Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I will apologize in advance for starting another WoW thread, hopefully this will be short lived and uncontroversial. I am tring to find the reference for when "hot drinks" was defined as coffee and tea. Everything I have found on LDS.org just says "latter-day prophets" I have heard some suggest that the word of wisdom literally meant hot liquids are not for the belly.
Freedom Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Here is an article that touches on this matter:http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementationI thought there was an official statement by the church defining tea and coffee as the hot drinks to be avoided but I cannot such a statement.
Calm Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 When discussing “hot drinks,” read the following words of the Prophet Joseph Smith given in July 1833, five months after the revelation was received. This will help class members realize that tea and coffee are the hot drinks referred to in the Word of Wisdom.“‘I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said “hot drinks” in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …“‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”’” (Joseph Smith, as quoted by Joel H. Johnson, A Voice from the Mountains [salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12).http://www.lds.org/manual/print/young-women-manual-1/lesson-38-nutrition-and-the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng
Calm Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) This Word of Wisdom prohibits the use of hot drinks and tobacco. I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned therein; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee—the beverages in common use (DBY, 182).http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=0546767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRDThis one wouldn't allow me to copy so you need to go down to "The Lord Promises...." to see what GAS said. Edited October 12, 2012 by calmoriah
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 From the JS quote it makes it seem that the prohibition is actually on all hot drinks, not just coffee and tea. I also find it interesting that the early saints didn't consider coffee and tea hot drinks.
Alan Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 What I find even more interesting about the WoW is that it says that barley is for the making of "mild drinks", as opposed to strong drinks. It appears to me therefore that it is actually saying beer is ok as it is a mild drink made with barley, as opposed to a strong drink made with barley ie Whisky.Beer today is quite strong, but in former days was considered quite mild with perhaps 1% or 2% proof alcohol.
Calm Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) From the JS quote it makes it seem that the prohibition is actually on all hot drinks, not just coffee and tea. How do you get that? Edited October 12, 2012 by calmoriah
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 How do you get that?from reading the quote in context.
Walden Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 When discussing “hot drinks,” read the following words of the Prophet Joseph Smith given in July 1833, five months after the revelation was received. This will help class members realize that tea and coffee are the hot drinks referred to in the Word of Wisdom.“‘I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said “hot drinks” in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …“‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”’” (Joseph Smith, as quoted by Joel H. Johnson, A Voice from the Mountains [salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12).http://www.lds.org/m...wisdom?lang=engWhat about herbal tea? Has there been a distinction regarding herbal vs. regular tea (made from the actual tea leaf)?If we are basing the interpretation off of Joseph's statement above, then wouldn't this mean that even herbal tea is banned, as he specifically stated that “‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”?
thesometimesaint Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Alan:CFR that beer in JS time was 1-2% alcohol.The alcohol content of non-fortified beers depends on length of fermentation of the wort and type of yeast used. IIRC you are in Great Britain. Barley Water is older than dirt and is available in GB TTBOMK.
ERayR Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Alan:CFR that beer in JS time was 1-2% alcohol.The alcohol content of non-fortified beers depends on length of fermentation of the wort and type of yeast used. IIRC you are in Great Britain. Barley Water is older than dirt and is available in GB TTBOMK.Also there is a barley drink made from malted barley and chicory. I have purchased it under the names of Postum and Pero.
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 Also there is a barley drink made from malted barley and chicory. I have purchased it under the names of Postum and Pero. Yeah, but i don't think that was widely used or available then. I think it's pretty clear "mild barley drinks" refers to beer. Beer was perfectly fine among the saints until the church aligned itself with prohibition, then it was acceptable to ban all alcohol. It would be like if caffeine were to be banned today because of the prohibition on "hot drinks" interpreted as tea and coffee and then interpreted as caffeine. Also, regarding beer, the process wasn't very consistent compared to today's drinks. One batch might be as low as 1% ABV or as high as 15% ABV.
Closet Doubter Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 What I find even more interesting about the WoW is that it says that barley is for the making of "mild drinks", as opposed to strong drinks. It appears to me therefore that it is actually saying beer is ok as it is a mild drink made with barley, as opposed to a strong drink made with barley ie Whisky.Beer today is quite strong, but in former days was considered quite mild with perhaps 1% or 2% proof alcohol.I didn't even buy it as a kid but I was taught that mild drinks made from barley meant postum and even though postum wasn't around at the time the Lord knew that it would be available at a later date.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I will apologize in advance for starting another WoW thread, hopefully this will be short lived and uncontroversial. I am tring to find the reference for when "hot drinks" was defined as coffee and tea. Everything I have found on LDS.org just says "latter-day prophets" I have heard some suggest that the word of wisdom literally meant hot liquids are not for the belly.God has always had dietary laws for his people. I don't why it has to be discussed to death. I am just glad it is no longer bacon.
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 God has always had dietary laws for his people. I don't why it has to be discussed to death. I am just glad it is no longer bacon. I think giving up alcohol, coffee, and tea is a fair trade for bacon, if a trade is to be made. Not sure its that much better health wise.
Ahab Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I will apologize in advance for starting another WoW thread, hopefully this will be short lived and uncontroversial.I am tring to find the reference for when "hot drinks" was defined as coffee and tea. Everything I have found on LDS.org just says "latter-day prophets"I have heard some suggest that the word of wisdom literally meant hot liquids are not for the belly.Everything is controversial around here. Haven't you learned that yet?Short lived? I guess we'll see how far this will go, this time.I think the reason you're finding "latter-day prophets" so frequently on LDS.org is because the sources you've found are summarizing all of the individual references to point out what they all agree on. Pretty much all of them say the term "hot drinks" refers to tea and coffee, but some say it is referring to caffeinated versions while others say the decaf is okay. And some include more than just tea and coffee. Neal Maxwell, for example, talked about how hot drinks generally weren't good for the body, including hot soup.I don't know what you hope to get out of a thread like this, but if you're trying to find consensus from everyone on this issue you're barking up the wrong tree. God is one, but individually most of us are still only trying to become one with them.
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 I really just wanted to see which prophet was the one that said hot drinks = tea and coffee and in what context. It seems odd that the lord spells out tobacco and wine but tea and coffee are hot drinks. Given the context for the quote given by calmoriah it appears that it was originally meant to mean literally hot drinks and that the clarification is that tea and coffee fall into that category. Not that those are the only two items in that category. That would seem to agree with Maxwell's POV. However that would also mean that an iced latte would be ok.
ERayR Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Yeah, but i don't think that was widely used or available then. I think it's pretty clear "mild barley drinks" refers to beer. Beer was perfectly fine among the saints until the church aligned itself with prohibition, then it was acceptable to ban all alcohol. It would be like if caffeine were to be banned today because of the prohibition on "hot drinks" interpreted as tea and coffee and then interpreted as caffeine. Also, regarding beer, the process wasn't very consistent compared to today's drinks. One batch might be as low as 1% ABV or as high as 15% ABV.I think I read that it was one of Brigham Young's favorite breakfast beverages.
Saints Alive Posted October 13, 2012 Author Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) I think I read that it was one of Brigham Young's favorite breakfast beverages. beer or postum? Postum wasn't created until 1895 BY died in 1877. Edited October 13, 2012 by Saints Alive
Batgirlsmom Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 I thought I remembered reading long ago that Brigham owned a distillery?Barley drinks have historically meant beer from ancient to modern times. The "mild" adjective in the WoW would seem to indicate low alcohol percentage. So, if I ran out and had a mild beer would I pass my temple recommend interview? Have any modern prophets interpreted what was meant by "mild barley drink" when The Lord told this to Joseph Smith?
ERayR Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 beer or postum? Postum wasn't created until 1895 BY died in 1877.I didn't say beer or postum. I read that Brigham produced his own barley drink which was basically the same ingredients as postum.
DavidB Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 An historical analysis of the word of wisdom. BYU link
blackstrap Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) ... but as for me and Maxwell's House , we will serve gazpacho. Edited October 13, 2012 by blackstrap 2
Calm Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 Barley drinks have historically meant beer from ancient to modern times.CFR please.
Saints Alive Posted October 13, 2012 Author Posted October 13, 2012 I didn't say beer or postum. I read that Brigham produced his own barley drink which was basically the same ingredients as postum.I wonder if James Kellogg knows that he stole the recipe from Brigham? While we are CFR ing, CFR that Brigham produced a barley drink other than beer.
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