Ex Mormon To Possibly Be Canonized In The Catholic Church

[blueadept]

I'm surprised none of my fellow Catholic MD&D board members have commented yet but here's my 2 cents.

While I've shared my Catholic testimony with others and my fellow LDS friends have shared theirs, I'm not as moved by stories of this nature as I once was but it's always nice to read them. As the article states...

For the Catholic Church to declare someone a saint, a miracle must occur and be verified after the cause of sainthood is opened. That will lead to the person being declared Blessed. After beatification, another miracle must occur and be verified for canonization, that is, sainthood.

one miracle needs to be attributed to her from this point on before beatification, and then another one before sainthood could be considered. If I'm a faithful LDS member, I see no point in giving this any concern of how you feel about it since she is still a looooong way from being considered a saint. Let a miracle happen and then you can start speculating and more information will be known in regards to the holy life she led.

Thanks for sharing the link though.

[Pahoran]

Pogi ako.

Dalawang amin.

Mayabang ikaw!

Dalawang mo.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Vance]

Mayabang ikaw!

Dalawang mo.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pogi at mayabang at matalino ako!

Dalawang ako.

[TAO]

It's fine blueadept, don't worry about it too much. If they choose to make her a saint, that's fine, just as I'm pretty sure we've had GAs who used to be of your religion. It's just the way things work... people switch religions a lot of the time.

[blueadept]

It's fine blueadept, don't worry about it too much. If they choose to make her a saint, that's fine, just as I'm pretty sure we've had GAs who used to be of your religion. It's just the way things work... people switch religions a lot of the time.

That's where I'll be interested in reviewing the miracles that haven't happened yet and how they are attributed to her for what she did in her life. Let's let HF speak first and then it will be interesting to review it all.

[3DOP]

I'm surprised none of my fellow Catholic MD&D board members have commented yet but here's my 2 cents.

While I've shared my Catholic testimony with others and my fellow LDS friends have shared theirs, I'm not as moved by stories of this nature as I once was but it's always nice to read them. As the article states...

one miracle needs to be attributed to her from this point on before beatification, and then another one before sainthood could be considered. If I'm a faithful LDS member, I see no point in giving this any concern of how you feel about it since she is still a looooong way from being considered a saint. Let a miracle happen and then you can start speculating and more information will be known in regards to the holy life she led.

Thanks for sharing the link though.

Hi blue adept. A blessed Advent season to you and Feast of our Immaculate Mother tomorrow!

I missed the thread until just now. But I don't see much need for comment. Thankfully, our LDS friends here can see it isn't because of her former religion.

But I will add that her cause seems to follow ordinary proceedings. Local folks were attached to her and believing her to be already in heaven, they have prayed for her intercession. Over fifty years later, there remains a fervent local conviction that the person is a saint. Perhaps this is because of a miraculous reply to prayers made to God through her. Or it might be wishful thinking. Rome agrees to look in to the matter. Fifty years or fifty decades from now she may be declared a saint. Sts. Joan of Arc and Albert the Great were saints immediately after their deaths but it took five hundred years for the one and nearly 700 years for the other before it was recognized by the universal church. Most saints are not canonized. At the rate people die and go to heaven it would be a practical impossibility to investigate every "cause". The Feast of All Saints is held in honour of that blessed multitude who are not so recognized universally.

3DOP

[rongo]

blueadept and 3DOP: have either of you read or heard of a book called "The Devil's Advocate" (by Morris West)? I found it to be a fascinating story.

It centers around a priest from the Vatican, a bookish, career library-bound man who has a few months to live (terminal cancer), who is assigned to be the "devil's advocate" (official position who is supposed to poke holes in the alleged miracles to ensure a rigorous examination) for a proposed saint in rural Italy. All of his ducks are in a row spiritually, on the surface, except he has regrets about taking the easy way out and devoting his life to clerical and academic pursuits and not really touching lives. His experience up until his death results in a profound life-changing experience for him.

It was fascinating to me because it becomes clear to him, based on the evidence, both that bona fide miracles associated with him occurred, and that the proposed saint was an unworthy sinner. But it is very hard for him to get evidence because of politics and personal prejudices and attachments among those who knew him best.

http://italian-mysteries.com/MW02.html

There's a lot more to it than that, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was sympathetic to the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church, too, not iconoclastic.

[3DOP]

Hey rongo.

That sounds pretty interesting. I am unfamiliar with this author. Just to clarify, in the story, you are saying the miracles would be attributed to the proposed saint ("that bona fide miracles associated with him occurred"), not to the devil's advocate? As far as miracles go, they would need to have happened after death in order to carry the necessary weight of proof. But assuming that the miracles are to be attributed to the "unworthy sinner", this would create a crisis of conscience for the Catholic and maybe that is what the book is about? I presume you mean someone who in this life gave evidence that he often didn't follow the moral teachings of the Church? Obviously it would be hard to believe that God would perform miracles for one who flaunts the moral law.

Along with miracles, holiness of life, and orthodoxy are taken into consideration. Heaven is populated with "unworthy sinners" of course. Such souls can thankfully have hope of making it to heaven, but are excluded from canonization. Canonization is a celebration not only of the fact that God has exalted the saint after death, but it serves as a reminder that by God's grace we may be partakers of the divine nature on earth too. Those are canonized whose lives mirror the truth that orthodox beliefs that are lived out in practise lead to union with God. That is why miracles alone can not suffice for canonization.

Anyway, I'll be asking around among my literary friends to see if anyone knows this author. Thanks for the tip!

3DOP

[rongo]

Hey rongo.

That sounds pretty interesting. I am unfamiliar with this author. Just to clarify, in the story, you are saying the miracles would be attributed to the proposed saint ("that bona fide miracles associated with him occurred"), not to the devil's advocate?

That is correct.

As far as miracles go, they would need to have happened after death in order to carry the necessary weight of proof. But assuming that the miracles are to be attributed to the "unworthy sinner", this would create a crisis of conscience for the Catholic and maybe that is what the book is about? I presume you mean someone who in this life gave evidence that he often didn't follow the moral teachings of the Church? Obviously it would be hard to believe that God would perform miracles for one who flaunts the moral law.

Correct. The "devil's advocate" finds out by the end of the story, that verifiable miracles happened after the man's death. The complication is that he was living in sin and fathered a son with a woman. One of the miracles is that the son was born blind, but the man fasted and prayed and promised the mother that he would see. He was shot by firing squad soon after, and after his death, his son had his sight completely restored.

The book is very positive and supportive of Catholicism (i.e., is not seeking to denigrate or call it into question), and this drives one of the many tensions in the story. The dying priest is beside himself because of the contradiction.

[volgadon]

I am unfamiliar with this author.

I think it is the author of The Shoes of the Fisherman.

[savedbygrace]

Takes a lot more than visions to be canonised. Personally, I feel a saint such as Mother Theresa, whose faith was evident in her life and actions is a greater example to someone who claimed to have visions

[ERayR]

http://www.catholicn...ainthood-cause/

. What would the response of a faithful Latter Day Saint be to this? And finally, isn't it interesting that this is happening right as the Rome Temple is being built?

She obviously made an impression on the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

[rodheadlee]

http://www.catholicn...ainthood-cause/

So I stumbled across this the other day, and was quite surprised to read about this. Being active LDS, I found it a bit unnerving that someone left the Church and began having visions of Jesus telling her to pray for those poor benighted Mormons. I was wondering what everyone's take is on this, particularly those board members who are Catholic. What would the response of a faithful Latter Day Saint be to this? And finally, isn't it interesting that this is happening right as the Rome Temple is being built?

She was already a saint? and didn't know it?

[cdowis]

have either of you read or heard of a book called "The Devil's Advocate" (by Morris West)? I found it to be a fascinating story.

I believe I saw the movie many years ago. Very interesting.

[Damien the Leper]

Pogi ako.

Dalawang amin.

Mayabang ikaw!

Dalawang mo.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pogi at mayabang at matalino ako!

Dalawang ako.

You two are ridiculous! Handsome, smart and arrogant? How is that a good combination?

[volgadon]

You two are ridiculous! Handsome, smart and arrogant? How is that a good combination?

Some say I'm a combination of two out of three, but they never specify which...

[BCSpace]

I was wondering what everyone's take is on this

Welcome to the Telestial Kingdom!

(D&C 76:99-101)

[thesometimesaint]

BCSpace:

It really isn't up to us to judge whom has or hasn't received that testimony.

[Damien the Leper]

Some say I'm a combination of two out of three, but they never specify which...

I would bet on the handsome and smart. You've never come off as arrogant to me.

[Tacenda]

I would bet on the handsome and smart. You've never come off as arrogant to me.

I would add that "V" is very respectful too. Especially to non scholarly people like myself. Opposite of arrogant.

[saemo]

That is correct.

Correct. The "devil's advocate" finds out by the end of the story, that verifiable miracles happened after the man's death. The complication is that he was living in sin and fathered a son with a woman. One of the miracles is that the son was born blind, but the man fasted and prayed and promised the mother that he would see. He was shot by firing squad soon after, and after his death, his son had his sight completely restored.

The book is very positive and supportive of Catholicism (i.e., is not seeking to denigrate or call it into question), and this drives one of the many tensions in the story. The dying priest is beside himself because of the contradiction.

There are those whose lives before they led saintly lives, were far less than saintly. Augustine of Hippo is often raised up for that example. When he was young he lived a purposely hedonistic lifestyle. Later lived with a woman, who he had son with. It was his life after his conversion, that changed him dramatically, that is looked at when talking about Saint Augustine.

In the case of a person who lived a less than saintly life, we don't know about his last moments. He could have had a true change of heart and sought the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus Christ at the moment of his death. A true death bed conversion. Obviously in this circumstance, there is no life to examine afterwards.

Catholics also believe that God is merciful, and is not reliant on our behavior in order to show his mercy, ie, answering the prayer of a sinner to heal a blind child. The Cross is the evidence of this. Romans 5:8

Other than that, when a cause for sainthood has been put forward, the miracle(s) are those that come from praying for the intercessions of the person. It is seen as evidence that the person's soul is in the presence of God (heaven), rather than not.

[saemo]

http://www.catholicn...ainthood-cause/

So I stumbled across this the other day, and was quite surprised to read about this. Being active LDS, I found it a bit unnerving that someone left the Church and began having visions of Jesus telling her to pray for those poor benighted Mormons. I was wondering what everyone's take is on this, particularly those board members who are Catholic. What would the response of a faithful Latter Day Saint be to this? And finally, isn't it interesting that this is happening right as the Rome Temple is being built?

I heard about this almost a year ago. One thing that is attractive about Saints, is that we can look to them for examples of people who had similar experiences to our own, and see along with that example, the example of their faith in how they lived and what they experienced.

[saemo]

My first thought was not as christ-like as others. It was along the lines of "Evans: the saint of anti-mormons. Pray to when family is stuck in false doctrine and and mormon-y beliefs. Keep a candle nearby to ward off missionaries." Bad me, bad. Darn my sarcastic, east coast tendency of wanting to snicker at everything.

My second is, well technically her vision wasn't specifically about mormons per se. That's just inferred. As for whether she actually experienced it or not, no idea. I'm not her. She said she did, it effected her life and her desire to help others know Christ. So I figure she probably did. My overall reaction would probably be to shrug and say something along the lines of "as long as Mother Theresa gets to be sainted first." I'm not catholic, only my G-ma is on my step dad's side in any of my family. So it's not like it would have a great personal effect on myself.

With luv,

BD

OK, you made me laugh with the candle comment. Though I have yet to figure out what LDS really think of Catholics lighting candles, and if there is a problem. (?) A brother in law of mine, who acted kind of weird when he heard I had converted to Catholicism, decided the place to approach me about my conversion was at a funeral. Very loudly, in front of everyone who was there, he asked me if I were going to go to the cathedral and light a candle. He said it like it was an idea that bothered him. I got the distinct feeling that my conversion to Catholicism felt like a threat to him. I see him maybe once a year, so, maybe he thinks I was going to light a candle to Cora Evans and pray him and his family out of their mormon-y beliefs? I didn't say anything, just said I was going to sit with my family.

ANYWAY! I don't see this as "take that all you momon-y Mormons", I see it as a person with similar experiences who gets where I come from. I'm speaking to the experience of conversion with a similar background, not that of having visions.

[cdowis]

Deathbed conversion is based on a false premise. It assumes that the thief on the cross was evil, and unbaptized, and that "paradise" is heaven.

We are already told by the resurrected Christ that the Father does not reside in Paradise. Or, at least, Christ was not in His presence while in paradise. It is also possible that the thief was baptized by John, one of his disciples who went astray.

At least in the LDS church, it just does not work.

[saemo]

At least in the LDS church, it just does not work.

We don't pretend to know the heart of another person, at any moment in time. I see no difference between someone who converted 10 years ago and one who converted at the moment of their death. Only God knows if a heart was truly changed, but to deny the possibility is not rational, and quite cynical.