The Grimace Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Why, then, do unbelievers get so upset when we simply point out the clear and unavoidable implications of their disbelief?Because you are mis-using scriptures to call good people offensive names. Bill, you *know* that calling someone antichrist is not simply application of a technical term; it is offensive to those who are called that.
Tacenda Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) The church has always focused on jesus christ. In fact, the book of mormon became the second witness for Christ and not a witness for Mormon. And the name of christ is in the church's name. Talmage wrote the book Jesus, the Christ years ago. And this is the problem. When one reads the internet and the viewpoints of the critics, the church never mentions christ or is not christ centered. But, this is not true at all. The whole first vision account has christ visiting joseph smith.The communities allow for like minded people to reinforce like minded viewpoints and allow the poster the opportunity to see others who agree with him or her. But are they helpful...? Maybe but maybe not. In the past, people were allowed to go inactive or become a former mormon or express their views in priesthood etc. And through a critical thinking process, either come back to the fold or to remain in their belief system. Now, the idea is to be with like minded individuals for comfort and support.This is true Why Me. I started to believe what the critics were saying, the more time I spent in those communities. I definitely jumped on their bandwagon. It's a struggle not to fall back into that line of thinking. Recently I helped with a ward party. I made a suggestion that we should have a "giving tree" with Angels (children that are recipients of a local food pantry). They were all for it. I see that the more time I spend with members of my ward and less time complaining in those other communities it helps. I was so proud of the generosity of the members in my ward. They took every Angel off the tree and there were several! Edited December 16, 2012 by Tacenda 2
volgadon Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 This is true Why Me. I started to believe what the critics were saying, the more time I spent in those communities. I definitely jumped on their bandwagon. It's a struggle not to fall back into that line of thinking. Recently I helped with a ward party. I made a suggestion that we should have a "giving tree" with Angels put on a tree for the ward party. They were all for it. I see that the more time I spend with members of my ward and less time complaining in those other communities it helps. I was so proud of the generosity of the members in my ward. They took every Angel off the tree and there were several!That sounds intriguing, do you mind elaborating a bit on the giving tree?
Tacenda Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) That sounds intriguing, do you mind elaborating a bit on the giving tree? It's like a Sub for Santa. I read about it in my local newspaper online. They are a food pantry that helps those that are in need. And the recipients are able to apply for help to provide a Christmas for their children. They provide information on their children, age etc. and then their wish list. I then took that info and put it on an Angel cut out for each item and child. These were placed on the tree. Then people take what they can help with and go buy the gift. They are able to deliver the gift to the families or I will if they are unable. It's a great program. Edited December 16, 2012 by Tacenda 2
volgadon Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 It's like a Sub for Santa. I read about it in my local newspaper online. They are a food pantry that helps those that are in need. And they are able to apply for help to provide a Christmas for their childre. They provide information on their children, age etc. and then their wish list. I then took that info and put it on an Angel cut out for each item and child. These were placed on the tree. Then people take what they can help with and go buy the gift. They are able to deliver the gift to the families or I will if they are unable. It's a great program.I like that.
Pahoran Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Why is it unchristlike to point out the implications of their publicly professed disbelief?For all I know Seth Payne and John Dehlin are nice people.All I am doing is analyzing their ideas and their implications. PS You are the one talking about people being unchristlike. Why do you get to judge me?Because he's being "politically correct." And you're not.And political correctness is the modern shibboleth.You see, I don't see anything particularly "new" about New Order Mormons; they've been around since at least the end of the First Century, only they were known as "Laodiceans" back then. Nor do I see anything praiseworthy about allowing the John Dehlins of this world (and they really are of this world) to use their Church membership as some kind of fig leaf to cover their open, systematic and proselytizing apostasy.Regards,Pahoran 1
Scott Lloyd Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 It's like a Sub for Santa. I read about it in my local newspaper online. They are a food pantry that helps those that are in need. And the recipients are able to apply for help to provide a Christmas for their children. They provide information on their children, age etc. and then their wish list. I then took that info and put it on an Angel cut out for each item and child. These were placed on the tree. Then people take what they can help with and go buy the gift. They are able to deliver the gift to the families or I will if they are unable. It's a great program.Giving trees are fairly common here in my neck of the woods. We had one at the ward Christmas party yesterday morning. 1
Calm Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Recently I helped with a ward party. I made a suggestion that we should have a "giving tree" with Angels (children that are recipients of a local food pantry). They were all for it. I see that the more time I spend with members of my ward and less time complaining in those other communities it helps. I was so proud of the generosity of the members in my ward. They took every Angel off the tree and there were several!Great idea.
TAO Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Hrm... I'm getting a problem with the CSS on page 6... I can't read it at all.
TAO Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Recently I helped with a ward party. I made a suggestion that we should have a "giving tree" with Angels (children that are recipients of a local food pantry). They were all for it. I see that the more time I spend with members of my ward and less time complaining in those other communities it helps. I was so proud of the generosity of the members in my ward. They took every Angel off the tree and there were several!We have a giving tree too in our ward =D. Edited December 17, 2012 by TAO
Calm Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Hrm... I'm getting a problem with the CSS on page 6... I can't read it at all.Me too, so I did again what Nemesis (IIRC) suggested...emptied the cache...and then it cleared right up.Add on: It builds up and sticks again quickly though, so just keep 'bailing'. Edited December 17, 2012 by calmoriah
Sleeper Cell Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Maybe, he could just kick the money changers out and make the building more useful in meeting humanity's more pressing needs.IIRC, Jesus kicked the money changers out of the Temple, not out of the market place.As far as making the building “more useful in meeting humanity’s more pressing needs,“ couldn’t you make a similar argument against virtually anything the Church spends in the USA -- including direct assistance to the needy? After all, the Church could probably feed several starving people in the third world for what it takes to feed one person in the US. Wouldn’t feeding several people in the third world be more useful in meeting humanity’s pressing needs than feeding one American? Edited December 17, 2012 by Sleeper Cell 1
Nathair/|\ Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Doesn't it take money to meet those "more pressing needs?" Wouldn't the increased revenue stream from the mall make it possible to meet more of those needs? 2
DBMormon Posted December 17, 2012 Author Posted December 17, 2012 Because he's being "politically correct." And you're not.And political correctness is the modern shibboleth.You see, I don't see anything particularly "new" about New Order Mormons; they've been around since at least the end of the First Century, only they were known as "Laodiceans" back then. Nor do I see anything praiseworthy about allowing the John Dehlins of this world (and they really are of this world) to use their Church membership as some kind of fig leaf to cover their open, systematic and proselytizing apostasy.Regards,PahoranAgreed Pahoran, Call a spade a spade but one should always do so kindly so as to contribute to the opportunity to bring them back. Don't burn bridges, build them.... outside of that you are allowed to disagree and suggest better ways of thinking. 1
Bill Hamblin Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Let's clarify a couple of things, since some of the nincompoops of the universe have marginal comprehension skills.1- Someone else raised the issue of antichrist. I therefore cited scriptures the four occurrences of the word antichrist in the NT (1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3; 2 Jn 1:7) in order to clarify that in scriptural terms an antichrist is one who rejects that Jesus is the Messiah. This is crystal clear from those passages. It has similar meaning in the BOM. It's therefore like anti-Mormon or anti-Communist: one who rejects Jesus' claim to be the Messiah.2- I never called anyone an antichrist. Read my posts. I never called anyone THE Antichrist either. The scriptural meaning of the term has nothing to do with the apocalyptic fantasies of twenty-first century Evangelical pop culture. 3- I noted that some NOMs publicly reject the idea that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ. That is based on their own public statements. People can draw their own conclusions about the implications of this, but the fact is undeniable that rejection of Jesus as the Christ is not uncommon among some NOMs. They seem to believe that the rejection of the Christ is just another way to be an authentic Mormon. I disagree. Edited December 17, 2012 by Bill Hamblin 3
Tacenda Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I give alot of credit to this board for helping me stay LDS. And I've said it before, the ability to speak about true history of the church without hurting testimonies is a lifesaver to me. There was no one for me to discuss my issues, except with non believers. Even the bishop avoided discussing with me atleast through email, at the time I didn't want to meet in his office. He is now my new Stake President. He doesn't mention my email to him about my problems with JS polygamy. But I'm glad I haven't because he would have seen me at my worst. So speaking to you on the board that know all of it yet still have testimonies based on so many things, is so special to me. I'm thankful for the Mods neutrality also. Yes there is a God! Edited December 17, 2012 by Tacenda 2
why me Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) This is true Why Me. I started to believe what the critics were saying, the more time I spent in those communities. I definitely jumped on their bandwagon. It's a struggle not to fall back into that line of thinking. When I read many of the critics posts I wonder if they belonged to the same church that I do because I just don't see what they saw or experienced. I have never seen any member worship Joseph Smith and I have never seen anyone put Joseph Smith ahead of Christ. I have ónly seen Christ and Heavenly Father put in the center of lds worship.But to read antimormon online communities, I have the feeling that mormons are cultish, brainwashed, evil, manipulative with their love bombs, and phoney. Just the opposite from what I have experienced. Now mormons are not perfect by any means but...I don't see any resemblance from what is written on online communities. And this is what I wanted to point out to Biz: online communities can be great but also dangerous in the sense that they exist to confirm one's one bias and because of this, take away a critical thinking capability. We all want confirmation and acceptance and these communities certainly give that. My post that you linked to would most likely get me banned from many of the exmormon, NewOrderMormon or Postmormon sites. Edited December 17, 2012 by why me 2
why me Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 I give alot of credit to this board for helping me stay LDS. And I've said it before, the ability to speak about true history of the church without hurting testimonies is a lifesaver to me. This is what attracted me to this board when it was part of FAIR. The board helped me to see a different take on things than what the critics and exmormons were claiming on the internet. 1
why me Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Even the bishop avoided discussing with me atleast through email, at the time I didn't want to meet in his office. I can understand his reluctance. Many of a bishops' email has been posted on the antimormon forums and laughed at or mocked. If I were a bishop, I would never send an email with any sort of explanation about anything. Too risky.
tyler90az Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Is it not better for a man to partially partake then to not partake at all?
Tacenda Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) This is what attracted me to this board when it was part of FAIR. The board helped me to see a different take on things than what the critics and exmormons were claiming on the internet.Not to be too mushy, but you were always very fair about the things I'd bring up, and it meant alot. You never overreacted to my stupid comments but calmly bore testimony of the 8 witnesses to the BoM. It got annoying sometimes but had an impact. I hope the NOM's or whatever, like me, can get through to the other side with people like you helping them along. Edited December 17, 2012 by Tacenda
Calm Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 I give alot of credit to this board for helping me stay LDS. And I've said it before, the ability to speak about true history of the church without hurting testimonies is a lifesaver to me. There was no one for me to discuss my issues, except with non believers. Even the bishop avoided discussing with me atleast through email, at the time I didn't want to meet in his office. He is now my new Stake President. He doesn't mention my email to him about my problems with JS polygamy. But I'm glad I haven't because he would have seen me at my worst. So speaking to you on the board that know all of it yet still have testimonies based on so many things, is so special to me. I'm thankful for the Mods neutrality also. Yes there is a God!You have been very positive today. It is a great attitude to nurture, especially at this time of year. 1
Calm Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Is it not better for a man to partially partake then to not partake at all?Depends, sometimes being completely away from something is what is needed to finally appreciate its value.
why me Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Not to be too mushy, but you were always very fair about the things I'd bring up, and it meant alot. You never overreacted to my stupid comments but calmly bore testimony of the 8 witnesses to the BoM. It got annoying sometimes but had an impact. I hope the NOM's or whatever, like me, can get through to the other side with people like you helping them along.Your comments weren't stupid at all. In fact, you came across as someone who had questions and outside influences and who was honest in their feelings. And you showed yourself to be open minded in your searching. I am glad that you are at a good place now and see the people in your ward for who they are, good people trying to do the right thing and live the gospel.But of course, they are not perfect...please don't get disappointed in their imperfections.
Stargazer Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 NOM. New Order Mormon. And here all this time I had been thinking this stood for "Name Only Mormon".My mistake.
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