Bart D Ehrman - Jesus Interrupted

[Tramper]

I've recently read Jesus Interrupted by Bart D. Ehrman. The book raises some serious questions about the New Testament. It was a shaking experience to read I must confess. Is there any responses to his book or to the problems he raises? Is there anything written on this subject from scholars within the Church? I am grateful for any reference.

"This title tells the human story behind the divine book. In this "New York Times" bestseller, leading Bible expert Bart Ehrman skillfully demonstrates that the New Testament is riddled with contradictory views about who Jesus was and the significance of his life. Ehrman reveals that many of the books were written in the names of the apostles by Christians living decades later, and that central Christian doctrines were the inventions of still later theologians. Although this has been the standard and widespread view of scholars for two centuries, most people have never learned of it. "Jesus, Interrupted" is a clear and compelling account of the central challenges we have when attempting to reconstruct the life and meaning of Jesus."

[KevinG]

I don't say this to be glib, but the difficulty of gaining a full understanding of Christ through multiple witnesses thousands of years ago is huge. This is one of the great blessings of the restoration, an additional witness of Christ (The book of Mormon) and the gift of the Holy Ghost through which we all might personally come to know Christ.

The book sounds fascinating however- thanks for the heads up.

[Kiviuq]

For me, the question becomes one of how to balance the information Ehrman provides with the LDS premise of a complete apostasy. Can the claim be made that the books that eventually became our Bible, gathered from many possible such writings of many diverse Christian groups, represent the true gospel when the people that created this canon were themselves in a state of apostasy?

[KevinG]

For me, the question becomes one of how to balance the information Ehrman provides with the LDS premise of a complete apostasy. Can the claim be made that the books that eventually became our Bible, gathered from many possible such writings of many diverse Christian groups, represent the true gospel when the people that created this canon were themselves in a state of apostasy?

Lots of false assumptions in that posting.

Your description of "complete apostasy" does not equal the LDS teachings about a general apostasy

The date of the great apostasy or general apostasy is not a fixed or known date

The Bible as great a treasure as a testament of Jesus Christ as it is, is not necessarily a complete and self contained record of the Gospel.

[Tacenda]

I started reading it and didn't make it through before having to return it to the library. Awhile ago I checked different kinds of books on the bible. Regrettably I lost one of them and now if I check out anymore I'll have to pay the fine for that book. I wish I weren't so cheap. But it was an interesting book easy for me to read and that says alot. But didn't get it read all the way through, had a ways to go. I did feel like it might shake my faith in my Savior if I kept reading though.

Edit: I just realized I read part of "Misquoting Jesus" not "Jesus Interrupted" oops.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tacenda

[jwhitlock]

Ehrman is a good biblical scholar, but you also need to understand his background. He grew up as an Evangelical subscribing to the doctrine that the Bible is inerrant. That particular doctrine, which apparently was a foundational aspect of his faith, was called into question from what he studied. He eventually lost his faith, and his belief went to the opposite extreme. He has, in effect, thrown the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, when it comes to Christianity. Rather than prune appropriately, he dug up the tree, roots and all, and threw it out.

With that in mind, there is plenty of evidence out there to call into question the absolute accuracy / inerrancy of the Bible. However, conclusions drawn that because of some mistakes, the whole book must be fictitious, is taking it too far. The general concepts of the Bible concerning Jesus as Savior, the existence of God, etc., are not disproven by Ehrman's conclusions, which are drawn from circumstantial evidence. It points out the necessity of understanding spiritual concepts using first and foremost the Spirit, rather than trying to understand the Bible from an intellectual foundation. Without the spiritual foundation, those who intellectually analyze the Bible (or any other scripture) will come to differing and ultimately inaccurate conclusions concerning those fundamental concepts.

Fortunately for us, we have additional witnesses in the restoration, to bolster that spiritual understanding. Even though we, as Latter-day Saints, recognize that the Bible is missing things and parts have been mistranslated, so to speak, the basis for the book - that God lives, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, that there will be a resurrection, and that salvation comes only thru Christ - is still recognizable and true.

I've read several of Ehrman's books, and enjoy them. However, I know enough to read them for the research, and not necessarily for the conclusions he draws.

[MormonMason]

I started reading it and didn't make it through before having to return it to the library. Awhile ago I checked different kinds of books on the bible. Regrettably I lost one of them and now if I check out anymore I'll have to pay the fine for that book. I wish I weren't so cheap. But it was an interesting book easy for me to read and that says alot. But didn't get it read all the way through, had a ways to go. I did feel like it might shake my faith in my Savior if I kept reading though.

Edit: I just realized I read part of "Misquoting Jesus" not "Jesus Interrupted" oops.

A bit off topic but... The honest thing would be to pay the fine, if you are able. It can't be that big a fine this early in the game. If you aren't able, try to find a way. It is difficult to truly be led by the Spirit when you do what would keep you from the kingdom of heaven. Yes, stealing and any form of dishonesty like that will keep you out. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. No library fine is worth that fate.

No judgment but a friendly warning and expression of concern for someone so filled with doubt on a number of matters. Might there be reasons for that, based upon what you have said?

Now, as to Bart Ehrman, one of his best works is The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. It is worth a read. I agree with most of what is in that volume and can see his point. I do not regard his position on 1 Corinthians 10:9, however, but I also can see why he would come up with what he did on the matter.

I have not read Jesus Interrupted as of yet, with the exception of a few snippets of text here and there, I must confess. It is on my to do reading list. I have read Orthodox Corruption of Scripture and Misquoting Jesus. But, I would expect some degree of differences of opinion and uncertainties in scattered works by differing individuals in ancient times. It is no different in seeing it in modern times. I don't see it as all that big a deal.

It is like trying to solve every riddle and apparently contradictory piece in the Book of Mormon when such should be expected between differing authors. Yes, much of the Book of Mormon was primarily composed by Mormon, a single author, but at times he quotes the work of others and these contain differences of opinion, and even uncertain opinion at best. See, for example, the uncertainty regarding the time line and certain other aspects of the resurrection in the Book of Alma (where Alma is teaching one of his sons and gives his opinions regarding the resurrection), and compare these with the seemingly more certain views of others in the Book of Mormon.

Likewise, we should expect that sort of thing in the Bible. Another thing that appears to affect the Bible are wording that seems to conflict but in reality is a difference in perspective contained in words because of dialectical differences in the authors' Greek. The Bible isn't a systematic theology book and never was intended to be such. We should not treat it as such.

[pmccombs1]

Fortunately for us, we have additional witnesses in the restoration, to bolster that spiritual understanding. Even though we, as Latter-day Saints, recognize that the Bible is missing things and parts have been mistranslated, so to speak, the basis for the book - that God lives, that Jesus Christ is our Savior, that there will be a resurrection, and that salvation comes only thru Christ - is still recognizable and true.

I enjoyed Bart Ehrman's lectures on early Christianity. I knew he challenged the notion of biblical inerrancy and was curious to know how well his research fits in with the Mormon claims of scriptural corruption. Unfortunately, the sort of things Ehrman talks about clearly don't support Mormon ideas of "missing" or "mistranslated" truths.

"Mistranslation" is hardly the problem. We find things like, oh, the story of the woman taken in adultery--a much later addition completely absent from the earliest and best sources. The paradoxical notion of Jesus as both divine AND mortal--a "proto-orthodox" reaction to docetism and groups like the Ebionites. It seems the plain and precious truths weren't taken out of the Bible. They were put in. Redactions? Sure. It's pretty evident that Paul believed the 2nd coming was imminent. They thought they were the latter day saints and Jesus was going to return at any time. When it didn't happen, the text got changed.

I was left with the distinct impression from Ehrman's scholarship that there was very likely no original Christianity at all; Christian diversity was a fact ever since the very beginning, and Christianity had always struggled with faction. I don't think Ehrman leaves "the essentials" intact at all. In fact, these essential doctrines of salvation and resurrection--a divine Jesus--are very much inherited from the group that became Orthodox Christians and were by no means shared by all early Christians, for some of whom the death of Jesus was a tragedy indeed.

I think the LDS response has to be that Ehrman is simply wrong, in spite of his evidence.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I don't say this to be glib, but the difficulty of gaining a full understanding of Christ through multiple witnesses thousands of years ago is huge. This is one of the great blessings of the restoration, an additional witness of Christ (The book of Mormon) and the gift of the Holy Ghost through which we all might personally come to know Christ.

The book sounds fascinating however- thanks for the heads up.

The only problem is when anyone speaks of the clear contradictions there are claims that you hate God, for pointing it out.

[cinepro]

I've recently read Jesus Interrupted by Bart D. Ehrman. The book raises some serious questions about the New Testament. It was a shaking experience to read I must confess. Is there any responses to his book or to the problems he raises? Is there anything written on this subject from scholars within the Church? I am grateful for any reference.

Bart Ehrman is a pretty good scholar, but he can also be hit-or-miss on some of his stuff. I find that I really enjoy the stuff that he's published that supports traditional LDS teachings about the scriptures and apostacy, but I have serious problems with his tenuous arguments that question doctrinal aspects of LDS beliefs about Jesus.

Edited October 1, 2012 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

I have said this before and will say it again- if your testimony is based on scientific, historical evidence you will be in big trouble.

Testimony needs to be based on your own spiritual testimony- that is the only thing which matters and that is the only thing which cannot be taken away.

When God tells you something, what some silly scholar says kind of becomes irrelevant. Scholars do not study spiritual experiences. All the evidence in the world cannot prove or disprove that Jesus was the Christ- only spiritual testimony can do that.

[Tacenda]

A bit off topic but... The honest thing would be to pay the fine, if you are able. It can't be that big a fine this early in the game. If you aren't able, try to find a way. It is difficult to truly be led by the Spirit when you do what would keep you from the kingdom of heaven. Yes, stealing and any form of dishonesty like that will keep you out. See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. No library fine is worth that fate.

No judgment but a friendly warning and expression of concern for someone so filled with doubt on a number of matters. Might there be reasons for that, based upon what you have said?

Now, as to Bart Ehrman, one of his best works is The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. It is worth a read. I agree with most of what is in that volume and can see his point. I do not regard his position on 1 Corinthians 10:9, however, but I also can see why he would come up with what he did on the matter.

I have not read Jesus Interrupted as of yet, with the exception of a few snippets of text here and there, I must confess. It is on my to do reading list. I have read Orthodox Corruption of Scripture and Misquoting Jesus. But, I would expect some degree of differences of opinion and uncertainties in scattered works by differing individuals in ancient times. It is no different in seeing it in modern times. I don't see it as all that big a deal.

It is like trying to solve every riddle and apparently contradictory piece in the Book of Mormon when such should be expected between differing authors. Yes, much of the Book of Mormon was primarily composed by Mormon, a single author, but at times he quotes the work of others and these contain differences of opinion, and even uncertain opinion at best. See, for example, the uncertainty regarding the time line and certain other aspects of the resurrection in the Book of Alma (where Alma is teaching one of his sons and gives his opinions regarding the resurrection), and compare these with the seemingly more certain views of others in the Book of Mormon.

Likewise, we should expect that sort of thing in the Bible. Another thing that appears to affect the Bible are wording that seems to conflict but in reality is a difference in perspective contained in words because of dialectical differences in the authors' Greek. The Bible isn't a systematic theology book and never was intended to be such. We should not treat it as such.

They told me I could hold off paying the 30.00 fee and wait for awhile to see if it eventually turns up. Straight from the horses mouth. But the drawback is that before I can check out more the system requires payment. I keep thinking it'll turn up. Last time I found a lost book lodged underneath the passenger seat. BTW I'm an extremely honest person as far as that goes. Now faith in the LDS church might be something you could lecture me on, if you really wanted too. ;-) Edited October 1, 2012 by Tacenda

[cinepro]

I have said this before and will say it again- if your testimony is based on scientific, historical evidence you will be in big trouble.

If your testimony is based on "scientific, historical evidence", then it isn't a "testimony". It's just something you believe.

[KevinG]

The only problem is when anyone speaks of the clear contradictions there are claims that you hate God, for pointing it out.

I don't have a problem reconciling a perfect God with messages written about Him by imperfect disciples. Perhaps that is what keeps my faith from being shaken by the multitudes of critics and cynics?

[Mark Beesley]

They told me I could hold off paying the 30.00 fee and wait for awhile to see if it eventually turns up. Straight from the horses mouth. But the drawback is that before I can check out more the system requires payment. I keep thinking it'll turn up. Last time I found a lost book lodged unerneath the passenger seat.

Change your name. Create a sock puppet.

I've read Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrupted. Interesting reads. Ehrman accurately identifies a problem. He fails to accurately explain why the problem exists.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[MormonMason]

They told me I could hold off paying the 30.00 fee and wait for awhile to see if it eventually turns up. Straight from the horses mouth. But the drawback is that before I can check out more the system requires payment. I keep thinking it'll turn up. Last time I found a lost book lodged underneath the passenger seat. BTW I'm an extremely honest person as far as that goes. Now faith in the LDS church might be something you could lecture me on, if you really wanted too. ;-)

It wasn't my intention to lecture, and I can do that quite well. Just ask my children and others who know me. It was just a friendly heads' up. Just be careful not to take the advantage of one because of his/her words. That is the advice of the Devil and he would most welcome your participation in that practice. Just actively look for the book and if it doesn't turn up just pay for the book. If it turns up later after paying for it, you own it outright (or could try to return the book to the librarian and attempt to get your fee back). The Lord looks at the effort and at the heart. If there is little effort and little concern, you will have to answer for that--as will we all.

Edited October 2, 2012 by MormonMason

[DialseHes]

yeah, i know some individuals who have had their lifes destoyed going to this cult

They decide on weak women and make them slaves to the church (cult)

They make you believe all the pieces you are doing is for God and God will bless you

in every approach of your life if you put them first

I do know Pastor John Mcmartin likes to say, "it not about you"

People who suppose twice turning into becoming a member of one in all these cults

[bluebell]

yeah, i know some individuals who have had their lifes destoyed going to this cult

They decide on weak women and make them slaves to the church (cult)

They make you believe all the pieces you are doing is for God and God will bless you

in every approach of your life if you put them first

I do know Pastor John Mcmartin likes to say, "it not about you"

People who suppose twice turning into becoming a member of one in all these cults

[mfbukowski]

If your testimony is based on "scientific, historical evidence", then it isn't a "testimony". It's just something you believe.

Someone gave you a rep point for this?

[mfbukowski]

yeah, i know some individuals who have had their lifes destoyed going to this cult

They decide on weak women and make them slaves to the church (cult)

They make you believe all the pieces you are doing is for God and God will bless you

in every approach of your life if you put them first

I do know Pastor John Mcmartin likes to say, "it not about you"

People who suppose twice turning into becoming a member of one in all these cults

Looks like he didn't even make it to three strikes!

[lithpblithh]

I haven't read "Jesus Interrupted" or this book, but from the descriptions it looks like this would be a relevant (and highly rated) book to read:

Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony by Richard Bauckham

And to MormonMason, give me a break, going to hell because you don't pay a library fine? On the contrary, taxation is theft and to take stolen goods from a thief is no sin. When you take a book from the library you aren't stealing it you're liberating it.

[Tacenda]

I haven't read "Jesus Interrupted" or this book, but from the descriptions it looks like this would be a relevant (and highly rated) book to read:

Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony by Richard Bauckham

And to MormonMason, give me a break, going to hell because you don't pay a library fine? On the contrary, taxation is theft and to take stolen goods from a thief is no sin. When you take a book from the library you aren't stealing it you're liberating it.

When the librarian tells me to see if it turns up first before paying I hardly think that is stealing. I think Mormon Mason might be playing with my head.

[MormonMason]

I haven't read "Jesus Interrupted" or this book, but from the descriptions it looks like this would be a relevant (and highly rated) book to read:

Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony by Richard Bauckham

And to MormonMason, give me a break, going to hell because you don't pay a library fine? On the contrary, taxation is theft and to take stolen goods from a thief is no sin. When you take a book from the library you aren't stealing it you're liberating it.

When you take something that does not belong to you and you do not pay for it, you are stealing. When you lose something that does not belong to you, you are obligated to replace it unless the owner says otherwise. If you take advantage of a person's words, concerning something like that you are stealing. Theft carries with it a heavy penalty, as does dishonesty. Again, see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. But, Satan says it is OK to do all these things, to take advantage of someone because of what they tell you, and even to dig a pit for your neighbor. But, what do you get in return? You get Satan dragging you down to hell.

And, no, Tacenda, I am not playing around. How long ago did the librarian tell you this? I am deadly serious. If you justify it it will explain and exacerbate certain things you lack in your claimed struggle with faith. You will be amazed how good you will feel when you pay that fine and are done with it. You also will have made the work available again to those who would have been able to borrow the work had it still been there. It is also not fair to those who would like to borrow this book either to wait longer or never be able to borrow it.

What you say all reminds me of a missionary I once knew who asked the librarian how much he would have to pay for a book if he lost it. The librarian had no idea what the library had as to value and replacement cost but assumed an original replacement cost. The missionary two weeks later claimed that he lost the book and paid the $50 fee so he could keep it for himself. The book was worth at the time over $500 to replace it, and that missionary knew it. What he did was wrong, it was selfish, and I have no wonders as to why he failed left and right in many spiritual things. He walked in darkness that could be seen by those who can see such things. It is hard to have the Spirit of the Lord with one in strength when one is dishonest in one's dealings with one's fellow men or takes advantage of them.

At least Tacenda claims that she did not do this intentionally. That is one count in her favor.

And people wonder why it is that people have crises of faith that last so long? Lacking the Spirit in his strength only serves to prolong the agony of such an ordeal of faith in the face of doubt.

Edited October 2, 2012 by MormonMason

[Tacenda]

When you take something that does not belong to you and you do not pay for it, you are stealing. When you lose something that does not belong to you, you are obligated to replace it unless the owner says otherwise. If you take advantage of a person's words, concerning something like that you are stealing. Theft carries with it a heavy penalty, as does dishonesty. Again, see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. But, Satan says it is OK to do all these things, to take advantage of someone because of what they tell you, and even to dig a pit for your neighbor. But, what do you get in return? You get Satan dragging you down to hell.

And, no, Tacenda, I am not playing around. How long ago did the librarian tell you this? I am deadly serious. If you justify it it will explain and exacerbate certain things you lack in your claimed struggle with faith. You will be amazed how good you will feel when you pay that fine and are done with it. You also will have made the work available again to those who would have been able to borrow the work had it still been there. It is also not fair to those who would like to borrow this book either to wait longer or never be able to borrow it.

What you say all reminds me of a missionary I once knew who asked the librarian how much he would have to pay for a book if he lost it. The librarian had no idea what the library had as to value and replacement cost but assumed an original replacement cost. The missionary two weeks later claimed that he lost the book and paid the $50 fee so he could keep it for himself. The book was worth at the time over $500 to replace it, and that missionary knew it. What he did was wrong, it was selfish, and I have no wonders as to why he failed left and right in many spiritual things. He walked in darkness that could be seen by those who can see such things. It is hard to have the Spirit of the Lord with one in strength when one is dishonest in one's dealings with one's fellow men or takes advantage of them.

At least Tacenda claims that she did not do this intentionally. That is one count in her favor.

And people wonder why it is that people have crises of faith that last so long? Lacking the Spirit in his strength only serves to prolong the agony of such an ordeal of faith in the face of doubt.

Oh wow, I'd swear this was Selek 1. He'd play head games too. I would never stoop as low as your missionary acquaintance, now that would be stealing.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Tacenda

[MormonMason]

Oh wow, I'd swear this was Selek 1. He'd play head games too. I would never stoop as low as your missionary acquaintance, now that would be stealing.

That missionary also lied. He never lost the book. Liars go to hell, too, as well as those who love lies. (See the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants for this information as all agree). And, no, I am not playing head games here. I am deadly serious. I also am not nor ever have been anyone named or used a pseudonym like Selek1 or anything like. I am trying to help not hinder, and I do not play the sort of head games of which you seemingly but wrongly accuse me.