Another Word Of Wisdom Thread... Sorry.

[Calm]

I find it unlikely that Joseph Smith never corrected the misinformation around him to make it clearer considering how his brother and others were teaching it.

[Saints Alive]

I find it unlikely that Joseph Smith never corrected the misinformation around him to make it clearer considering how his brother and others were teaching it.

But were they teaching that we should avoid Coffee and tea alone? even if they were what makes you think JS would correct it? He did after all, ride around smoking a cigar, and sold spirits.

[Saints Alive]

As I said, it is of little importance in the grand scheme of things. I never liked coffee or tea before I joined the church. I do find it interesting though.

[ERayR]

But were they teaching that we should avoid Coffee and tea alone? even if they were what makes you think JS would correct it? He did after all, ride around smoking a cigar, and sold spirits.

You can go ahead and drink your chicken soup cold if you like but I think I will have mine heated.

[Ahab]

Ok but the common thread among all of them is that they very well could be referencing the same quote by JS or stating tradition. Why did Maxwell believe the WoW referred to all hot drinks? I'm not debating that it is current practice, but it seems very possible that it could be more tradition and less revelation. I know frontier medicine once thought that hot blood caused illness and thus drinking or eating hot things could cause illness, crazy by todays standards. In the same way the majority of the church thought the curse of cain was doctrine, our current interpretation of the WoW could be speculation. Do you think the idea of the curse of cain would have been corrected if the civil rights movement never occurred? or if we lived in a nation without African Americans? In the same way our current practice of the WoW could be wrong and it would never be challenged because it doesn't discriminate against anyone and is of relatively little importance in the long run.

Point 1: The Lord either revealed his mind and will to Joseph Smith concerning what we should eat and drink, or the Lord didn't.

Point 2: If the Lord did, and if the term "hot drinks" is understood to refer to hot tea and hot coffee, then those are what the Lord adivised us to not drink. OR, if the term "hot drinks" is understood to refer to not only hot tea and hot coffee but also to any hot drink like hot chocolate or hot apple cider or even a hot cup of soup, then those are the things our Lord advised us to not drink.

Either way, if the Lord did reveal his mind and will to Joseph Smith concerning what we should eat and drink, inicluding what we should avoid eating and drinking, including placing some limits on how much we should eat and drink, then there are some limitations to what our Lord, in his wisdom, advised us to eat and drink.

Point 3: If you showed the counsel contained in the Word of Wisdom to any doctor while asking them if it would be wise to follow those dietary guidelines I can pretty much guarantee that ALL of them will say something like this:

Sure, that sounds like wisdom and some good dietary guidelines to me.

Some might want to add a little here or take away a little there to suit their own tastes or guidelines, but as it is the Word of Wisdom lays out a very good and wise guideline for anyone to follow as far as what they should or should not eat and drink.

[MiserereNobis]

But were they teaching that we should avoid Coffee and tea alone? even if they were what makes you think JS would correct it? He did after all, ride around smoking a cigar, and sold spirits.

I would love to see President Monson smoking a cigar!

Pope St. Pius X, who is my profile picture, smoked cigars

[shalamabobbi]

I would love to see President Monson smoking a cigar!

Pope St. Pius X, who is my profile picture, smoked cigars

Yeah, but if he did that, he would immediately pass away..

[DavidB]

I don't care who said it, but it seems that every prophet has quoted JS and perhaps misunderstood and took calmoriah's interpretation vs having his own revelation on the matter. I don't know, that is why I am looking for other quotes, one that take ownership and don't refer back to other unnamed prophets. I don't understand why the Lord explicitly forbid tobacco, and wine, but did not mention coffee and tea by name?

Did you read the paper I linked?

[Scott Lloyd]

What about herbal tea? Has there been a distinction regarding herbal vs. regular tea (made from the actual tea leaf)?

If we are basing the interpretation off of Joseph's statement above, then wouldn't this mean that even herbal tea is banned, as he specifically stated that “‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”?

"Herbal tea" is a misnomer. Drinks brewed from rose hips, peppermint, etc., are not tea at all, as they are not derived from tea leaves.

Add-on: I see that Stargazer has already treated this in greater depth, but I couldn't resist responding immediately.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Saints Alive]

Did you read the paper I linked?

I may have missed it, I will go back and check it out.

[Biz]

Is it a Sin to drink coffee or tea?

[Tacenda]

Is it a Sin to drink coffee or tea?

Definitely not a sin. You don't go to your bishop to confess it. It's just a stipulation that you abstain from it if you want a recommend. Edited October 18, 2012 by Tacenda

[Biz]

Definitely not a sin. You don't go to your bishop to confess it. It's just a stipulation that you abstain from it if you want a recommend.

What about alcohol and tobacco? Is drinking or smoking a sin?

[Tacenda]

What about alcohol and tobacco? Is drinking or smoking a sin?

This is still not a sin. But the WoW is that, words of wisdom that will help you live a better life. Edited October 18, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

This is still not a sin. But the WoW is that, words of wisdom that will help you live a better life.

P.S. drinking alcohol may lead to sinning.

[Biz]

P.S. drinking alcohol may lead to sinning.

Thanks for answering my question, I agree with your answers. I'm sure many would disagree with you.

As these are not sins I don't think they should be tied to a temple recommend. I don't think it's necessary to debate why or why the word of wisdom should not be tied to the temple. Both sides have some valid points but I do think it's problematic to link the wow with a temple recommend.

[Tacenda]

Thanks for answering my question, I agree with your answers. I'm sure many would disagree with you.

As these are not sins I don't think they should be tied to a temple recommend. I don't think it's necessary to debate why or why the word of wisdom should not be tied to the temple. Both sides have some valid points but I do think it's problematic to link the wow with a temple recommend.

The WoW was a much more relaxed doctrine in the early days of the church. Just some words of wisdom. It also wasn't required to live it in order to enter the temple.

[Tacenda]

But I've no real problem with the church having the stance on obeying the WoW before getting a TR.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Tacenda

[Saints Alive]

This is still not a sin. But the WoW is that, words of wisdom that will help you live a better life.

I don't know, technically speaking the WoW is now a "commandment" so depending on how you interpret that, I'd consider breaking a commandment a sin. I do agree that if slip up and have a drink, or smoke once or twice, you probably don't need to see your bishop. On the other hand, if you do it habitually, and unrepentantly, you probably need to confess it to your bishop. Even then you have some middlewayers who see it as a commandment to follow an unbinding recommendation and don't have a problem answering that they follow the WoW in their TR interviews.

[Tacenda]

I don't know, technically speaking the WoW is now a "commandment" so depending on how you interpret that, I'd consider breaking a commandment a sin. I do agree that if slip up and have a drink, or smoke once or twice, you probably don't need to see your bishop. On the other hand, if you do it habitually, and unrepentantly, you probably need to confess it to your bishop. Even then you have some middlewayers who see it as a commandment to follow an unbinding recommendation and don't have a problem answering that they follow the WoW in their TR interviews.

I consider it to be a policy of the church but don't believe it's a commandment from God. I see how it separates our church from other faiths and actually see that as strengthening it's uniqueness. But was going off the bible and the scriptures, for instance Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man". Edited October 18, 2012 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

The WoW is a commandment for the Saints. It is part of the agreements to baptism. That being said if a member falls and violates the WoW we're not going to excommunicate them, unless they try to lead other members astray. It is still frowned upon by the Church.

Yet that same Jesus obeyed the law of Moses strictures against eating pork and shellfish.

Edited October 18, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Saints Alive]

But was going off the bible and the scriptures, for instance Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man".

If you believe in Latter-day revelation, that supersedes the bible, although I don't think your interpretation of that verse is correct.

[Tacenda]

If you believe in Latter-day revelation, that supersedes the bible, although I don't think your interpretation of that verse is correct.

http://bible.cc/matthew/15-11.htm

"forbidden meats are unclean themselves, "and defile both body and soul".''

The first food of man was herbs; after the flood he had an allowance of the flesh of beasts, without distinction; under the Levitical dispensation, a difference of meats was enjoined to be observed; the laws respecting that distinction are now abolished, and not binding on us under the Gospel dispensation. Some scruples, about some of these things, did arise among the first Christians; but in process of time these difficulties were got over: nor is there any religion in abstinence from any sort of food; men, indeed, on a "physical" account, ought to be careful what they eat and drink, but not on a religious one; moderation in all ought to be used; and whatever is ate or drank, should be received with thankfulness, and done to the glory of God, and then no defilement can arise from hence:

but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. It is sin, and that only, which takes its rise from the heart, lies in thought, and is either expressed by the mouth, or performed by some outward action, which defiles the man, and renders him loathsome, abominable, and odious in the sight of God. The heart is the source of all evil; the pollution of it is very early, and very general, reaching to all the powers and faculties of the soul; which shows the ignorance of some, and folly of others, that talk of, and trust to the goodness of their hearts; and also the necessity of new hearts and right spirits being formed and created; and that the sinful thoughts of the heart, and the lusts thereof, are defiling to men; and that they are sinful in God's account, and abominable in his sight; that they are loathsome to sensible sinners, and are to be repented of, and forsaken by them; and need the pardoning grace of God or otherwise will be brought into judgment. Sinful words, which, through the abundance of wickedness in the heart, come out of the mouth, have the same influence and effect: words are of a defiling nature; with these men pollute both themselves and others: the tongue, though a little member, defiles the whole body; and evil and corrupt communication proceeding out of the mouth, corrupts the best of manners, and renders men loathsome to God, and liable to his awful judgment. And this is the nature of all sinful actions; they are what God can take no pleasure in; they are disagreeable, to a sensible mind; they leave a stain, which can never be removed by any thing the creature can do; nothing short of the blood of Christ can cleanse from it; and inasmuch as they are frequently committed, there is need of continual application to it. These are now the things men should be concerned about, as of a defiling nature; and not about meats and drinks, and the manner of using them, whether with hands washed, or unwashed.

(d) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 142. 1.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Tacenda

[Biz]

Any more takers on whether or not [not] obeying the word of wisdom is a sin?

[canard78]

Any more takers on whether or not [not] obeying the word of wisdom is a sin?

Absolutely. Not living it is enough to keep you temple unworthy. It's a commandment, not 'optional advice.'