Burning In The Bosom

[pogi]

I guess that I just always considered Christ to be this great comforter, to provide peace and serenity, particularly when one when one chooses His will over their own will. That experience that I recalled in an earlier post was thus so confusing to me. Maybe that is why after leaving the LDS church, and studying various other religions, I veered towards Buddhism, whose first Truth is "life is suffering."

Christ is the great comforter who provides peace and serenity. I don't doubt that your experiences with Buddhism have brought moments of peace and serenity, yet there is always suffering and will always be suffering in mortality. It is the same with Christ and Mormonism. I believe that it is because of Christ and through Christ that you have experienced peace and serenity in Buddhism. He is no respecter of persons and will endow peace and serenity to those who follow true principles of peace and serenity regardless of belief or faith.

I too am drawn to the teachings of Buddhism. I practice mindfulness meditation daily as a catalyst to prayer. You can find the principles of mindfulness all throughout scripture and from the words of the prophets. Western culture and traditions often find their way into Christianity, and it can be difficult at times to see its pure teachings practiced as taught. The beauty of Mormonism is that we teach that there is truth everywhere and we are encouraged to seek it out. We recognize truth wherever it may come from.

Perhaps your expectations in avoiding suffering through obedience were not realistic. Consider Christ who did the Father's will perfectly and yet drank of the bitter cup. Consider the history of Israel. Consider the history of Mormonism. Consider the consequence of the fall of man, consider His injunction to take his cross upon us.

James 5:10 -11 "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."

Romans 8:17-18 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if it so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

This is the hope that is in Christ, the fruits of which we taste from time to time!

Edited December 13, 2012 by pogi

[Storm Rider]

The burning of the bosom that is exprienced throughout the various religious sects of the world seems to be a very human expereince available to all humans both LDS and otherwise.

At the time that I experienced this burning sensation as a believing member of the LDS Church, I was under the impression that it was something quite unique to Mormonism and something that could be relied upon to comfirm LDS truth claims. I had also been taught in church that those outside of the LDS Chuch who claimed similar experiences in their religious communities were not feeling the same burning sensation that was being experienced among the Mormon faithful. Those that claimed such were merely being manipulated by satan...who could duplicate this expereince for his own evil designs This seemed odd to me but I accepted this explaination.

It was years later that I learned that as humans our brains manifacture this expereince and that satan and god have nothing to do with it...it's purely part of our human evolutionary expereince.

There is an interesting TED talk on this subject that I found very helpful in explaining how the human brain manifactures these experiences. The talk by Neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor...describes these very human feelings she experienced as a result of a stroke...it was a facinating presentation. [media=]

While I accept that as humans we can create these burning sensations within the Mormon experience...to subscribe these emotional triggers as God somehow confirming LDS truth claims becomes somewhat suspect once we fully understand that the human brain can be manipulated by external programming and emotional triggers to produce this same burning sensation that God offers to also confirm His truth claims. So its not as clear as we might like or want it to be.

As a LDS I have never been taught that others could not, should not, or were prevented from feeling the Holy Spirit in their lives. Quite the contrary, the mere fact that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world patently denies any possibility that the Holy Spirit could be restricted from influencing people that seek the Son of God. That fact seems overpoweringly evident. It is strange that we could be taught such diametrically opposite teachings, but all things are possible. Further, to make the assumption that all feelings of the heart are only the machinations of self-delusion prevents you and anyone that makes such an assumption from ever being led by the Spirit in any direct capacity. I must admit that some do self-delude, but I also must admit that the Spirit does talk to humanity as individuals. More importantly, the Spirit will tell you things and direct you to do things you will not want to do. That is not a situation of self-delusion, but the predicament of one who must learn to submit to the will of God. Lastly, I have never met a man or woman that I felt was more intelligent or more rational than God. I have met some who tried to convince themselves of such a vaunted position. They have never been people that I would consider at peace, happy, or fulfilled.

[why me]

The burning of the bosom that is exprienced throughout the various religious sects of the world seems to be a very human expereince available to all humans both LDS and otherwise.

This is true. I can sit in a catholic church and feel a sensation, such as the spirit. However, the early church leaders did not just have a burning sensation but also testified to an experience: angels, and seeing the plates. Such is the way of god. For example, the apostles had the experience of seeing the risen christ. Paul had an experience and so did Alma the younger. Now it is up to us to have faith that such experienced happened.

So, when 11 people testify to an experience and this experience was experienced at the same time with others, how do we reconcile that?

[Cr@ig P@xton]

This is true. I can sit in a catholic church and feel a sensation, such as the spirit. However, the early church leaders did not just have a burning sensation but also testified to an experience: angels, and seeing the plates. Such is the way of god. For example, the apostles had the experience of seeing the risen christ. Paul had an experience and so did Alma the younger. Now it is up to us to have faith that such experienced happened.

So, when 11 people testify to an experience and this experience was experienced at the same time with others, how do we reconcile that?

I think we both have our ways of reconciling these claimed experiences...

[Cr@ig P@xton]

As a LDS I have never been taught that others could not, should not, or were prevented from feeling the Holy Spirit in their lives. Quite the contrary, the mere fact that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world patently denies any possibility that the Holy Spirit could be restricted from influencing people that seek the Son of God. That fact seems overpoweringly evident. It is strange that we could be taught such diametrically opposite teachings, but all things are possible. Further, to make the assumption that all feelings of the heart are only the machinations of self-delusion prevents you and anyone that makes such an assumption from ever being led by the Spirit in any direct capacity. I must admit that some do self-delude, but I also must admit that the Spirit does talk to humanity as individuals. More importantly, the Spirit will tell you things and direct you to do things you will not want to do. That is not a situation of self-delusion, but the predicament of one who must learn to submit to the will of God. Lastly, I have never met a man or woman that I felt was more intelligent or more rational than God. I have met some who tried to convince themselves of such a vaunted position. They have never been people that I would consider at peace, happy, or fulfilled.

I was taught that non-members have access to the Light of Christ and limited access to the "Spirit" as investigators with the aid of Missionaries...but to have full access to the blessings of the spirit one must be baptised a member of the one true church. But even claimed spiritual expereince of other denominations were discounted as not being on the same level nor as lasting as those experienced by members of the LDS church.

[pogi]

I was taught that non-members have access to the Light of Christ and limited access to the "Spirit" as investigators with the aid of Missionaries...but to have full access to the blessings of the spirit one must be baptised a member of the one true church. But even claimed spiritual expereince of other denominations were discounted as not being on the same level nor as lasting as those experienced by members of the LDS church.

The fact that Mormons have greater access to the Spirit is true, in that they have the ability to "receive the Holy Ghost". We are not given the Holy Ghost at baptism, rather we are admonished to receive it. We do not teach that Mormons stop feeling the light of Christ and only feel the Spirit after baptism. Do Mormons in general actually utilize the Holy Ghost more than non-members, I honestly doubt it. The sole purpose of the Holy Ghost is to testify of the Father and the Son and to cleanse us by "fire", everything else I attribute to the light of Christ. I believe that the majority of what Mormons experience, and non-Mormons alike, is the light of Christ. I don't know if I will be popular in this belief, but I can make a strong case. Therefore, I don't believe that our "claimed spiritual experiences" are on a higher level than those of other faiths, unless the member is receiving the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire and the sure witness of the Father and the Son. In that case, yes, Mormons do and will experience the Spirit on a higher level, but the day to day spiritual experiences are no different from anyone else from what I can tell.

Edited December 13, 2012 by pogi

[why me]

I think we both have our ways of reconciling these claimed experiences...

Yes, we do. However, I believe these men who had such an experience because I can see no reason for them to lie throughout their lives, while people actually suffered when they were driven from town to town. What reasoning can we deduce from that? One can not just rationalize it away with a sentence.

[why me]

I was taught that non-members have access to the Light of Christ and limited access to the "Spirit" as investigators with the aid of Missionaries...but to have full access to the blessings of the spirit one must be baptised a member of the one true church. But even claimed spiritual expereince of other denominations were discounted as not being on the same level nor as lasting as those experienced by members of the LDS church.

Who discounted certain catholic experiences of seeing the virgin such as the children of fatima or bernedette had seen? I have never heard that one needs to be mormon to experience the spirit or having a spiritual experience.

[Cr@ig P@xton]

Who discounted certain catholic experiences of seeing the virgin such as the children of fatima or bernedette had seen? I have never heard that one needs to be mormon to experience the spirit or having a spiritual experience.

I think it's wonderful that God shares His spiritual manifestations with Catholic belivers so that their Catholic faith in Catholicism truth claims is stregthened and with Mormon's so that its adherants faith in Mormonism is stregthened and that God sends Muslims, Jews and in fact all religious parties who believe in spiritual manifestations... spiritual manifestations that confirm their respective religious belief. I thnk that it is wonderful that God is no respector of Religion and shares His (Insert Religion) confirming manifestations with these believers irrespective oftheir respective religious belief.

In fact that only ones that don't seem to receive these manifestations are the non-believers...but I guess God doen't care for the non-believers enough to show Himself.

[Walden]

Yes, we do. However, I believe these men who had such an experience because I can see no reason for them to lie throughout their lives, while people actually suffered when they were driven from town to town. What reasoning can we deduce from that? One can not just rationalize it away with a sentence.

Are you really of the belief that nobody, or no group of men, go to their graves as liars, and/or that there are no selfish motives for doing so? Off the top of my head I could think of any number of reasons that these men could go to their graves claiming to have experienced something that they did not actually experience (and this says nothing of the magical/mythical mindset that was common during that period, nor the whole "spiritual eyes" versus physical eyes debate surrounding the witnesses of the plates). Off the top of my head, I could very much imagine men going to their grave perpetuating a lie as a way to further cement their legacy, or as a stop-gap measure in response to the "what if it is all true" question that all believers must ask themselves, or they misinterpreted their experience (either through internal failings or external pressures), or that they suffered from the very real phenomena of "group-think", etc, etc. There are any number of real scenarios that could have played out that involve very real, physical, human phenomena that one would have to dissect before coming to the conclusion that, "well, that supernatural event must have been true, because these men said so and they have no reason to lie."

Edited December 14, 2012 by Walden

[pogi]

I think it's wonderful that God shares His spiritual manifestations with Catholic belivers so that their Catholic faith in Catholicism truth claims is stregthened and with Mormon's so that its adherants faith in Mormonism is stregthened and that God sends Muslims, Jews and in fact all religious parties who believe in spiritual manifestations... spiritual manifestations that confirm their respective religious belief. I thnk that it is wonderful that God is no respector of Religion and shares His (Insert Religion) confirming manifestations with these believers irrespective oftheir respective religious belief.

In fact that only ones that don't seem to receive these manifestations are the non-believers...but I guess God doen't care for the non-believers enough to show Himself.

Spiritual experiences are not necessarily confirmations that your particular church or religion is "true", but are confirmations of true principles which are lived. The scriptures are pretty clear on this. When we live by love, we will feel the spirit regardless of belief.

God cares for the non-believers too. I have no doubt that they have had spiritual experiences, they are spiritual beings after all.

Edited December 14, 2012 by pogi

[Avatar4321]

Is the burning in the bosom a literal burning sensation in your chest?

I would explain it as a flooding into your chest of the glory, love, and power of God. It can flood into other areas of the body as well. At least in my experience. You may feel your mind expanding. Literally. You are filled with such joy that you can't possibly concieve of if you haven't felt it before.

I know when I first recognized it (I had felt it many times but didn't realize it until i recognized it), I wanted more. It made me light and happy. It was like tasting of a wonderful food. You just want more and more of it. Before I recognized it, I felt it driving me forward. I felt it enticing me to study the Gospel to try to learn about God. I just didn't realize that it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me.

I've felt it many times since then. And it's only because of my experience with the Holy Ghost and the revelations I've recieved through these experiences that I can honestly say that I know that my Redeemer lives. I know that there is a God. And I know by the power of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. It's how Ive learned that Brigham Young and the prophets following Joseph were prophets.

My life would not be the same if it weren't for the Spirit. Which is why it sometimes bothers me when people treat it like a "mere feeling". It's so much more. It's joy, love, glory, power, and pure intelligence flowing into you.

I am so glad the Lord bestowed the grace He has on me. I hope I can show Him that His faith in me was not misplaced.

[mfbukowski]

ALL experiences are "mental states" so if mental states aren't real then I guess neither is science.

Those dang scientists go around having mental states all the time. Those brain chemicals are just a-buzzin' ALL day long.

They sit there dreaming up theories and doing their math. Where is the "real" math they are doing? It's all mental states. They decide to take the wife out for dinner. It's a mental state- I guess it's not a real decision then.

Golly - what are we going to do? NOTHING is real! It's only mental states!!

I wouldn't think that Paxton believes we are brains in a vat, but I guess that is where that logic leads.

[mfbukowski]

Alma 29 explains that God gives to all people all that he sees fit for them to have. Nephi explains that God "remembers the heathen." Moroni explains that the light of Christ is given to all. And the Bible describes the burning experience, which of course, means that it is a human experience. So exclusive, narrow claims don't come on a particularly solid foundation. Such claims are fairly easy to knock down, however.

That seemed odd to me, so I investigated and rejected that explanation. Hence, among other things, the article I quoted from earlier in this thread.

I also investigated to find out reasons why so many LDS people are taught notions of exclusive truth and inspiration that are directly contradicted by LDS scripture. It turns out that it has a lot to do with human development in general, rather than LDS illusions. See, for instance, the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth, based on a study of students entering and progressing through Harvard. Position 2 of 9 has this:

***

POSITION 2 - Multiplicity Prelegitimate. (Resisting snake)

Now the person moves to accept that there is diversity, but they still think there are TRUE authorities who are right, that the others are confused by complexities or are just frauds. They think they are with the true authorities and are right while all others are wrong. They accept that their good authorities present problems so they can learn to reach right answers independently.

***

So when I see an LDS person expressing such provincial thinking, I'm clear that what I'm seeing is an unenlightened approach to complexity, not a sustainable, approach, not a specifically Mormon approach.

This get a lot clearer once you realize that the "burning in the bosom" is one kind of experience among a wide range of experiences (as I noted in my earlier post in this thread), and that many experiences intellectual rather than emotional ("expansion of the mind, enlightenment, understanding, judgement, voice, etc.). Given that "truth is knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come," it should make sense that many of the ways that the Spirit speaks involve prerequisite study, pondering, experiment and experience that leads to increased understanding.

It's easier to write off all religious experience as emotional when one begins by defining and then explaining religious experience in a reductive way. But it's not a particularly comprehensive or coherent approach, and not likely to lead to any expansion of the mind, or enlarged understanding.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

I am much less polite than you but I couldn't agree more.

Your "burned" something here but it wasn't his bosom.

[mfbukowski]

It was years later that I learned that as humans our brains manifacture this expereince and that satan and god have nothing to do with it...it's purely part of our human evolutionary expereince.

Please tell me about ONE "experience" of ANYTHING which is NOT a chemical/mental state of our brains, which have after all evolved over time to enable us to experience things?

Perhaps there is a way our brains can tell us which one is "real" and which one is not? I hope you have a good definition of what is "real" and that it excludes anything that any human has ever experienced in order to make your theory consistent since what we experience in our brains is obviously not "real" to you.

Oh- and that would be "manufacture" and "experience" but pardon me for being pedantic. I will disregard the lack of capitalization because clearly you are making a point there, that these alleged beings do not exist and therefore the usual conventions do not apply.

Edited December 14, 2012 by mfbukowski