End Of The Mormon Moment?

[Mark Beesley]

What the heck are you talking about? If you're talking about

, I think it's fair to argue that much of the opposition to the amendments came from people who believe in God but objected to having Jerusalem recognized as the capital of Israel. They weren't "booing God".

If you're referring to something else (for example, if God appeared at the convention and was booed), please let me know.

I was wondering what Jude2 was referencing as well. It is a good example of how someone watching Faux News reports does not get an accurate picture of reality The motion being voted on was, as you stated, on whether to include in the platform recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. There was as substantial opposition to the motion, but the chair ruled that the motion had received 2/3 of the vote. That was doubtful, and those who voted against the motion booed the chair's ruling. It's nuts to suggest that anyone was booing God.

[Freedom]

Saints Alive was reacting to your remark: "I think that one can always trust the people to make the right decision."

He has a point. Germany in the 1930s and the United States in 2012 contradict that assertion.

Well, I think the American people made the right decision in 2012. The Republican party needs to purge itself of the radical christian right.

[Freedom]

From my interaction with critics on various boards, I found this election to be a unique opportunity to engage with numerous people who otherwise would not have cared. It affirmed to me that, by and large, they have little evidence to support their claims. As romney fades away, places like huffington post will have fewer LDS focused articles and, as a result, fewer ridiculous claims to counter. Many critics are entrenched and would rather hurl insults than to engage in meaningful conversation but I have found about 6 individual who started out very hostile and, after numerous responses back and forth, acknowledged that we may believe differently than some but we are not necessarily wrong. I will miss this. It was a rare opportunity to reach out to the open minded.

I have an open invitation to speak at a protestant church on Orem Utah, to be treated to good old southern food in Georgia after attending church services, to have a private tour of the House of Commons in England in exchange for sitting in on a missionary discussion, and to go fishing in Saskatchewan with a former member who sadly is of the opinion that I was the first mormon he ever met who respected his choice to leave the church.

[Mark Beesley]

Well, I think the American people made the right decision in 2012. The Republican party needs to purge itself of the radical christian right.

121,306,408 Americans made the right decision in 2012. They voted.

[Freedom]

121,306,408 Americans made the right decision in 2012. They voted.

Well said.

[Jude2]

What the heck are you talking about? If you're talking about

, I think it's fair to argue that much of the opposition to the amendments came from people who believe in God but objected to having Jerusalem recognized as the capital of Israel. They weren't "booing God".

If you're referring to something else (for example, if God appeared at the convention and was booed), please let me know.

In the first place it was the Democrat party who removed God from their platform all together and would not recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It wasn't until Fox brought it to everyone’s attention that the monition was put forth to put God back in there.

It was asked three times and three times the monition was booed and when the leaders declared the monition passed over the will of the people the booing grew even louder.

Yes some of it was about Jerusalem but that brings to mind this passage;

And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it. 1 Nephi 22: 14

[Mark Beesley]

In the first place it was the Democrat party who removed God from their platform all together and would not recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It wasn't until Fox brought it to everyone’s attention that the monition was put forth to put God back in there.

The Platform drafting committee prepared the original platform, and the chairman of that committee offered the amendment at the convention. Apparently democracy and dissent is alive and well in the Democratic Party.

Incidentally, it was President Obama who insisted on the amendment that was voted on regarding Jerusalem.

The booing occurred one time, after the final vote when the chair announced the result. The opposition appeared to be coming from Arab Americans who objected to recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

You really should turn off Faux News and start watching The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Don't worry, they bleep out the profanity.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[Scott Lloyd]

. . . in your not-so-humble opinion . . .

What a ridiculous comparison! Do you use that keyboard to compose serious stuff as well?

Just returning one political jab for another on this supposedly non-political board.

But keep it up, and we'll see the thread shut down in short order.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think that is a true statement as a general observation (which is th spirit in which I meant it), according to Mosiah 29:26-2:

"Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the cpeople to desire that which is not right; ..."

But you didn't say "generally," you said "always." I'm glad to see you've amended your remark.

I don't agree. Germany was an uncommon[/c] occurance where the people made the wrong choice; and the US in 2012 made the right choice! So in either case I don't agree with your assessment.

The majority can and occasionally does make wrong choices. I just wanted that fact on the table.

That's why we have a Bill of Rights written into the Constitution: to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

[Mark Beesley]

That's why we have a Bill of Rights written into the Constitution: to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

Not only the Bill of Rights, but the entire philosophy of checks and balances, separation of powers, and a bicameral legislature were all instruments to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority. I believe that is the foundational basis for the LDS belief that the Constitution was established by wise men raised up by God to that purpose.

(Glad to see your other post was not meant to be taken seriously. That was mildly worrisome.)

[mfbukowski]

Now dearie... that is your own opinion... I won't turn this into a political thread by going further so not to break board rules... but let me assure you that millions of people do not share your view and I certainly did not.

GG

Considering the actual numbers I think it is safe to say that half the nation is in mourning for the death of the American Dream. The other half just doesn't get it.

[mfbukowski]

Only time will tell; we shall see.

In exactly four years. By their fruits you shall know them.

[mfbukowski]

Just returning one political jab for another on this supposedly non-political board.

But keep it up, and we'll see the thread shut down in short order.

We can only hope

[california boy]

In the first place it was the Democrat party who removed God from their platform all together and would not recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It wasn't until Fox brought it to everyone’s attention that the monition was put forth to put God back in there.

It was asked three times and three times the monition was booed and when the leaders declared the monition passed over the will of the people the booing grew even louder.

Yes some of it was about Jerusalem but that brings to mind this passage;

And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it. 1 Nephi 22: 14

So now you got the Democrats against God and about to attack Israel. I also think you need to stop listening to right wing talk radio shock jocks. Do you really beleive that the majority of Democrats are against God??? Are you expecting the United States to attack Israel now that Obama is re elected?

Or are you just trying to say all you can to close down this thread?

[Scott Lloyd]

Germany does... The US does not.

In Germany there has been an extreme conflagration of factors that caused support for the nazi party. There is also much debate over the fairness of those elections.

I think you mean conflation or confluence. A conflagration is a big fire.

And I suppose most everybody who ever made a wrong choice in a political election felt justified or that there were extenuating circumstances at the time. The capacity of the human mind to rationalize is immense.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Jude2]

The Platform drafting committee prepared the original platform, and the chairman of that committee offered the amendment at the convention. Apparently democracy and dissent is alive and well in the Democratic Party.

The Democratic Party has been deliberately removing God from their platform. In 2004 God was mentioned 7 times, in 2008 it was just once and in 20012 not at all until someone notice it.

Incidentally, it was President Obama who insisted on the amendment that was voted on regarding Jerusalem.

Are you say Obama didn't notice the omission before it was pointed out to him, did he not read the platform first?

The booing occurred one time, after the final vote when the chair announced the result. The opposition appeared to be coming from Arab Americans who objected to recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Okay when asked if they wanted to add God back in they said NO! three times and then they Booed!

[Mark Beesley]

Take a rest son.

[Scott Lloyd]

Not only the Bill of Rights, but the entire philosophy of checks and balances, separation of powers, and a bicameral legislature were all instruments to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.

I agree fully.

I believe that is the foundational basis for the LDS belief that the Constitution was established by wise men raised up by God to that purpose.

The foundation for that LDS belief is stated expressly in Doctrine and Covenants 101:78, "That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment."

In short, the Lord brought forth the U.S. Constitution by the hands of wise men so that an environment could be preserved wherein moral agency can be exercised and men and women can be held accountable.

(Glad to see your other post was not meant to be taken seriously. That was mildly worrisome.)

Oh, I was in earnest.

And I'll repeat my point for emphasis: The majority can and occasionaly does make wrong choices, as history has shown.

For future reference, most of what I post here is meant to be taken seriously, your sniping about my use of my keyboard notwithstanding.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

I think you mean conflation or confluence. A conflagration is a big fire.

And I suppose most everybody who ever made a wrong choice in a political election felt justified or that there were extenuating circumstances at the time. The capacity of the human mind to rationalize is immense.

I meant conflagration - Germany was literally afire with anger and ablaze with hatred towards the rest of Europe due to the sanctions from the end of WW1 - it was a little flowery i admit.

[Scott Lloyd]

I meant conflagration - Germany was literally afire with anger and ablaze with hatred towards the rest of Europe due to the sanctions from the end of WW1 - it was a little flowery i admit.

OK, I see how your word can be appropriate.

But I think you would have to agree that anger and hatred can lead to irrational and wrong choices made in the voting booth.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

OK, I see how your word can be appropriate.

But I think you would have to agree that anger and hatred can lead to irrational and wrong choices made in the voting booth.

Absolutely.

I would just say that it is not reasonable equate the current US climate with the German one.

Those in the US do not have the same reasons to be angry.

[Scott Lloyd]

Absolutely.

I would just say that it is not reasonable equate the current US climate with the German one.

Those in the US do not have the same reasons to be angry.

Of course not.

And I can't speak for others here, but my impression is that the only point anyone intended to make with the comparison is the rather uncontroversial axiom that majorities are sometimes wrong.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Mark Beesley]

Oh, I was in earnest.

And I'll repeat my point for emphasis: The majority can and occasionaly does make wrong choices, as history has shown.

For future reference, most of what I post here is meant to be taken seriously, your sniping about my use of my keyboard notwithstanding.

So, you engage in political counter-jabbing on a religious Board and expect to be taken seriously? Well, I guess if your goal is to preach to your choir you might have some success.

[Scott Lloyd]

So, you engage in political counter-jabbing on a religious Board and expect to be taken seriously?

I didn't start the jabbing. And yes, I expect to be taken seriously. I think I've made that clear.

It's not my job to be board police. Nor is it yours, for that matter.

Well, I guess if your goal is to preach to your choir you might have some success.

This is a non sequitur.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

We do have idiots whom think it is permissible to do outrageous the things as a result of this election. But we are nothing like NAZI Germany.