Saints Alive Posted October 13, 2012 Author Posted October 13, 2012 I thought I remembered reading long ago that Brigham owned a distillery?That sounds familiar to me as well.
thesometimesaint Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 It would appear that Brigham Young owned at least one distillery.How many distilleries existed in Utah, prior to 1862, cannot be ascertained, though we know there was no scarcity. The revenue collector’s record shows, that between 1862, when the internal revenue system went into effect, and December, 1869, the advent of the railroad and the gentile, there were started in Utah, thirty-seven distilleries, all owned by Mormons and Brigham Young among them. No distillery has been operated in Utah, since 1870. (From “Mormonism and Intoxicants” Theodore Schroeder, Page 421. The American Historical Magazine, Volume 3, January 1908 – November 1908, By Publishing Society of New York, Americana Society) 1
Tacenda Posted October 13, 2012 Posted October 13, 2012 Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. 17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost".
volgadon Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. 17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost".Yep, the classic prooftexts wheeled out against the WoW. Out of context, of course, and ironically, the evangelicals are JUDGING in meat and drink here. Edited October 14, 2012 by volgadon
Tacenda Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Yep, the classic prooftexts wheeled out against the WoW. Out of context, of course, and ironically, the evangelicals are JUDGING in meat and drink here. Don'tcha just love when I borrow from those guys.
volgadon Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Don'tcha just love when I borrow from those guys.As I prize originality, these all-too predictable posts are a little disappointing. 1
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) What about herbal tea? Has there been a distinction regarding herbal vs. regular tea (made from the actual tea leaf)?If we are basing the interpretation off of Joseph's statement above, then wouldn't this mean that even herbal tea is banned, as he specifically stated that “‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”?I've tried to address this subject in every topic regarding the WoW. Nobody ever seems to listen, but I shall press on.There is a confusion in the language, in which the word "tea" originally meant the plant camellia sinensis, which originated in the far east. The most common method of consuming camellia sinensis is in the form of an infusion, which means steeping the dried material in hot or boiling water (an alternate term for this is tisane). Over time, the word tea started to be used to refer to any infusion of an herb, but in Joseph Smith's time tea meant camellia sinensis. In fact, in Great Britain the word tea is often used to refer to a meal -- since tea used to be consumed at most meals, and tea was an important element in British culture. Even LDS families in Great Britain refer to the evening meal as tea time. I remember the first time I was invited to tea by an LDS family in England -- I declined the invitation in some dismay that they would so openly break the Word of Wisdom -- only discovering later that they had simply invited me to dine with them, and that they did not serve tea.So, shall we dispense with treating peppermint tea as a subject of the Word of Wisdom, please? It has nothing to do with it. It's not the method of preparation that is in question, it is the species of plant. Edited October 14, 2012 by Stargazer 1
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no man judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. 17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost".Volgadon is correct when he says that these are invalid prooftexts against the World of Wisdom. Paul was writing about Law of Moses and its prohibitions, and with the fulfillment of The Law by Christ, these things were no longer in effect for the Saints. And Paul was right when he said that the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but this has nothing to do with the Word of Wisdom.Paul himself forbade the Saints from partaking of meat offered to idols, and from consuming blood, thus violating (seemingly) his own pronouncements as you've given them above.The chiildren of Israel were sinning when they partook of pig meat. We do not sin when we do so. And I wouldn't call it a "sin" per se, if you were to drink a beer, Tacenda, but inasmuch as you have taken upon yourself a covenant not to partake of Coors etc., you are breaking the covenant when you have done so. The interesting thing about this is that you will not be brought up for a disciplinary council if you do. Basically, you'd just be asked to get back into compliance.The children of Israel recognized a particular covenant which certain people took upon themselves, called being a Nazirite. It was a voluntary covenant, and the things which were forbidden to a Nazirite were not forbidden to others. A Nazirite who broke his or her covenant before the time had expired for them to remain so (something proclaimed at the start of their service) was expected to make a sin offering, but would from that point just get back into compliance. John the Baptist was considered by some as having been a Nazirite from birth. And it appears that Jesus entered upon a Nazirite vow when he stated "Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." It is just me, perhaps, but I regard my keeping the Word of Wisdom as a vow in the same nature as the Nazirite vow. Besides, it keeps me from getting drunk and doing and saying the stupid things I observe drunks doing and saying. Avoiding foolishness is never a bad thing.
Tacenda Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) To be honest I'm grateful for the WoW as far as alcohol & tobacco go and maybe coffee too because if you're a smoker they sometimes go hand in hand. But there was information in JS day that I believe was used by him and then implemented in the WoW and God could have desired that we follow it but JS was not the first person to speak on it. It was in a health journal at the time & I believe the Quakers may use something similar and the Seventh Day Adventist. Plus alcoholism runs in my family so I feel the WoW helped me avoid that. Edited October 14, 2012 by Tacenda
Saints Alive Posted October 14, 2012 Author Posted October 14, 2012 So, shall we dispense with treating peppermint tea as a subject of the Word of Wisdom, please? It has nothing to do with it. It's not the method of preparation that is in question, it is the species of plant.Actually it is in the context of this thread because the WoW says 'hot drinks' and we are discussing the origin of how that came to mean tea and coffee. (in case anyone forgot what this thread was about)
EllenMaksoud Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 I will apologize in advance for starting another WoW thread, hopefully this will be short lived and uncontroversial.I am tring to find the reference for when "hot drinks" was defined as coffee and tea. Everything I have found on LDS.org just says "latter-day prophets"I have heard some suggest that the word of wisdom literally meant hot liquids are not for the belly.I have a theory about hot drinks. There are people I know who seem like they can drink molten lava. I wonder if drinking things that are too hot are injurious to us?I was Muslim, and think I have seen a trend that I would like to investigate, but do not know when the time will come. As some of you know, Muslims pray 5 times a day and each "prayer cycle" included going down on your hands and knees and putting your forhead on the floor, or a little stone, depending.I've also heard a lot of Muslims say that this relative or that one has or has had esophageal cancer. So, I wonder if in some cases, the esphageal sphincter leaks, allowing acid into the throat, and eventually causing cancer. This is not a subject that one would bring up with Muslims.So, I think that a lot of the Biblical prohibitions and the prohibitions that are in the Word of Wisdom have their basis in wise council.
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Actually it is in the context of this thread because the WoW says 'hot drinks' and we are discussing the origin of how that came to mean tea and coffee. (in case anyone forgot what this thread was about)Must I point out that coffee, tea, and peppermint infusions can all be partaken of iced? They are not, then, hot drinks. So coffee and tea are OK if they are not actually at the time of consumption hot?It does not appear to be the temperature of the beverage that governs the matter. I was trying to indicate that the word "tea" is not the issue, it is the species of the plant that is important.
volgadon Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Must I point out that coffee, tea, and peppermint infusions can all be partaken of iced? They are not, then, hot drinks. So coffee and tea are OK if they are not actually at the time of consumption hot?It does not appear to be the temperature of the beverage that governs the matter. I was trying to indicate that the word "tea" is not the issue, it is the species of the plant that is important.As Brigham indicates, "hot drinks" was a shorthand for tea and coffee specifically.
Calm Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) And Joseph Smith asAs Brigham indicates, "hot drinks" was a shorthand for tea and coffee specifically.And Joseph Smith as well as indicated in my post #3. It seems very simple and straightforward to me.Also George Albert Smith. I suspect I could find a quote from every prophet specifying hot drinks means coffee and tea, not herbal tea or soup or hot water. Edited October 14, 2012 by calmoriah 1
Saints Alive Posted October 14, 2012 Author Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) As Brigham indicates, "hot drinks" was a shorthand for tea and coffee specifically. As he indicates where?! That is the whole point of this thread, I hear latter day prophets say hot drinks = coffee and tea, Brigham young, Joseph Smith, and George Albert Smith apparently have said it too, but the Joseph Smith quote is the only one I have seen in context. His quote seems to clearly indicate that it is in fact the temperature and not the type of drink. Edited October 14, 2012 by Saints Alive
Calm Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) “‘I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said “hot drinks” in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …“‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks”’” (Joseph Smith, as quoted by Joel H. Johnson, A Voice from the Mountains [salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12).Where is there anything about temperature in regards to the tea and coffee identification? Edited October 15, 2012 by calmoriah
Saints Alive Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 The context of that quote is that JS was asked about the revelation, that is where the first quote is from. The second quote is JS response, clarifying that Tea and coffee are included in the term 'hot drinks' not that those are exclusively two drinks that you should avoid but that they are among the 'hot drinks' which should be avoided.
Calm Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Don't buy it. When I say "when I point to the dishes, I mean wash the dishes" I don't mean that there is other stuff that I am including in the task as well.He stated 'tea and coffee are what is meant', not 'tea and coffee are some of what is meant'. Edited October 15, 2012 by calmoriah
Stargazer Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) As he indicates where?! That is the whole point of this thread, I hear latter day prophets say hot drinks = coffee and tea, Brigham young, Joseph Smith, and George Albert Smith apparently have said it too, but the Joseph Smith quote is the only one I have seen in context. His quote seems to clearly indicate that it is in fact the temperature and not the type of drink.The thing is, if hot drinks means anything in hot water, such as coffee, tea, peppermint leaves, then it must necessarily include vegetable soup as well. And beef stew, since all it is, is vegetable soup with some thickener and beef thrown in.Come on, there's too much evidence out there that it doesn't mean the temperature, it means the particular food item, i.e. coffee and tea, aka coffea arabica and camellia sinensis. Any other meaning is to make iced tea and coffee perfectly acceptable.And what is this excessive reverence for anything Joseph Smith said, or is reputed to have said? If Joseph Smith is alleged to have said something that every single prophet from Brigham Young down to Thomas Monson contradicted, what do you think is governing this Church? Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ through revelation to His Prophet? As for me and my house, I vote for modern revelation. Edited October 15, 2012 by Stargazer
Saints Alive Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) I don't care who said it, but it seems that every prophet has quoted JS and perhaps misunderstood and took calmoriah's interpretation vs having his own revelation on the matter. I don't know, that is why I am looking for other quotes, one that take ownership and don't refer back to other unnamed prophets. I don't understand why the Lord explicitly forbid tobacco, and wine, but did not mention coffee and tea by name? Edited October 15, 2012 by Saints Alive
Calm Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Am curious as to why it matters if it has been clarified...one way or the other...what is meant.
Calm Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Tea and coffee are the only hot drinks that are ever referred to by any prophet or commentator. I find it unreasonable to assume that just because they didn't include the word "only" that it must also be referring to something else that has never been identified.Add Hyrum Smith to the list. If you want the quote, I'll put it up later....and no, he didn't use "only" either. 1
volgadon Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I don't care who said it, but it seems that every prophet has quoted JS and perhaps misunderstood and took calmoriah's interpretation vs having his own revelation on the matter. I don't know, that is why I am looking for other quotes, one that take ownership and don't refer back to other unnamed prophets. I don't understand why the Lord explicitly forbid tobacco, and wine, but did not mention coffee and tea by name?Personally, I utterly detest the term "take ownership," it annoys me to no end, but you seem to be ignoring the Brigham Young quote already provided. He was there, he knew, he spoke from personal experience. Not "taking ownership?"
Calm Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) Someone was kind enough to type this in for me already:"The only comment made by the Prophet Joseph Smith, February 27, 1833, when the revelation on the Word of Wisdom was received, is: 'I received the following revelation.' In those early days of the Church men had not been trained when they came into the Church that their bodies were tabernacles which should be kept sanctified and cleansed physically and morally, as well as spiritually. The use of liquor, tobacco and stimulants of various kinds, was very common. Tea and coffee were looked upon as foods, and the same to some extent was the attitude towards alcoholic beverages." (Joseph Fielding Smith, CHMR 1:382-83.)..."On the 27th day of February, 1833, [at Kirtland, Ohio] the Prophet received the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom, warning the people to abstain from impurities and grossness in their food and drink, and promising them rich blessings of physical strength and protection from the power of the adversary as a reward for their obedience. . . . Its delivery to Joseph marks another step in the divine plan for man's eventual elevation to divine acceptability." (George Q. Cannon, LJS, pp. 129-30)..."The Word of Wisdom revelation was given on February 27, 1833, but its acceptance by many in the Church was gradual. On September 9, 1851, some eighteen years after the revelation was given, President Brigham Young proposed in a general conference that all Saints discontinue the use of tea, coffee, tobacco, and whiskey. The motion carried unanimously, and the principle known as the Word of Wisdom was accepted as a binding commandment for all members. ('General Minutes of Conference,' Millennial Star 14:35 [Feb. 1, 1852].) But the Saints were slow to remember their covenants. Repeated admonitions from the prophets to observe the Word of Wisdom met with varying degrees of obedience. As late as the October conference of 1942, the First Presidency (Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and David O. McKay) urged the Saints to 'quit trifling with this law and so to live it that we may claim its promises.'" (First Presidency, IE 45:687, November 1942.)..."The Lord gave in a sacred revelation in 1833 what we have more recently learned through research: 'Hot drinks are not for the body.' This is tea and coffee. 'Tobacco is not for the body . . . and is not good for man. . . . Wine or strong drink . . . is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father.' (See D&C 89:5-9.) The Lord knew when these things were discovered that constant smoking could lead to cancer; that constant drinking could lead to many accidents and diseases. It is now a command to all his members, and as we see some members using these prohibited things, we wonder how they reconcile such activities with the statement of the Lord Jesus Christ when he said: 'And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?' (Luke 6:46.) We sincerely hope the members of the Church will give heed." (Spencer W. Kimball, Ensign, May 1975, p. 6.)...Reference: Companion to Your Study of the Doctrine and Covenants, vol. 1by Daniel H. LudlowI have this book along with four other D&C commentaries, all saying the same thing about tea and coffee. Edited October 15, 2012 by calmoriah
Saints Alive Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) I have this book along with four other D&C commentaries, all saying the same thing about tea and coffee.Ok but the common thread among all of them is that they very well could be referencing the same quote by JS or stating tradition. Why did Maxwell believe the WoW referred to all hot drinks? I'm not debating that it is current practice, but it seems very possible that it could be more tradition and less revelation. I know frontier medicine once thought that hot blood caused illness and thus drinking or eating hot things could cause illness, crazy by todays standards. In the same way the majority of the church thought the curse of cain was doctrine, our current interpretation of the WoW could be speculation. Do you think the idea of the curse of cain would have been corrected if the civil rights movement never occurred? or if we lived in a nation without African Americans? In the same way our current practice of the WoW could be wrong and it would never be challenged because it doesn't discriminate against anyone and is of relatively little importance in the long run. Edited October 15, 2012 by Saints Alive
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