Newly Legal Marijuana And Wow

[pogi]

Something I have learned in life is this: if there is a rehab centre for something or a group to stop doing something, it's best to stay away from. Mankind doesn't do moderation real well. I have never once used mary joo awhna but if people don't think it's addictive can they stop at any moment and go the rest of their life without it?

I have never heard of a rehab for pot smokers. I have heard of a rehab for food addicts, should we ban food? Can you stop sugar or salt and go the rest of your life without it? They are both potentially very harmful and addictive, maybe you should steer clear.

[pogi]

people with certain medical conditions aren't allowed to drive anymore like my dad because of his diabetes

As it should be, what's your point? DWI's will always be punishable crimes.

[thesometimesaint]

Of course there are social ills - there is neglect of children while "stoned" and because money is spent on drugs and not food, clothing etc, there is driving whilst under the influence of the drug - it affects the user more than alcohol, there is the inability to work if one is a heavy user because it affects concentration and increases lethargy, there is the increased risk of mental health problems and illnesses associated with smoking which then affects the provision of medical services and there is the breakdown in relationships that occur. There is no such thing as safe drug use (even prescribed drugs must be taken with care) and marijuana is an addictive drug. And the laws are not draconian - it is an illegal drug and penalties are no more or less than those for other illegal drugs or unlawful behaviour. And having seen the damage drug use, even just marijuana, can do, there is no way I would support its legalisation in any way. (And yes - smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol are also very bad and I would love to see those activities also heavily discouraged - but the fact that they are legal does not justify making more drugs legal).

There are no social ills directly associated with the occasional use of marijuana, other than the operation of heavy equipment. Indirect yes; Direct no. BTW cars are heavy equipment. In California anything over .08% BAC is considered driving under the influence and is subject to strict law enforcement. Something I totally approve of.

You neglect your children more when you are asleep. No one is suggesting parents need to be awake 24/7.

I never said that using illicit drugs is a good choice, or should have any priority over other considerations. However income beyond subsistence levels allows for discretionary spending, including for things we both find nonsensical. My own kids are grown and have families of their own, but even when they were at home my wife and I tried to get out once a week, to maintain our sanity. By your overly broad definition should we have done that?

There are no mental health problems directly associated with occasional marijuana usage. You've watched "Reefer Madness" too often.

I have no idea as to what you are talking about with providing medical assistance or breakdown in relationships.

All drugs have their problems and I don't recommend taking any drugs without an absolute medical need. Even then they should be used with skill and wisdom.

Yes they are. Felony convictions for simple nonviolent possession breeds disrespect for the law. Also nearly 2/3 of all prisoners are in for simple nonviolent drug possession making a permanent underclass with fewer rights and less access to economic advancement.

So someone gets high. I fail to see where that is any of your or my business if they don't endanger the public, and/or it is no problem for them. There are lots of things I disapprove of, but I don't go around trying to make them felonies.

Marijuana is not a addictive drug. Nor is it a gateway drug to other drug usage.

For the Saints lots of things that are legal, but that doesn't make them good to do/use. I serious doubt that the Saints would start using meth and/or heroin if they were suddenly legal.

[Duncan]

As it should be, what's your point? DWI's will always be punishable crimes.

let me put this another way-Do you think they will be handing out MJ in heaven? We need to control our appetites of everything under while here, MJ has no value to making at all, it'srecreational completely useless. Are you Pogi a member of the Church? Can you show me anywhere where God has said we need to take MJ for our betterment?

[Duncan]

I have never heard of a rehab for pot smokers. I have heard of a rehab for food addicts, should we ban food? Can you stop sugar or salt and go the rest of your life without it? They are both potentially very harmful and addictive, maybe you should steer clear.

http://www.addictionenders.com/marijuana_rehab.html

you can look for one here

[thesometimesaint]

let me put this another way-Do you think they will be handing out MJ in heaven? We need to control our appetites of everything under while here, MJ has no value to making at all, it'srecreational completely useless. Are you Pogi a member of the Church? Can you show me anywhere where God has said we need to take MJ for our betterment?

Eat your spinach. It's good for you.

[Duncan]

Eat your spinach. It's good for you.

maybe they'll make a cartoon outta me!

[thesometimesaint]

I like fresh spinach, canned spinach not so much. Popeye not withstanding.

[pogi]

let me put this another way-Do you think they will be handing out MJ in heaven? We need to control our appetites of everything under while here, MJ has no value to making at all, it'srecreational completely useless. Are you Pogi a member of the Church? Can you show me anywhere where God has said we need to take MJ for our betterment?

You are right - WE need to control our appetites, our government shouldn't control our appetites for us!

I am a member. I have never touched the stuff, and never plan on it (even if they make it legal). How does any of this support your argument against making it legal?

I don't think they'll be handing out McDonalds in heaven either. Do you eat at McDonalds Duncan?

Edited November 13, 2012 by pogi

[pogi]

http://www.addiction...uana_rehab.html

you can look for one here

That's great, I'm glad they have it for those who need it. This doesn't diminish my argument in any way.

[Duncan]

You are right - WE need to control our appetites, not our government!

I am a member. I have never touched the stuff, and never plan on it (even if they make it legal). How does any of this support your argument against making it legal?

I don't think they'll be handing out McDonalds in heaven either. Do you eat at McDonalds Duncan?

I live in a city that has more mcdonalds per capita then anywhere else in Canada! but not really do I eat there. I don't see Mcdonalds and MJ being the same though, Supersize me notwithstanding!

[pogi]

I live in a city that has more mcdonalds per capita then anywhere else in Canada! but not really do I eat there. I don't see Mcdonalds and MJ being the same though, Supersize me notwithstanding!

It sounds like your argument is that MJ is bad for you, and is useless recreation, it will not be served in heaven, and that it is not for our betterment, therefore it should be illegal. My point is that I can make the same argument about McDonalds. So, based on your argument, why keep McDonalds legal and not MJ?

Edited November 13, 2012 by pogi

[Duncan]

It sounds like your argument is that MJ is bad for you, and is useless recreation, it will not be served in heaven, and that it is not for our betterment, therefore it should be illegal. My point is that I can make the same argument about McDonalds. So, based on your argument, why keep McDonalds legal and not MJ?

capitalism! but mcdonalds is apparently losing money so maybe we won't see them around in the years to come!

[DavidB]

Fast food and other processed foods are manufactured to be addictive in the very literal sense, this was admitted to on National Tv in the United States a few months ago.

[pogi]

capitalism! but mcdonalds is apparently losing money so maybe we won't see them around in the years to come!

That's how it should be! Let the people decide what is right for them, not the government!

[Mark Beesley]

At the outset, let me make it clear that I am not advocating for the use of marijuana. I don’t believe its use lends itself to helping one return to Heavenly Father; however, I read so many unsubstantiated, boogieman statements in this thread--things I have heard since the 60s and 70--that I thought I’d offer my perspective.

With regard to the dangers of driving while under the influence of marijuana, it is already illegal in California to drive under the influence of drugs. These are very difficult laws to prosecute (I used to be a prosecutor) because there are no studies that correlate specific drug levels to driving. On the other hand, there are innumerable correlation studies showing the effect of specific levels of alcohol in the body on one’s ability to be a safe driver. That is why the law specifies very specific levels of alcohol that make it a crime to operate a vehicle--.08 percent in most states--and these laws are fairly easy to prosecute.

(There have been studies of fatal vehicle accidents where marijuana was found in the body, but the results are not generally useful because alcohol is generally also present. But if you were to go by the current literature alone, there appears to be no adverse effects on driving from marijuana use.)

If we were to legalize marijuana, then correlation studies could be done to show what levels of THC in the body correlate to poor or dangerous driving. The laws could then be written to incorporate such information, and it would be much easier to prosecute drivers who drive under the influence of marijuana. But at present, I am unaware of a single study that has been done to correlate the effects of marijuana intoxication on driving. (My own experience from years ago was that marijuana generally made me more cautious while driving, but that is strictly anecdotal and may be skewed by my own prejudices.)

The addictive qualities of marijuana are likewise unsubstantiated. While a person might become psychologically dependent on the drug, such dependence is unlike physiological addiction. A person who is psychologically dependent on marijuana will use it compulsively when it is available, but when it is unavailable, for whatever reason, they do not go through withdrawal symptoms that are typical of other addictive drugs.

An untested but presumed heath hazard arises from the method in which is ingested. Marijuana can be smoked, the traditional and perhaps most common method of ingestion. However, there are other methods that do not, presumably, present the same health risks. It can be used in an inhaler, where only the vapors are ingested and none of the other substances produced by smoking, such as tars, are introduced into the lungs. It can be used in baked products, like brownies, or included in any number of other food items. It is even available in capsule form.

The health risks of marijuana are presently untested and unknown, primarily because it remains an illegal drug and no serious testing has been completed.

In my opinion, the greatest tragedy of marijuana is the impact on families when a person is incarcerated for a crime related solely to the use or distribution of marijuana. The laws for simple possession, while not as draconian in some states as they used to be, still account for a substantial number of young men--disproportionately black--being incarcerated.

Is marijuana use violative of the Word of Wisdom? I think that is question that the individual needs to answer. For myself, if I were still using marijuana, I might find it very difficult to answer affirmatively whether I obeyed the Word of Wisdom, in spite of a personal belief that it is a useful herb.

(After posting this, I found the following article on marijuana and driving. Apparently some correlations studies have been done overseas, and it appears marijuana drivers generally are more cautious. Go figure. )

Edited November 14, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[Mark Beesley]

Ultimately, I suspect the cultural perceptions against marijuana are so deeply entrenched that it will be impossible to untangle them from the doctrine.

I couldn't agree more.

[Mark Beesley]

Is there any mind altering substance that is seen as acceptable in your view according to the WoW (or at least the current interpretation of it)?

I think that is what cinepro is talking about. Because of the cultural perception that marijuana is a mind altering substance, and mind altering is bad, then it must be that marijuana is bad and therefore violative of the Word of Wisdom.

But no one seems to want to challenge the premise that it is bad, in all cases, to alter one's mind.

We engage in mind-altering activities all the time. We excite our senses with music, with movies, with books, with food, etc. Did you ever get lost in a book, or find yourself in a different state of consciousness listening to Mozart? I have. All of these activities, in a sense, alter our minds from a natural, relaxed, unexcited state. But no one would suggest that doing so is bad. In the early days of the Church, the brethren rejoiced in being able to partake of the fruit of the vine because it gladdened their hearts-read altered their minds-and no one faulted them for it. Men are that they might have joy, and joy can be found in lots of different activities. And frankly, it would be a rather joyless existence if we never altered minds with some sensory stimulant.

But like cinepro said, the cultural perception is so prejudiced against marijuana that it will likely never be untangled from that which we call doctrine. And perhaps that is not a bad thing. I don't know.

[Calm]

I think that is what cinepro is talking about. Because of the cultural perception that marijuana is a mind altering substance, and mind altering is bad, then it must be that marijuana is bad and therefore violative of the Word of Wisdom.

But no one seems to want to challenge the premise that it is bad, in all cases, to alter one's mind.

We engage in mind-altering activities all the time. We excite our senses with music, with movies, with books, with food, etc. Did you ever get lost in a book, or find yourself in a different state of consciousness listening to Mozart? I have. All of these activities, in a sense, alter our minds from a natural, relaxed, unexcited state. But no one would suggest that doing so is bad. In the early days of the Church, the brethren rejoiced in being able to partake of the fruit of the vine because it gladdened their hearts-read altered their minds-and no one faulted them for it. Men are that they might have joy, and joy can be found in lots of different activities. And frankly, it would be a rather joyless existence if we never altered minds with some sensory stimulant.

But like cinepro said, the cultural perception is so prejudiced against marijuana that it will likely never be untangled from that which we call doctrine. And perhaps that is not a bad thing. I don't know.

But such mind altering experiences that are caused by intentional control/discipline of the body are controled by the individual and it can be stopped almost immediately if it becomes necessary. Once you ingest or partake of a mind altering drug, you are under the control of the drug and you have to wait until it clears the system.

I do not equate "mind altering" with bad, not even the drug related kind. There are many religions that use mind altering drugs and I see no reason for them to change and am glad the government makes exception for them. I don't see alcohol use as automatically bad either, especially in religious use, cooking or where it is associated with family/friend gatherings where it is simply the beverage of choice that is simply drunk along with the meal.

I do equate drug related mind altering with "against the Word of Wisdom" which to me is not the same as "bad" but rather the same as "against the covenant we make". When the covenant is changed to allow for wine drinking (which I anticipate at least at the time of the second coming due to scripture), I won't be one who is saying that doesn't make sense or it shouldn't be allowed now if it wasn't allowed in the past or anything close. I believe that it has been chosen as a commandment for the most part as an identifying ritual to set the Saints apart as a peculiar people and the health benefits is a side benefit now that was more important when it was not a commandment. When we are all supposed to be one with God reigning, such markers won't need to be in place anymore.

[thesometimesaint]

Fast food and other processed foods are manufactured to be addictive in the very literal sense, this was admitted to on National Tv in the United States a few months ago.

We evolved to like fats, sweets, and salt. While not particularly good for us in large quantities, we do need some of each in our diets, they are not addictive in any literal sense.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.skinnytwinkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/USDA_Food_Pyramid.1992.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.skinnytwinkie.com/2011/06/usdas-food-pyramid-replacement/&h=569&w=730&sz=67&tbnid=S2aLw_xjLwESxM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=128&zoom=1&usg=__nzqg_rf2Tgu2g3tzfG6Y4Xf0bYU=&docid=kDwqfXYPfqKz7M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XsejUIrZFab1igKCgYG4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CEMQ9QEwBA&dur=3247

[Garden Girl]

So someone gets high. I fail to see where that is any of your or my business if they don't endanger the public, and/or it is no problem for them.

Marijuana is not a addictive drug. Nor is it a gateway drug to other drug usage.

There are lots of things I disapprove of, but I don't go around trying to make them felonies.

Good morning TSS... Hope you are well this morning...

The bolded portion is just the problem... like drinking... we cannot count on all people to behave responsibly. How many campaigns against drunk driving have there been? How many pictures of highway carnage do we need to see? How many shattered lives have there been because of drunk drivers?

It will be the same with numerous MJ users... they'll smoke a (some) joint(s), think they are just fine in their foggy sense of reality... get in a car and drive. If you don't think so, you're kidding yourself. You and every other proponent.

Of course there are users who will behave responsibly, just like there are drinkers who follow the rules... it's that segment, like drunk drivers, that somehow think the rules don't apply to them before they turn that key in the ignition and go out and kill and maim. Now we will be faced with another segment of selfish, inconsiderate, immature users who will scoff at the rules and look upon those who express these concerns as uninformed or behind the times. No, I am neither and I am sick to death of the results of drunk drivers... and dread the addition of a new more widespread segment of potheads who will not behave responsibly now that the drug will be even easier to obtain and without the consequences or stigma.

GG

[Walden]

I live in a city that has more mcdonalds per capita then anywhere else in Canada! but not really do I eat there. I don't see Mcdonalds and MJ being the same though, Supersize me notwithstanding!

You are right, McDonald's and marijuana use are not equivalent.

A McDonald's addiction is much more debilitating to your health, will kill you quicker than a marijuana addiction, and is a greater cause of skyrocketing healthcare costs in this country than marijuana addiction.

[Duncan]

You are right, McDonald's and marijuana use are not equivalent.

A McDonald's addiction is much more debilitating to your health, will kill you quicker than a marijuana addiction, and is a greater cause of skyrocketing healthcare costs in this country than marijuana addiction.

you should work for Burger King Advertising!

[Mark Beesley]

It will be the same with numerous MJ users... they'll smoke a (some) joint(s), think they are just fine in their foggy sense of reality... get in a car and drive. If you don't think so, you're kidding yourself. You and every other proponent.

There are no definitive studies to support such a conclusion. Many studies conclude that marijuana drivers are actually more cautious and drive slower than non-marijuana users. Marijuana does not have the same effects as alcohol on driving.

It might be better to assess the dangers from a less emotional point of view.

Incidentally, I am sick and tired of the carnage caused by irresponsible gun-owners. Can we finally get some laws to get guns out of the hands of everybody?!?!? Guns kill a hell of a lot more people than marijuana.

[thesometimesaint]

Good morning TSS... Hope you are well this morning...

The bolded portion is just the problem... like drinking... we cannot count on all people to behave responsibly. How many campaigns against drunk driving have there been? How many pictures of highway carnage do we need to see? How many shattered lives have there been because of drunk drivers?

It will be the same with numerous MJ users... they'll smoke a (some) joint(s), think they are just fine in their foggy sense of reality... get in a car and drive. If you don't think so, you're kidding yourself. You and every other proponent.

Of course there are users who will behave responsibly, just like there are drinkers who follow the rules... it's that segment, like drunk drivers, that somehow think the rules don't apply to them before they turn that key in the ignition and go out and kill and maim. Now we will be faced with another segment of selfish, inconsiderate, immature users who will scoff at the rules and look upon those who express these concerns as uninformed or behind the times. No, I am neither and I am sick to death of the results of drunk drivers... and dread the addition of a new more widespread segment of potheads who will not behave responsibly now that the drug will be even easier to obtain and without the consequences or stigma.

GG

Good Morning GG:

I be well. I have no tolerance for those get behind the wheel of vehicles drunk or high. If I had my way lose of their drivers license would be the least of their problems. To say nothing about if they kill someone.

I don't see a large increase in pot use if it were to be legalized. Probably some increase, but not a large increase. The novelty will soon wear off. Plus I think we should encourage and fund more clinics to those that want to stop using any drugs including alcohol.