionary to Joseph & Hyrum's killing. Our leaders did a mini 9/11. Luckily we didn't lose our way after that horrific episode.

It will probably be America's demise unless God intervenes.

Do you really think that if we had not targeted their father the outcome would have been any different? The children would have hated the U.S. in any case.

[Tacenda]

Do you really think that if we had not targeted their father the outcome would have been any different? The children would have hated the U.S. in any case.

We should have put him and the men with him on the helicopter. That's how I believe and believed when it first broke out. We become them when we handle it inhumane like that. Sorry, I know I should feel like probably 99.5 percent out there that are glad it went down like it did. And believe me I've tried to think that way. But feel he shouldn't have been shot in front of his family. Those children will rise up against America like nobody's business one day.

[volgadon]

Did I ever thank you for pointing that song out to me? It's become my favorite Scottish Rebel song.

You're welcome, it is one of my absolute favourites. Also, if you get a chance, read George MacDonald Fraser's MacAuslan stories. They are semi-fictional stories about life in a Highland regiment immediately after WWII. One of the stories is about how the piper played this song each morning to wake the officers.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

And it is also primarily the US Navy which keeps the world's pirates in check.

True...it is amazing those who never served seem to think they know more than those who did. Many of the Nation's mention pose a threat to us and when we are no longer able to oppose them, they will take advantage. It would be nice if the rest of the world did not look to us, but they do. The funny thing are those who believe if we just leave the world alone, the world will do the same for us, but they need not worry soon we will all find out. No one hates war more than those who have to fight it.

[Alan]

ed2276,

Many thanks for your post. Summed up everything I wanted to say.