Tower Of Babel

[Rivers]

The towel of Babel story was recently discussed in gospel doctrine class as part of the Brother of Jared story. Now I have a really difficult time understanding the tower of babel story as an account of the origin of language.Are ther any other ways of understanding the Tower of Babel?Are there any good articles out there discussing the tower of babel? This is a something I'm interested in learning more about.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Rivers

[blackstrap]

Do you have a better theory as to the diversity of languages?

[daz2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel also http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_Babel_WTJ.pdf

The book of Ether refers to the time of the great tower when language was "confounded." There is no mention of "Babel", nor that this is the origin of multiple languages. I count about 30 generations listed from Jared until the last of the Jaredites. To me, that suggests a time span of 900 years, give or take. That would put the Ether tower at about 1500 BCE, considerably more recent than the traditional Ussher dating of 2242 BCE. Perhaps the "confounding" and great tower referred to in Ether is different from those mentioned the Hebrew Bible narrative of the tower. Also, Ether is an abridgement of the 24 plates. Perhaps the story of the great tower had been included in the plates of brass, and the abridger used his knowledge of the tower narrative there to flesh out the story of Jared.

I see the story of the tower as a sacred narrative with moral lessons to be learned, just as the story of the garden is a sacred narrative. Perhaps they are accurate in the sense that the events described actually occurred as described. But I don't need to believe in their strict historicity to learn from them, anymore than I need to been in the strict historicity of the Prodigal Son to learn great lessons.

I doubt that the tower narrative is an accurate description of the origin of human language.

[Rivers]

Do you have a better theory as to the diversity of languages?

Of course I do. Languages evolve and diversify over time. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with God intervening and messing people's languages up. The issue is the time period that the Tower of Babel event is supposed to have taken places. Multiple languages existed long before 2200 B.C.

[Rivers]

The book of Ether refers to the time of the great tower when language was "confounded." There is no mention of "Babel", nor that this is the origin of multiple languages. I count about 30 generations listed from Jared until the last of the Jaredites. To me, that suggests a time span of 900 years, give or take. That would put the Ether tower at about 1500 BCE, considerably more recent than the traditional Ussher dating of 2242 BCE. Perhaps the "confounding" and great tower referred to in Ether is different from those mentioned the Hebrew Bible narrative of the tower.

That's an interesting hypothesis.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Rivers

[Maidservant]

In terms of the sacred narrative (leaving aside the historicity or no), the Tower of Babel has always seemed to me to be the opposition of the city of Enoch. I wrote about this briefly here:

http://www.thecityofenoch.com/index.php/two-paths/

If you study on the characteristics of these two structures made by man and by man and God (in the case of the city of Enoch), I think it will be of interest to you.

[blackstrap]

Languages evolve it is true as anyone who has tried to read 12th century English will testify. Linguists have tried to find the " original " language. A lot of the languages that are written from ancient times are difficult to find the actual pronunciations for.

[Freedom]

Hugh Nibley theorized that the languages were not confounded here, but rather events here lead to the confounding of languages. He postulated that a natural disaster such as a famine caused the people to scatter. As a result of this scattering, naturally their languages began to diverge as all do when groups separate It is further argued that this is the history of how one people's language began to diversify, just as the Book of Mormon is the history of how one group came to inhabit the Americas. It is assumed that this is the source of all language but the bible never says this. It is only the source of the diversity of languages among one cultural group.

I believe his comments are found in The World of the Jaradites

Edited December 19, 2012 by Freedom

[bcuzbcuz]

The towel of Babel story was recently discussed in gospel doctrine class as part of the Brother of Jared story. Now I have a really difficult time understanding the tower of babel story as an account of the origin of language.Are ther any other ways of understanding the Tower of Babel?Are there any good articles out there discussing the tower of babel? This is a something I'm interested in learning more about.

The tower of Babel story is a "Just So" story. There is zero evidence of any such tower and the archaeological finds of over 500,000 cuneiform clay tablets from 2500 BCE written in a variety of languages should put to rest any discussion about a building project that ended in language chaos.

Check out the British Museums site with about a half dozen or so languages on cuneiform tablets and there is also a site that has over 120,000 such tablets translated. There are tablets that have been found with similar layout and purpose as the Rosetta Stone, but for Babylonian languages instead. There are a multitude of reseachers who can read such tablets with ease.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Do you have a better theory as to the diversity of languages?

Time and space?

[Closet Doubter]

The tower of Babel story is a "Just So" story. There is zero evidence of any such tower and the archaeological finds of over 500,000 cuneiform clay tablets from 2500 BCE written in a variety of languages should put to rest any discussion about a building project that ended in language chaos.

Check out the British Museums site with about a half dozen or so languages on cuneiform tablets and there is also a site that has over 120,000 such tablets translated. There are tablets that have been found with similar layout and purpose as the Rosetta Stone, but for Babylonian languages instead. There are a multitude of reseachers who can read such tablets with ease.

It is not speculation but is a FACT that many different languages existed prior to the time indicated in the Bible that the tower of Babel occurred. When I read most of the stories contained in the book of Genesis, they read almost exactly the same as what would be known as fables if they weren't contained in the bible. IMHO the book of Genesis is for the most part Biblical Mythology and Joseph Smiths inclusion of the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon where it starts out at the mythical tower of Babel causes me to question the Book of Mormon even more than the inclusion of horses, weapons of steel, and a people that would walk from Central America to upstate New York to kill each other off.

[Freedom]

It is not speculation but is a FACT that many different languages existed prior to the time indicated in the Bible that the tower of Babel occurred. When I read most of the stories contained in the book of Genesis, they read almost exactly the same as what would be known as fables if they weren't contained in the bible. IMHO the book of Genesis is for the most part Biblical Mythology and Joseph Smiths inclusion of the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon where it starts out at the mythical tower of Babel causes me to question the Book of Mormon even more than the inclusion of horses, weapons of steel, and a people that would walk from Central America to upstate New York to kill each other off.

The problem with this argument is that it assumes the bible states that All human languages started at the tower. This is not the case. It was just of the group at the tower and thus only the group that produced the biblical heritage.

[cinepro]

I've heard the theory (don't remember where) that the Tower of Babel was more of a fake Temple (because it's the Temple ordinances that get us to heaven!)

As for the "Two Towers" theory, obviously it's not "doctrine", but official Church publications are pretty unanimous in their assertion that the Jaredites were tied to the biblical Tower of Babel.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/book-of-mormon-time-line?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2b14fd758096b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/student-resources/bofm/book-of-mormon-times-at-a-glance-chart_eng.pdf

[Rivers]

I've heard the theory (don't remember where) that the Tower of Babel was more of a fake Temple (because it's the Temple ordinances that get us to heaven!)

As for the "Two Towers" theory, obviously it's not "doctrine", but official Church publications are pretty unanimous in their assertion that the Jaredites were tied to the biblical Tower of Babel.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/book-of-mormon-time-line?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2b14fd758096b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/student-resources/bofm/book-of-mormon-times-at-a-glance-chart_eng.pdf

Yeah I have heard something similar to that theory. It seems to me that it is best to to think of the tower as something that maybe really existed but not necessarily an origin story for all languages.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Rivers

[Freedom]

Events are recorded in scriptures to teach specific precepts and not to teach history. If we are unable to clearly define the precept being taught then it is impossible to determine the historical accuracy of the story.

[volgadon]

I've heard the theory (don't remember where) that the Tower of Babel was more of a fake Temple (because it's the Temple ordinances that get us to heaven!)

Not as far-fetched a suggestion as it might seem. Look at ziggurats. The temple was what connected heaven and earth.

[thesometimesaint]

https://www.google.com/search?q=tower+of+babel+a+ziggurat&hl=en&client=firefox-beta&hs=bqo&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Re3VUMXiDMLhiAL__IDwDA&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=639

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I recently began reading the Bible with my wife, since we are Restorationist RLDS we use the Inspired Version (full-text of the JST). We actually read about the family groups of Noah's sons tonight and my wife noticed something interesting. It seems that the Bible indicates that there were different tongues among Noah's sons family groups, but the next chapter (Tower of Babel account) indicates there was one language. After thinking about it and rereading the verses several times I concluded that each family group must have had a variation of the original language that was different, but close enough that they could understand each other. At the Tower the Lord confounded their language groups so that they could not understand each other at all.

[blackstrap]

Did Noah only have 3 sons and no daughters? Perhaps the three were the only ones that we willing to follow Noah. If so, they may have come from disparate areas with different dialects.

[theplains]

Languages evolve and diversify over time.

How have Hebrew and Greek evolved over the last 2000 years?

Thanks,

Jim

[canard78]

I've heard the theory (don't remember where) that the Tower of Babel was more of a fake Temple (because it's the Temple ordinances that get us to heaven!)

As for the "Two Towers" theory, obviously it's not "doctrine", but official Church publications are pretty unanimous in their assertion that the Jaredites were tied to the biblical Tower of Babel.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/book-of-mormon-time-line?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2b14fd758096b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/student-resources/bofm/book-of-mormon-times-at-a-glance-chart_eng.pdf

Surely a Two Towers theory is awkward, especially given Tolkein's the only writer who could be described as doing something on a par with a Joseph Smith authorship theory?

Happy Holidays Looking forward to seeing the Hobbit (aka the 116 pages that weren't lost)

[thesometimesaint]

theplains:

http://www.nativlang.com/greek-language/ancient-greek-writing.php

http://www.wisegeek.org/how-different-are-ancient-hebrew-and-modern-hebrew.htm

[canard78]

The problem with this argument is that it assumes the bible states that All human languages started at the tower. This is not the case. It was just of the group at the tower and thus only the group that produced the biblical heritage.

I think this is a very reasonable assertion. I don't think for a minute that all the world was gathered around the tower of babel any more than I think all the world was covered by the flood.

FWIW the Book of Mormon says the whole earth was effected by the earthquakes/fires etc, but no-one has ever suggested there was a synchronised global natural disaster. Because of the context we simply presume they're using it as a turn of phrase about 'the whole earth that they were aware of:'

3 Nep 8:6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

Babel story:

Genesis 11:1 AND the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

And the same for Noah:

Genesis 8: 10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

We don't take the BoM literally as a 'whole earth' - I'm fine with the flood and the tower not being either. Even if Ensign articles say otherwise!

I think this article is simply incorrect:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/the-flood-and-the-tower-of-babel?lang=eng

Fortunately, the Ensign is no more doctrinal than Journal of Discourse. There are no men on the moon. I believe there was not a global flood, not a global gathering at babel, not a global earthquake at the moment mentioned in 3 Nephi.