Burning In The Bosom

[pogi]

I think we are often on the same wavelength but when you say something like the "feelings validate the experience and the experience validates the feelings" it becomes very confusing to me. You are saying that there are two "things" - experience and feelings which somehow mutually verify eachother, which to me, makes no sense.

Yeah, the way he was using the word "experience" was getting confusing for me too. I was trying to use the word "experience" as I thought he was trying to use it (endowment of information or knowledge).

That's the way I would put it anyway.

I like the way you put it better.

[mfbukowski]

I think that the problem comes from exmembers who downplay their spiritual experiences to one of pure feelings. Thus, we have the warm fuzzy remarks from some of them. They need to downplay such experiences to a feeling. Members of other churches can claim that we are a burning of a boson church, downplaying such a sensation as absurd.

And yet if you ask them how they know the Bible is true, they either have no answer or appeal to rational historical reasons which is crazy. When they do that I ask them if they know that Jesus is THEIR savior because of historical reasons- and obviously they will not confirm that. If you want to be technical about it, there is no way to prove that the historical person- Jesus- IF he even existed in a way which is provable historically, cannot through historical evidence be shown to be the Son of God and savior of the world.

Typically Evangelicals will admit they know that they are "saved" through the Holy Spirit and if they are ministers, that they are "called" to the ministry by knowing that through the Holy Spirit.

So the bottom line is that they are just as committed to spiritual experience as we are in the long run. No spiritual "calling", no ministers, no inspiration to accept altar calls and declare that Jesus is your savior.

You cannot know he is the savior without the Holy Spirit testifying to you that he is!

[why me]

Let them downplay it. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at by "spiritual experience". Do you mean endowment of knowledge? In every experience that you have listed, there was no doubt feelings accompanying the experience. Alma the younger was very explicit about these feelings.

They do down play it because for them it was just a feeling, a feeling that can be achieved in other places. Such goes their rationalizations. But when we look at the church we can see that the church was founded on spiritual experiences such as the experience of the witnesses. They did not have a feeling but an experience. The same for some of the women who said yes to joseph smith to become a plural wife. They had a spiritual experience which confirmed the principle.

I think that we need to distinguish between a spiritual feeling from a spiritual experience and recognize the difference as such. If not, we are in danger of it all becoming a warm fuzzy at some point in our lives.

Edited December 11, 2012 by why me

[Nofear]

I liked Joseph Smith's comment here. Not so sure about the literal seed vs. not, but the general idea that for some there is a stronger physiological manifestation and in others less so is one that seems to me to be distinctly true.

There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence. (TPJS p.149)

The other one that I find distinctly true is from his last general conference talk, the King Follett Discourse:

You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given my by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more. (TPJS p.355)

An understanding that things are true is a sensory experience -- yet describing that sensory experience is about as likely as describing what salty or sweet is like. For some there are secondary or tertiary manifestations (e.g. burning in the bosom) but the primary influence of the spirit is an experience/manifestation that stands alone and apart.

[mfbukowski]

I think that we need to distinguish between a spiritual feeling from a spiritual experience and recognize the difference as such. If not, we are in danger of it all becoming a warm fuzzy at some point in our lives.

An understanding that things are true is a sensory experience -- yet describing that sensory experience is about as likely as describing what salty or sweet is like. For some there are secondary or tertiary manifestations (e.g. burning in the bosom) but the primary influence of the spirit is an experience/manifestation that stands alone and apart.

I agree with both of you but lean more toward Nofear's position.

I would love to be able to define the difference as suggested by why me. Clearly there is a difference between a full theophany such as Joseph had and a kinda-sorta "burning in the bosom", but there are so many shades of grey between them that I am not sure how we could define any of them precisely.

My tactic has been to show that indeed all faiths, even those which disparage spiritual experience, like the Evangelicals, use spiritual experiences for guidance if they admit it or not.

Clearly every individual who follows a religious path does it for a reason. Many do so because that is how they were raised. That is fine and dandy but if they have had no spiritual feelings that their own tradition is "correct" then they are following the path out of tradition. If that's what they want, fine, but then they are out of the discussion. They HAVE no reason but an accident of birth.

I would suppose that this category of person would include those who believe that history actually accounts for something in religion- that because a faith is old, it must be true, or even the idea that "if it was good enough for my ancestors it is good enough for me". You aren't going to reach these people either. They have made what they consider a "rational" decision to stay or even join a faith for non-religious reasons, because it represents a strong tradition. At least they have made a decision and have a "reason" adequate for their needs.

Then you have the seekers- those who convert to a faith, and I would include there those who were raised in a tradition but became "converted" to that faith all on their own as well. So that would include those born in the church who have developed their own testimonies. Converts and seekers know what religious experience is, and make choices based on those feelings.

Such people really should have no problem understanding what religious experience is and acknowledging that others feel similarly about their respective faiths. Should they argue against other's religious experience they are on thin ice because they are throwing stones while living in glass houses. (how's that for a mixed metaphor?)

But then you have the "my religious experience is better than yours" group and unfortunately I think this is where we are in this discussion. In fact that statement my actually be true, but you will NEVER be able to show anybody that indeed that is the case, that their experience is deficient while yours is true.

It's like saying "my ability to taste honey is better than yours"- how are you going to show that? I suppose if it were a question of color perception or something like that you could devise a test theoretically- but in this case that is not possible. There is no standard to compare religious experiences against!

So I think in discussions like this we are limited to just being able to show how the other person also uses religious experience as a guide in their lives and leave it at that. We may be convinced that OUR experience is better, but there is no way to show that without at the very LEAST sounding totally arrogant.

We may be totally correct- but we cannot show that we are, so I prefer to leave that a moot point and rely on other types of persuasion.

[Fly Fisherman]

Yes. I have had a burning in the bosom. Only once. About 5 years ago. I was praying about something in my Patriarchal Blessing, and after months of my own analysis, I asked God if my conclusion about the thing in my blessing were true. I received the burning - a real, hot, caloric, burning. It was definetely heat - but was not uncomfortable in the least. In fact, it was beautiful and even though it was a physical, caloric burning, it was also spiritual. Only God can do this - a caloric burning that wasn't painful or uncomfortable. It was then that I realized that "bosom" is centered right in the heart. I had always thought the burning would be centered more in the stomach, if I were to ever experience such a thing. But it is definitely in the heart area of the body.

I think the reason God gave me this experience was for two reasons:

1) To begin a series of personal revelations regarding the subject - God was getting my attention and announcing to me that more was to come.

This is a pattern similar to Elijah in the Old Testament ( http://www.lds.org/m...-voice?lang=eng ) only his was a real fire, mine was a "fire" in the bosom."After the fire, a still, small voice." This pattern occurs in the scriptures in other places (see Helaman 5, for exammple).

2) To let me know that He was really confirming the answer. To this day, I have struggled with this answer (the meaning in the blessing) for personal reasons. Every time I have doubt, I come back to this burning in the bosom experience.

I do not think that a physical, caloric burning is always needed. Nor should it be expected. God will grant this experience to whomever He wills. It isn't necessarily "superior" to other experiences. The still, small voice is by far the most common experience of the Holy Ghost to me. This burning experience was unique.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Fly Fisherman

[inquiringmind]

What do you think of this?

Does The Holy Spirit Actually Burn? Yes (:?

Okay, So I'm a Messianic Jew (we believe in Jesus and God FYI) and whenever we all pray for each other or when our Rabi prays over us, every ones cheeks get red even the little children (it's so cute but anyways). I feel Real heat on my face and on the back of my neck. Also my heart beats so loud and fast I can hear it. My mom felt the same way as well as the others. We asked our friends and they said it was the Holy Spirit. It was really amazing so if any one was wondering what it feels like that how it feels like to us. P.s I feel so I happy after church I feel as if I'm floating. ( Also,No I'm not a Paranoid person so )

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

Wow! HaShem is really acting! That is great! You are the second person who has received Him and who shared it on Yahoo Answers this week. "Burn" is a very strong word, but yes when He touches you he wrapped you in His warm (very warm) embrace. I remember after my baptism in the Spirit, I felt warm even outside in the midst of winter and my classmates saw it on my face and they asked me if I was in love with somebody. I laughed and I told them.

Did you also received the gift of tongues? (1) You see, just to make sure it really was the Holy Spirit as nobody prayed over me, I prayed. When I spoke in an unknown and strange tongue through my lips and gave me a strange tongue I could not understand. But I was in awe and felt total bliss.

And I felt on fire for Him. Make sure to nourish your spirit with G-dliness. So now, keep reading, praying, fasting and witnessing.

There are many ways to receive this baptism:

―No sensation.

―Light sensation

―Warm feeling

―Lightning kind of sensation

―Feeling of being anointed by the oil on our forehead or head. Etc.

There is no rules. I felt Him very strongly and had several emotional healings as a result.

(1) About the true gift of tongue, and not the babbling which every one can receive at one's baptism, it can help you speak in a foreign tongue while you are speaking in your native language. There is also another charism which is the interpretation and permits the receiver to understand others in their languages. I have received this one. I realized it when I went for a trip with Taizé. My allocated family was speaking another language which I had never spoken. I was with 2 other French people and 1 person who was bilingual. But once he could not understand what the lady said and I told him. It sounded so natural.

Source(s):

I have received mine in 1992. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea…

http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/…

http://www.frtommylane.com/bible/enjoyin…

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Edited December 11, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Walden]

I often wonder if it is good to talk about these things or not and can't decide. On one hand I think these descriptions give hope for those who have not experienced these things, but on the other, we have Monster's thread speaking about his feeling that he has never had such an experience and he now expresses a kind of sorrow I think that God has perhaps abandoned him. It's not that he quite said it that way, but I think that is the underlying feeling I got from his posts on that thread.

Everyone experiences these things differently and then describes them still in other ways.

I think some may get a very subtle feeling perhaps as Elder Oaks describes where others feel it more tangibly.

But for all there is a quiet certainty and peace that the course they have decided to set is "right". It's kind of like when you first find your spouse, and you are sitting on the couch together somewhere holding hands maybe, and you just feel that all is right with the world and you are where you are supposed to be. It's a feeling of being at home, in the right place and the right time, a feeling of belonging. I think that is the common denominator that all these experiences have.

That kind of peace and joy can be very intense or very quiet and subtle but I think indeed that is the common denominator.

I tend to agree with mfbukowski here, when he states that "I often wonder if it is good to talk about these things or not and can't decide. On one hand I think these descriptions give hope for those who have not experienced these things, but on the other, we have Monster's thread speaking about his feeling that he has never had such an experience and he now expresses a kind of sorrow I think that God has perhaps abandoned him. It's not that he quite said it that way, but I think that is the underlying feeling I got from his posts on that thread."

I am a former LDS member, born into a devout family and raised in the church from birth. Growing up in the church, I attend Sacrament meeting weekly, participated in the youth activities and Scouts, received the Aaronic priesthood, received a patriarchal blessing, performed baptisms for the dead in the temple, was a leader of all of my Aaronic priesthood groups, attended seminary regularly, read scriptures daily and fasted often, and did my best to fully believe in the religious principles and practices with which my devoutly LDS parents raised me.

Today, I am an atheist. And I am a happy atheist.

When I look back on my transformation from budding LDS lifer to avowed atheist, my biggest hurdle, and the wedge that was my final breaking point in the LDS faith was the simple lack of spiritual confirmation that the LDS church was the true church. I spent the better part of my young religious life searching for that "burning in the bosom," that "lightbulb" moment when all that I had been taught would be confirmed by the spirit as the truth.

My inability to achieve such a clarifying moment caused me great troubles and was the eventual catalyst in my departure from the LDS faith. I struggled mightily in my youth to achieve/receive such an experience as the "burning in the bosom" that was the cornerstone of faith for every devout and believing Mormon that I knew. I prayed and I fasted and I studied and read the scriptures (both the bible and the BoM), and did my best to be the type of faithful servant that might receive a spiritual confirmation.

I struggled for 20+ years to receive an confirmational experience and learn for myself the truth of Moroni's promise. I never did have a "burning in the bosom" experience or any spiritual confirmation that I was ever able to detect. Likewise, Moroni's promise never did come to fruition for me.

Despite what TBMs would like to believe regarding those who have left the faith, I did not leave in order to sin or because the LDS rules/lifestyle/expectations were just too tough.

I left the church for my own sanity, as I was driving myself nuts in the chase for that "burning in the bosom" and that fulfillment of Moroni's promise.

[pogi]

I tend to agree with mfbukowski here, when he states that "I often wonder if it is good to talk about these things or not and can't decide. On one hand I think these descriptions give hope for those who have not experienced these things, but on the other, we have Monster's thread speaking about his feeling that he has never had such an experience and he now expresses a kind of sorrow I think that God has perhaps abandoned him. It's not that he quite said it that way, but I think that is the underlying feeling I got from his posts on that thread."

I am a former LDS member, born into a devout family and raised in the church from birth. Growing up in the church, I attend Sacrament meeting weekly, participated in the youth activities and Scouts, received the Aaronic priesthood, received a patriarchal blessing, performed baptisms for the dead in the temple, was a leader of all of my Aaronic priesthood groups, attended seminary regularly, read scriptures daily and fasted often, and did my best to fully believe in the religious principles and practices with which my devoutly LDS parents raised me.

Today, I am an atheist. And I am a happy atheist.

When I look back on my transformation from budding LDS lifer to avowed atheist, my biggest hurdle, and the wedge that was my final breaking point in the LDS faith was the simple lack of spiritual confirmation that the LDS church was the true church. I spent the better part of my young religious life searching for that "burning in the bosom," that "lightbulb" moment when all that I had been taught would be confirmed by the spirit as the truth.

My inability to achieve such a clarifying moment caused me great troubles and was the eventual catalyst in my departure from the LDS faith. I struggled mightily in my youth to achieve/receive such an experience as the "burning in the bosom" that was the cornerstone of faith for every devout and believing Mormon that I knew. I prayed and I fasted and I studied and read the scriptures (both the bible and the BoM), and did my best to be the type of faithful servant that might receive a spiritual confirmation.

I struggled for 20+ years to receive an confirmational experience and learn for myself the truth of Moroni's promise. I never did have a "burning in the bosom" experience or any spiritual confirmation that I was ever able to detect. Likewise, Moroni's promise never did come to fruition for me.

Despite what TBMs would like to believe regarding those who have left the faith, I did not leave in order to sin or because the LDS rules/lifestyle/expectations were just too tough.

I left the church for my own sanity, as I was driving myself nuts in the chase for that "burning in the bosom" and that fulfillment of Moroni's promise.

I can appreciate your experience, I have many friends and family in the same place as you. I don't doubt their previous faith, I don't doubt their sincerity in their search, I don't doubt that they were praying hard enough or reading the scriptures enough, I don't doubt that they were righteous enough, but I do doubt that they have never felt the spirit. I can't tell you how easy it is to forget, especially in spiritual matters. I can't tell you how important that a journal has been to me in recording and remembering my spiritual experiences. I know that my friends and family at one point claimed to believe through divine witness in one sort or another. They simply forgot or doubted their experience because it didn't seem reasonable and logical to them. They started searching for reasons to disbelieve instead of reasons to believe, that is one sure way to forget (as the scriptures put it) your spiritual experiences and lose testimony. Doubt, in a moment of questioning (I question myself, but I maintain hope instead of doubt) will exterminate all spiritual understanding or memory quicker than anything. Spiritual remembering is a delicate matter. I like man's logic, but I don't trust it over my own experiences.

Forgive me if I sound judgmental that is not my intent, I am trying to find understanding for myself as to why they doubt when they once believed and bore strong testimony, doubting not. Is your experience different? Did you once truly believe to have felt the spirit and have answers to prayers?

Edited December 12, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Spiritual remembering is a delicate matter. I like man's logic, but I don't trust it over my own experiences.

See now if you were a Pragmatist you could have both.

[Walden]

I can appreciate your experience, I have many friends and family in the same place as you. I don't doubt their previous faith, I don't doubt their sincerity in their search, I don't doubt that they were praying hard enough or reading the scriptures enough, I don't doubt that they were righteous enough, but I do doubt that they have never felt the spirit. I can't tell you how easy it is to forget, especially in spiritual matters. I can't tell you how important that a journal has been to me in recording and remembering my spiritual experiences. I know that my friends and family at one point claimed to believe through divine witness in one sort or another. They simply forgot or doubted their experience because it didn't seem reasonable and logical to them. They started searching for reasons to disbelieve instead of reasons to believe, that is one sure way to forget (as the scriptures put it) your spiritual experiences and lose testimony. Doubt, in a moment of questioning (I question myself, but I maintain hope instead of doubt) will exterminate all spiritual understanding or memory quicker than anything. Spiritual remembering is a delicate matter. I like man's logic, but I don't trust it over my own experiences.

Forgive me if I sound judgmental that is not my intent, I am trying to find understanding for myself as to why they doubt when they once believed and bore strong testimony, doubting not. Is your experience different? Did you once truly believe to have felt the spirit and have answers to prayers?

Forgive me if I sound judgmental that is not my intent, I am trying to find understanding for myself as to why they doubt when they once believed and bore strong testimony, doubting not. Is your experience different? Did you once truly believe to have felt the spirit and have answers to prayers?

No, I don't think that you sound judgmental. You actually sound like someone who has really given thought to the loss of faith and rejects the knee-jerk reactions that some LDS members seem to have that leads them to think that the loss of faith must be the result of sin, a desire to sin, lack of desire in obtaining a testimony, etc.

As for my personal experience, I remember having doubt from a very young age, as early as my baptism at 8 years of age....I know, hard for some to imagine doubt at such a young age. Throughout my youth, I attempted to quiet those doubts through church activity, study, prayer and fasting, but I was never able to fully escape that sense of doubt. It caused me great stress throughout my youth.

I am open to the possibility that I may have felt the spirit in the past but misunderstood or misread the experience (despite my atheism, I very much accept the fact that I could be completely wrong regarding the god question, and thus I don't absolutely rule out spiritual experience). Maybe I had been searching too hard for that "burning in the bosom" instead of seeking the "still small voice." This is precisely why I agree with mfbukowski's view that "these descriptions give hope for those who have not experienced these things, but on the other, we have Monster's thread speaking about his feeling that he has never had such an experience and he now expresses a kind of sorrow I think that God has perhaps abandoned him. It's not that he quite said it that way, but I think that is the underlying feeling I got from his posts on that thread."

[Stargazer]

While I cannot say I have felt this burning in the bosom very clearly, I can defintely report this opposite, namely the stupor of thought.

I remember this very clearly. There was something that required a decision to be made, and I considered the matter and decided upon one course of action. I decided to pray about it, just to be sure. So in my evening prayer I brought the matter forward and tried to ask the Lord if He was OK with it, but as soon as I started to explain it, suddenly I could not bring the words forward to say them. It was like I was suddenly mute -- the words were there, and I knew what they were, but I could not say them nor think them. It was most peculiar. I struggled with this for a few seconds, getting nowhere, until I suddenly realized what was happening. At this point my thoughts were released and I could again think and say words. So I finished my prayer, thanking the Lord for the clarification on the matter.

It turned out well. I don't want to get into details because it is rather personal, but had I gone my way I believe I would have regretted it.

[pogi]

Forgive me if I sound judgmental that is not my intent, I am trying to find understanding for myself as to why they doubt when they once believed and bore strong testimony, doubting not. Is your experience different? Did you once truly believe to have felt the spirit and have answers to prayers?

No, I don't think that you sound judgmental. You actually sound like someone who has really given thought to the loss of faith and rejects the knee-jerk reactions that some LDS members seem to have that leads them to think that the loss of faith must be the result of sin, a desire to sin, lack of desire in obtaining a testimony, etc.

As for my personal experience, I remember having doubt from a very young age, as early as my baptism at 8 years of age....I know, hard for some to imagine doubt at such a young age. Throughout my youth, I attempted to quiet those doubts through church activity, study, prayer and fasting, but I was never able to fully escape that sense of doubt. It caused me great stress throughout my youth.

I am open to the possibility that I may have felt the spirit in the past but misunderstood or misread the experience (despite my atheism, I very much accept the fact that I could be completely wrong regarding the god question, and thus I don't absolutely rule out spiritual experience). Maybe I had been searching too hard for that "burning in the bosom" instead of seeking the "still small voice." This is precisely why I agree with mfbukowski's view that "these descriptions give hope for those who have not experienced these things, but on the other, we have Monster's thread speaking about his feeling that he has never had such an experience and he now expresses a kind of sorrow I think that God has perhaps abandoned him. It's not that he quite said it that way, but I think that is the underlying feeling I got from his posts on that thread."

Thanks for sharing. Help me to better understand doubt. Do you feel that you chose to doubt or did doubt choose you? Did you ever have hope? Do you feel like hope is something that you can choose? Do you believe that it is possible to question something while remaining open, without doubting and retaining hope, believing that you may never "know" fully in this life?

[Walden]

While I cannot say I have felt this burning in the bosom very clearly, I can defintely report this opposite, namely the stupor of thought.

I remember this very clearly. There was something that required a decision to be made, and I considered the matter and decided upon one course of action. I decided to pray about it, just to be sure. So in my evening prayer I brought the matter forward and tried to ask the Lord if He was OK with it, but as soon as I started to explain it, suddenly I could not bring the words forward to say them. It was like I was suddenly mute -- the words were there, and I knew what they were, but I could not say them nor think them. It was most peculiar. I struggled with this for a few seconds, getting nowhere, until I suddenly realized what was happening. At this point my thoughts were released and I could again think and say words. So I finished my prayer, thanking the Lord for the clarification on the matter.

It turned out well. I don't want to get into details because it is rather personal, but had I gone my way I believe I would have regretted it.

I don't discount your experience in the slightest. I had the opposite experience.

In my early twenties, as I was making a strong push to gain a testimony and forsake my doubt once and for all, I came to a crossroads regarding an issue that greatly troubled me personally, but for which I already knew the lord's answer and directive. Though this directive went against my own, personal and political views, at the time I was striving greatly to follow the lord's directives, and thus I chose to follow the lord's directive and told him that I would do so enthusiastically, and only asked for his comfort and confirmation that what I was doing was right (I don't want to get too personal here, but if you knew the issue I was contemplating, you would know that there is no room for error regarding god's will in this particular matter). I specifically asked him for a sense of peace and comfort in following his will, and not my own. After following his will, I never did receive the slightest sense of comfort, and in fact, after following his will, I found myself more conflicted and troubled than ever before.

That was the beginning of the end for me.

[Stargazer]

I don't discount your experience in the slightest. I had the opposite experience.

In my early twenties, as I was making a strong push to gain a testimony and forsake my doubt once and for all, I came to a crossroads regarding an issue that greatly troubled me personally, but for which I already knew the lord's answer and directive. Though this directive went against my own, personal and political views, at the time I was striving greatly to follow the lord's directives, and thus I chose to follow the lord's directive and told him that I would do so enthusiastically, and only asked for his comfort and confirmation that what I was doing was right (I don't want to get too personal here, but if you knew the issue I was contemplating, you would know that there is no room for error regarding god's will in this particular matter). I specifically asked him for a sense of peace and comfort in following his will, and not my own. After following his will, I never did receive the slightest sense of comfort, and in fact, after following his will, I found myself more conflicted and troubled than ever before.

That was the beginning of the end for me.

I once got a feeling of peace over doing something that turned out very badly. The only explanation I had for it was that in the issue in question I had already made my bed and the Lord expected me to lay in it.

I cannot deny the spiritual experiences I have had that have led me to where I am, but I cannot understand why someone who honestly seeks after spiritual confirmation does not receive it.

The only way out of this is that I have heard it said that there are some men (or women) who are kept from a knowledge of the truth because the Lord needs them more outside the Church. The one example I have is Alexander Doniphan. He even received a patriarchal blessing from Joseph Smith, Sr, I believe, but never joined the Church. And in his capacity as a non-member he benefited the Church more than he could have as a member.

Don't know where this puts you, however. And I am sorry that it has worked out this way for you.

[Walden]

Thanks for sharing. Help me to better understand doubt. Do you feel that you chose to doubt or did doubt choose you? Did you ever have hope? Do you feel like hope is something that you can choose? Do you believe that it is possible to question something while remaining open, without doubting and retaining hope, believing that you may never "know" fully in this life?

I can only speak to my personal interpretation and experience with hope and doubt, but in my youth, I would have definitely been of the impression that I did not choose doubt, but rather, doubt chose me. In fact, doubt was my greatest enemy in youth, and I did all that I knew how to do, and was taught to do (pray, study, fast) to chase away this doubt. Doubt troubled me greatly in youth. I clung to the hope that I could overcome my doubt, and the hope that the church was true and that god lived and loved us all, but as I got older, hope seemed to fade as doubts intensified and certain truths became fixed in my mind.

Yes, I do believe that hope is something that we can choose. However, I don't believe that by choosing hope we can then just write off truths that do not coincide with our hopes. I know that it is highly offensive to believers to equate Santa Claus and God, and that is not my purpose or intent at all, but it presents an easy analogy regarding hope and truth, if you will bear with me......as a young child, I had great hope that there was indeed a Santa Claus. I had many doubts as I grew older, which increased as I heard others around me whisper that Santa wasn't true, but I replaced those doubts with hope because I really wanted Santa to be true. In the end, despite all of my hope, I came to realize the truth, that Santa was not real. I chose to hope, but my hope had no bearing on the actual truth. Again, I apologize for the offensive Santa/God analogy, but this is the easiest way to explain my view of hope versus doubt (not meaning to argue in any way Santa versus God, so, for other posters, please don't derail this thread on such a tangent).

[pogi]

I specifically asked him for a sense of peace and comfort in following his will, and not my own. After following his will, I never did receive the slightest sense of comfort, and in fact, after following his will, I found myself more conflicted and troubled than ever before.

That was the beginning of the end for me.

I know what you are talking about when you speak of not receiving peace and comfort when following his will, even when you ask for it. I can assure you that following God's will does not always equal peace and comfort. There will indeed be suffering, this is promised and to be expected. No pain, no gain, as they say. I think that there is a lot of truth to that saying. I have experienced pain beyond what I would wish on anybody in following Christ. What I have learned and experienced through enduring this suffering for Christ, I would not give for anything. I would not expect it to happen any other way.

[pogi]

I clung to the hope that I could overcome my doubt, and the hope that the church was true and that god lived and loved us all, but as I got older, hope seemed to fade as doubts intensified and certain truths became fixed in my mind.

We all have certain truths that become fixed in our minds, they are as real and as powerful as anything. I don't blame you for believing those truths, just like I believe my truths. When two people have opposing truths, can they both be right? Sometimes all we can do is hope in one or the other.

I understand your analogy with Santa, and I think it is a fair one. You mention that you are open to the possibility that you may have experienced the Spirit previously. Are you open to the possibility that Santa Clause ever brought you presents? One is possible for you, the other is absolutely not. You can still have hope in God, you cannot have hope in Santa, that is the difference as I see it. As long as hope is possible, God is possible to you.

Sometimes our hope in God is diminished or extinguished through failed expectations and suffering. When one expects suffering, it becomes increasingly difficult to explain away or doubt in the spirit.

Edited December 13, 2012 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

As for my personal experience, I remember having doubt from a very young age, as early as my baptism at 8 years of age....I know, hard for some to imagine doubt at such a young age. Throughout my youth, I attempted to quiet those doubts through church activity, study, prayer and fasting, but I was never able to fully escape that sense of doubt. It caused me great stress throughout my youth.

I am open to the possibility that I may have felt the spirit in the past but misunderstood or misread the experience (despite my atheism, I very much accept the fact that I could be completely wrong regarding the god question, and thus I don't absolutely rule out spiritual experience). Maybe I had been searching too hard for that "burning in the bosom" instead of seeking the "still small voice." This is precisely why I agree with mfbukowski's view that "these descriptions give hope for those who have not experienced these things, but on the other, we have Monster's thread speaking about his feeling that he has never had such an experience and he now expresses a kind of sorrow I think that God has perhaps abandoned him. It's not that he quite said it that way, but I think that is the underlying feeling I got from his posts on that thread."

It's just always been something I have thought about that what some of us call "red" may be perceived by others the way we perceive "blue". Some people cannot stand the taste of certain foods while others cannot imagine why something so delicious should taste so terrible to others. Some paint their houses in colors which are laughable to others. Yet we all have eyes and tastebuds which are nearly identical, we have brains and learn language and learn what to call different experiences.

I honestly think that calling a feeling a "burning in the bosom", though it may feel that way to some, may feel quite differently to others and perhaps the name itself throws some off, understandably.

I prefer to use perhaps vaguer terms but terms which perhaps communicate to a larger audience though what we each feel I am sure is individual to all of us.

Walden, surely you have felt love and a sense of peace, a sense of belonging and the feeling that "all is right with the world". Some feel the spirit this way as they have reflected on Godly matters.

I think the very fact that you hold yourself open to these matters and have not closed yourself off entirely speaks a great deal toward your willingness to find the spirit and I am confident that someday you will. Just stay open to the possibility. I honestly think it is a question of calling "blue" what the rest of us call "red", but the exact words are impossible to express any more than it is possible to express the sound of a musical instrument the other has never heard, or describing the difference in the sound of a trumpet and a French horn.

[mfbukowski]

As for my personal experience, I remember having doubt from a very young age, as early as my baptism at 8 years of age....I know, hard for some to imagine doubt at such a young age. Throughout my youth, I attempted to quiet those doubts through church activity, study, prayer and fasting, but I was never able to fully escape that sense of doubt. It caused me great stress throughout my youth.

I was thinking about this again today prompted by another post on another thread, and I was thinking that doubt is actually part of faith. They are two sides of the same coin and I think no one ever totally loses it. I think until we "wake up dead" and actually know that we are dead (will we have to take that on faith? ) no one will absolutely know for sure. I myself am "certain" of my experiences spiritually and otherwise but suppose I am actually a brain in a vat or some such silly thing? Can I be absolutely certain? Of course not. Can I be certain that I will not be electrocuted by my computer in the next 5 minutes due to a lightning strike or that an earthquake will not topple the cabinet next to me and kill me in the next 30 seconds? Of course not. I could have a stroke or a gas line could blow up next door- I mean there are thousands of uncertainties every minute of every day.

But we persist in making plans and acting as if our plans will come to pass. We plan for the kid's education and retirement with no certainty that any of these things will come to pass.

Why not make a similar leap of faith and act as if there IS a God? What harm will result? That I think is exactly what was happening here: (Mark 9)

²³ Jesus said to him, “If you can believe,^[a] all things are possible to him who believes.”

²⁴ Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

Edited December 13, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Walden]

Pogi and mfbukoswski, I appreciate the civility and understanding that you have presented regarding my experiences in faith and doubt and in my leaving the LDS religion and belief in general. It has been an enlightening and refreshing conversation.

Pogi, regarding your views on suffering in following Christ, I find them interesting and applicable. I guess that I just always considered Christ to be this great comforter, to provide peace and serenity, particularly when one when one chooses His will over their own will. That experience that I recalled in an earlier post was thus so confusing to me. Maybe that is why after leaving the LDS church, and studying various other religions, I veered towards Buddhism, whose first Truth is "life is suffering."

"Sometimes our hope in God is diminished or extinguished through failed expectations and suffering. When one expects suffering, it becomes increasingly difficult to explain away or doubt in the spirit." After embracing Buddhism a few years post-Mormon, I came to fully embrace the notion that life is suffering, though I found the Buddhist lessons on alleviating suffering (the Eightfold Path) to be much more applicable, much more pertinent, much more effective, and thus, in my perspective, much more truthful than any path to true inner peace that I had ever learned in the LDS/Christian spectrum.

And mfbukowski, I see your point regarding the uncertainties of life, as well as the hereafter, and I've often wondered myself why it is that I cannot just make a "leap of faith and act as if there IS a God? What harm will result?" Maybe I am just too stubborn, but I like to think that that it has more to do with my desire to lead an authentic life, one of integrity and truth, in which I try to peel away the layers of illusion in an attempt to discover my true self and the nature of truth (I am a big fan of Plato's Allegory of the Cave). I know that sounds grandiose and admittedly pompous, but isn't that we are all trying to do in our own way, in our discussions and ponderings and musings on religion and experience and the perception of truth and the meaning of life? To find truth? In my early twenties, I did make that leap of faith that you describe, and reapplied myself to the LDS faith and acted and practiced as if there was a god, despite my own doubts. In the end, it led to misery for me, due to a constant internal struggle going back to my yearning to lead an authentic existence, one that holds truth for me.

[mfbukowski]

Pogi and mfbukoswski, I appreciate the civility and understanding that you have presented regarding my experiences in faith and doubt and in my leaving the LDS religion and belief in general. It has been an enlightening and refreshing conversation.

Pogi, regarding your views on suffering in following Christ, I find them interesting and applicable. I guess that I just always considered Christ to be this great comforter, to provide peace and serenity, particularly when one when one chooses His will over their own will. That experience that I recalled in an earlier post was thus so confusing to me. Maybe that is why after leaving the LDS church, and studying various other religions, I veered towards Buddhism, whose first Truth is "life is suffering."

"Sometimes our hope in God is diminished or extinguished through failed expectations and suffering. When one expects suffering, it becomes increasingly difficult to explain away or doubt in the spirit." After embracing Buddhism a few years post-Mormon, I came to fully embrace the notion that life is suffering, though I found the Buddhist lessons on alleviating suffering (the Eightfold Path) to be much more applicable, much more pertinent, much more effective, and thus, in my perspective, much more truthful than any path to true inner peace that I had ever learned in the LDS/Christian spectrum.

And mfbukowski, I see your point regarding the uncertainties of life, as well as the hereafter, and I've often wondered myself why it is that I cannot just make a "leap of faith and act as if there IS a God? What harm will result?" Maybe I am just too stubborn, but I like to think that that it has more to do with my desire to lead an authentic life, one of integrity and truth, in which I try to peel away the layers of illusion in an attempt to discover my true self and the nature of truth (I am a big fan of Plato's Allegory of the Cave). I know that sounds grandiose and admittedly pompous, but isn't that we are all trying to do in our own way, in our discussions and ponderings and musings on religion and experience and the perception of truth and the meaning of life? To find truth? In my early twenties, I did make that leap of faith that you describe, and reapplied myself to the LDS faith and acted and practiced as if there was a god, despite my own doubts. In the end, it led to misery for me, due to a constant internal struggle going back to my yearning to lead an authentic existence, one that holds truth for me.

I honestly think that God leads us to the path that will ultimately bring us closer to him, and that this life is but a preparation for what comes after where real progression is possible. I believed that as a Catholic, I believed it as a Buddhist, I believed it humanistically as an agnostic/atheist communist and I believe it as a Mormon. It sound to me that you are a born Buddhist. It fits your whole approach.

Just think- IF Mormonism is correct- and if you follow the Buddhist path here on this earth, you will wake up on the other side with more knowledge, and earnestly stand before God and say -"Wow- the Mormons were right- can I hang around and learn some more"? And God will say "Of course my son! You know that your earth journey was for you to find the best path to return to me and you found YOUR best path.... but there is more to learn! Follow me...."

And guess what? If Buddhism is the correct path, there won't be any "God" but we will have essentially the same result. We will continue our journey toward the truth.

(That is one of the reasons I like Mormonism so much) Of course if the Evangelicals are right, we will wake up dead and wonder who turned the heat on.....

But I don't think there is much possibility of that happening- not if there actually IS a loving God- and it there isn't all bets are off anyway, right?

Have you heard of Huston Smith? You should read some of his stuff. It's also on youtube. He's a kind of "all religions are the same" guy. Interesting stuff!

And I totally get what you are saying about being your "authentic self"- you can NEVER NEVER give that away! It is all you have!

Edited December 13, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Cr@ig P@xton]

The burning of the bosom that is exprienced throughout the various religious sects of the world seems to be a very human expereince available to all humans both LDS and otherwise.

At the time that I experienced this burning sensation as a believing member of the LDS Church, I was under the impression that it was something quite unique to Mormonism and something that could be relied upon to comfirm LDS truth claims. I had also been taught in church that those outside of the LDS Chuch who claimed similar experiences in their religious communities were not feeling the same burning sensation that was being experienced among the Mormon faithful. Those that claimed such were merely being manipulated by satan...who could duplicate this expereince for his own evil designs This seemed odd to me but I accepted this explaination.

It was years later that I learned that as humans our brains manifacture this expereince and that satan and god have nothing to do with it...it's purely part of our human evolutionary expereince.

There is an interesting TED talk on this subject that I found very helpful in explaining how the human brain manifactures these experiences. The talk by Neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor...describes these very human feelings she experienced as a result of a stroke...it was a facinating presentation.

While I accept that as humans we can create these burning sensations within the Mormon experience...to subscribe these emotional triggers as God somehow confirming LDS truth claims becomes somewhat suspect once we fully understand that the human brain can be manipulated by external programming and emotional triggers to produce this same burning sensation that God offers to also confirm His truth claims. So its not as clear as we might like or want it to be.

[thesometimesaint]

Post hoc ad hoc.

[Kevin Christensen]

The burning of the bosom that is exprienced throughout the various religious sects of the world seems to be a very human expereince available to all humans both LDS and otherwise.

Alma 29 explains that God gives to all people all that he sees fit for them to have. Nephi explains that God "remembers the heathen." Moroni explains that the light of Christ is given to all. And the Bible describes the burning experience, which of course, means that it is a human experience. So exclusive, narrow claims don't come on a particularly solid foundation. Such claims are fairly easy to knock down, however.

At the time that I experienced this burning sensation as a believing member of the LDS Church, I was under the impression that it was something quite unique to Mormonism and something that could be relied upon to comfirm LDS truth claims. I had also been taught in church that those outside of the LDS Chuch who claimed similar experiences in their religious communities were not feeling the same burning sensation that was being experienced among the Mormon faithful. Those that claimed such were merely being manipulated by satan...who could duplicate this expereince for his own evil designs This seemed odd to me but I accepted this explaination.

That seemed odd to me, so I investigated and rejected that explanation. Hence, among other things, the article I quoted from earlier in this thread.

I also investigated to find out reasons why so many LDS people are taught notions of exclusive truth and inspiration that are directly contradicted by LDS scripture. It turns out that it has a lot to do with human development in general, rather than LDS illusions. See, for instance, the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth, based on a study of students entering and progressing through Harvard. Position 2 of 9 has this:

***

POSITION 2 - Multiplicity Prelegitimate. (Resisting snake)

Now the person moves to accept that there is diversity, but they still think there are TRUE authorities who are right, that the others are confused by complexities or are just frauds. They think they are with the true authorities and are right while all others are wrong. They accept that their good authorities present problems so they can learn to reach right answers independently.

***

So when I see an LDS person expressing such provincial thinking, I'm clear that what I'm seeing is an unenlightened approach to complexity, not a sustainable, approach, not a specifically Mormon approach.

It was years later that I learned that as humans our brains manifacture this expereince and that satan and god have nothing to do with it...it's purely part of our human evolutionary expereince.

There is an interesting TED talk on this subject that I found very helpful in explaining how the human brain manifactures these experiences. The talk by Neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor...describes these very human feelings she experienced as a result of a stroke...it was a facinating presentation.

SNIP

While I accept that as humans we can create these burning sensations within the Mormon experience...to subscribe these emotional triggers as God somehow confirming LDS truth claims becomes somewhat suspect once we fully understand that the human brain can be manipulated by external programming and emotional triggers to produce this same burning sensation that God offers to also confirm His truth claims. So its not as clear as we might like or want it to be.

This get a lot clearer once you realize that the "burning in the bosom" is one kind of experience among a wide range of experiences (as I noted in my earlier post in this thread), and that many experiences intellectual rather than emotional ("expansion of the mind, enlightenment, understanding, judgement, voice, etc.). Given that "truth is knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come," it should make sense that many of the ways that the Spirit speaks involve prerequisite study, pondering, experiment and experience that leads to increased understanding.

It's easier to write off all religious experience as emotional when one begins by defining and then explaining religious experience in a reductive way. But it's not a particularly comprehensive or coherent approach, and not likely to lead to any expansion of the mind, or enlarged understanding.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA