Former [Mormon] Army Staff Sergeant To Receive Medal Of Honor For Actions In Afghanistan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The "enemies" you fearmonger against today are the enemies the U.S. and the West created by their meddling and occupation in lands not our own.

"I" fear-monger against...don't pretend to know me. The real fact here is people are offended at this guy get the Medal of Honor because they lack honor, so they turned this into a political thread to have it shut down. I served proudly and would do it again. Let's see if any of the critics have the courage to give this young man the praise he deserves and stop using this as an opp to attack America. Edited January 17, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[thesometimesaint]

As a former Army Sargent, I am very insulted. It is called war, one we did not start! If someone was trying to kill those under your command would you just stand by? Must be an America thing.

I'm a former Air Force Sargent. While I admire the great bravery of this fine soldier. We did start the war in Afghanistan. Not one Afghan was involved in the 9/11 tragedy.

[Darren10]

ed2276 #76;

This post will respond to your #76 and addess the subject matter of your other posts.

First off, I do renounce war. It's a terrible, ugly thing. That said though, I rejoice in defending my liberty and the safety of my countrymen. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong in wanting to serve your countr including Clinto Romesha who is the subject o this thread.

Second, I very much agree with the Book of Mormon standard in going to war agianst an enemy as outlined for Nephi. But there's not much of a prohibition in immediately taking up arms and showing a use of force against an enemy. Taking out enemy facilities, for example, which may be producing WMDs is not war though granted it's an aggressive act which can lead to war.

Third, I'm very proud of the United States in how it treats its enemies. The United States was pivotal in rebuilding Japan who bombed Pearl Harbor. today japan is a very strong ally to the United States and we're blessed to have them as such. After conquoring Iraq (and even before which I though was premature but that's another argument), the US initiated the establishent of a democratic government in that country. Same goes for Afghanistan though success varies. These are tesimonies of the benevolence of the United States and her people. Is thisd not demonstrating peace to our enemies even after going to war?

Let's backtrack a bit on President Kimball's remakrs. You may find the talk you referenced here: The False Gods We Worship

The main point of Spencer W. Kimball's article, I think, was clearly made here

Many people spend most of their time working in the service of a self-image that includes sufficient money, stocks, bonds, investment portfolios, property, credit cards, furnishings, automobiles, and the like to guarantee carnal security throughout, it is hoped, a long and happy life. Forgotten is the fact that our assignment is to use these many resources in our families and quorums to build up the kingdom of God—to further the missionary effort and the genealogical and temple work; to raise our children up as fruitful servants unto the Lord; to bless others in every way, that they may also be fruitful. Instead, we expend these blessings on our own desires, and as Moroni said, “Ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not.” (Morm. 8:39.)

In other words, it is not the desire to seek the wealth of the earth which makes one idolatrous but to do so while neglecting to use your resources for the work of the Lord is what qualifies one ot enter into the idolatrous club as a full fledged member. It is in this exact same manner which President Kimball speaks of war and the people's desire for it. In this light, let's repeat your selected quote:

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44–45.)

It is not the desire to serve one's country which Kimball declares idolatrous but by doing so and neglecting to keep the Savior's own commandment as well as modern-day revelation both regarding loving one another. As show above, the United States *does* both fight wars and love its enemy. At this point in time there's lots of history behind that fact. likewise, let's go back to the Book of Mormon:

9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings.

10 The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence, and having labored in all his days for their welfare—

11 Wherefore, the people were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. And whoso should reign in his stead were called by the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, and so forth, according to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were called by the people, let them be of whatever name they would.

12 And it came to pass that Nephi died.

Jacob 1

The people of Nephi loved Nephi for he fought with them and for them, even by the sword. I would not be surprised if he personally took lives during his battles. Note again that the people *loved him* for his military service to them. This is not idolatry, sir. Look previously to Nephi

1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.

3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.

4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

2 Nephi 33

Nephi never neglected his prime duty as a son of God and that was to bring souls to Christ and to build up the kingdom of God. If he did so, and only rejoinced in his military service at the exclusion of his evangelical labors than that would make Nephi an idol worshipper. but, as every primary child knows, Nephi went and did as the Lord commanded.

It is idolatry to "serve" your country and take pride in being awarded a shiney piece of metal and ribbons. It is idolatry to worship parades and military honors, and swell with pride at the pomp.

We, as LDS, are here to serve our God and our fellow man by proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to him, not by bringing death and misery to him or to his family on order of people who call themselves "the government", who send us to kill others in futherence of their personal agendas. And then to celebrate these murderous acts is abhorent to me.

Here is a great article / General Conference talk by Gordon B. Hinkley on how we can be both a saint and a soldier. That there is honor in both.

War and Peace

Sergeant James W. Cawley of the U.S. Marines had been killed somewhere in Iraq. He was 41 years of age, leaving behind a wife and two small children.

Twenty years ago Elder Cawley was a missionary of the Church in Japan. Like so many others, he had grown up in the Church, had played as a schoolboy, had passed the sacrament as a deacon, and had been found worthy to serve a mission, to teach the gospel of peace to the people of Japan. He returned home, served in the Marines, married, became a policeman, and was then recalled to active military duty, to which he responded without hesitation.

His life, his mission, his military service, his death seem to represent the contradictions of the peace of the gospel and the tides of war.

That's an excellent setup by President Hinkley to show that military and missionary service are NOT contradictions.

First, let it be understood that we have no quarrel with the Muslim people or with those of any other faith. We recognize and teach that all the people of the earth are of the family of God. And as He is our Father, so are we brothers and sisters with family obligations one to another.

But as citizens we are all under the direction of our respective national leaders. They have access to greater political and military intelligence than do the people generally. Those in the armed services are under obligation to their respective governments to execute the will of the sovereign. When they joined the military service, they entered into a contract by which they are presently bound and to which they have dutifully responded.

One of our Articles of Faith, which represent an expression of our doctrine, states, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law” (A of F 1:12).

Very well said. Hinkley continues:

But modern revelation states that we are to “renounce war and proclaim peace” (D&C 98:16).

In a democracy we can renounce war and proclaim peace. There is opportunity for dissent. Many have been speaking out and doing so emphatically. That is their privilege. That is their right, so long as they do so legally. However, we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation.

When war raged between the Nephites and the Lamanites, the record states that “the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for … power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

“And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God” (Alma 43:45–46).

The Lord counseled them, “Defend your families even unto bloodshed” (Alma 43:47).

(snip)

It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.

When all is said and done, we of this Church are people of peace. We are followers of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the Prince of Peace. But even He said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matt. 10:34).

This places us in the position of those who long for peace, who teach peace, who work for peace, but who also are citizens of nations and are subject to the laws of our governments. Furthermore, we are a freedom-loving people, committed to the defense of liberty wherever it is in jeopardy. I believe that God will not hold men and women in uniform responsible as agents of their government in carrying forward that which they are legally obligated to do. It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression.

Here here!!!

[Darren10]

We did start the war in Afghanistan.

Oh, please. George W. went waaaaaaay out of his way to justify war in Afghanistan and even more so for Iraq. Now, if you're digging up old history that we propped up the Afghanistan government to fight against Russia, you are correct. But that does NOT place culability upon the US for 9/11 which is why we attacked that country.

We're also propping it up again. Shoul we have just bombed them and left?

[Darren10]

Those children will rise up against America like nobody's business one day.

That will be those kid's choice after they reach the age of accountability and are able to choose their own feelings, actions, and reactions. But they will also be brought up knowing what may happen if you attack the US.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

I found in some ways Canada had greater freedom then the US, in other ways not.

I won't argue that.

[mfbukowski]

If they had similar laws to the USSR, "social parasitism" would have been a criminal offense.

Hey- we need some of those around here lately since we are following in their footsteps with their proven success strategies.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Where did you get the idea that it is noble to "serve" those who send you to kill others? The American People are not servants to the government, or the country. As free individuals, we do not owe this country anything.

Sickening, so that is how you view us a hired killers? Nothing "Noble" in serving your Nation, it is because we are free that to serve is Noble. I guess you think he should be tried for murder?

[thesometimesaint]

Oh, please. George W. went waaaaaaay out of his way to justify war in Afghanistan and even more so for Iraq. Now, if you're digging up old history that we propped up the Afghanistan government to fight against Russia, you are correct. But that does NOT place culability upon the US for 9/11 which is why we attacked that country.

We're also propping it up again. Shoul we have just bombed them and left?

I say leave them alone. If they want to live in the 6th Century let them. We can't undo what has been done, but we can declare victory and come home.

[Darren10]

I say leave them alone. If they want to live in the 6th Century let them. We can't undo what has been done, but we can declare victory and come home.

I won't argue about theneed to come home. I think we tried a great deal there and if they don't accept what we gave them it's their choice but I will not desire to help them further. Also, we've significantly decreased our will to fight. My way of thinking is that if you're not going to use the troops, then don't send them. In other words, if you're not going to fight, than don't go to war.

[Darren10]

But we did not "start" the war in Afghansitan.

[volgadon]

"I" fear-monger against...don't pretend to know me. The real fact here is people are offended at this guy get the Medal of Honor because they lack honor, so they turned this into a political thread to have it shut down. I served proudly and would do it again. Let's see if any of the critics have the courage to give this young man the praise he deserves and stop using this as an opp to attack America.

I'm quite happy to give him the praise he deserves, though I might fall under what you term a critic.

[thesometimesaint]

But we did not "start" the war in Afghansitan.

Yes we did. http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=5166

[Darren10]

Yes we did. http://archive.democ...iew.cfm?id=5166

I canot take that link seriously. Here's the opening paragraph:

PARIS, Nov 15 (IPS) - Under the influence of U.S. oil companies, the government of George W. Bush initially blocked U.S. secret service investigations on terrorism, while it bargained with the Taliban the delivery of Osama bin Laden in exchange for political recognition and economic aid, two French intelligence analysts claim.

The article goes on to say that the US threatened war in Afghanistan, to carpet them with bombs unless they gave us access to their oil? Are you serious?

I checked into Bill Clinton passing up Bin Laden and here's he is on audio admiting it.

I deliberately avoided that phsychotic conspiratist, Alex Jones and his websites to link you this. Here's the original website:

http://archive.newsm...10/181819.shtml

Edited January 17, 2013 by Darren10

[Darren10]

I pasted the address of where your link sourced its story to into my web address bar and so far nothing's popped up except for a network error page. Hmmmmmmm...

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/oneworld/20011115/wl/u_s_policy_towards_taliban_influenced_by_oil_-_say_authors_1.html

[thesometimesaint]

I canot take that link seriously. Here's the opening paragraph:

The article goes on to say that the US threatened war in Afghanistan, to carpet them with bombs unless they gave us access to their oil? Are you serious?

I checked into Bill Clinton passing up Bin Laden and here's he is on audio admiting it.

I deliberately avoided that phsychotic constiratorist, Alex Jones and his websites to link you this. Here's the original website:

http://archive.newsm...10/181819.shtml

Really did happen.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHI203Bp.html

[Alan]

The view from this side of the pond is that the US is very hawkish, and talks itself into waging war very easily. Unfortunately our government generally does the same.

The Bible says that the Lord will judge the nations and I fear for your country and mine when that day comes.

[cinepro]

I wonder why none of those other nations have attacked us. The reason should be self-evident.

The Atlantic and Pacific oceans?