Bart D Ehrman - Jesus Interrupted

[volgadon]

And to MormonMason, give me a break, going to hell because you don't pay a library fine? On the contrary, taxation is theft and to take stolen goods from a thief is no sin. When you take a book from the library you aren't stealing it you're liberating it.

Your post is just as silly as his.

[volgadon]

When the librarian tells me to see if it turns up first before paying I hardly think that is stealing.

You are right.

[MormonMason]

You are right.

But, how long does one wait to see if it turns up? A few weeks? A month? A few months? A year? A few years? A few decades? Never? How long before it becomes taking "the advantage of one because of his words" (2 Nephi 28:8 ), and thereby becomes stealing?

Edited October 2, 2012 by MormonMason

[volgadon]

But, how long does one wait to see if it turns up? A few weeks? A month? A few months? A year? A few years? A few decades? Never? How long before it becomes taking "the advantage of one because of his words" (2 Nephi 28:8 ), and thereby becomes stealing?

That would depend on the situation. I don't know more details than what Tacenda shared, and I am inclined to take her word for it.

[MormonMason]

That would depend on the situation. I don't know more details than what Tacenda shared, and I am inclined to take her word for it.

And I already have done likewise. In fact, in post 23 I wrote:

At least Tacenda claims that she did not do this intentionally. That is one count in her favor.

[volgadon]

And I already have done likewise. In fact, in post 23 I wrote:

Yet you still seem to consider it stealing and lying. I don't.

[Stargazer]

But, how long does one wait to see if it turns up? A few weeks? A month? A few months? A year? A few years? A few decades? Never? How long before it becomes taking "the advantage of one because of his words" (2 Nephi 28:8 ), and thereby becomes stealing?

When I was in the Army, stationed at Ft. Lewis, I had a good LDS friend in another unit, and until he got transferred to another post and eventually left the Army, I lost track of him and vice versa. Problem was, I had borrowed a book of his and mislaid it. One thing and another, but once I refound the book I hung on to it (just a paperback worth perhaps a couple bucks) for many years. When Facebook came into being, I happened to find him on it, and got his address (he lives on the east coast now). I mailed him his book back. It took me 33 years to get it back to him, but I did!

Don't think I am some kind of hero. Perfection is a long way away from me. But in that one case I could redeem myself. I don't even think he remembered that book, but I did.

But I don't think Tacenda is going to hell for a library book.

There is the Atonement, after all.

[MormonMason]

Yet you still seem to consider it stealing and lying. I don't.

No, you are missing the point of what I am saying. It will become that if she doesn't pay the loss fee. I am not saying that it is the case for her as of yet. See my one line comment at post 23 again. But, there is more than just her spiritual well being but her financial well being at stake. The longer she waits to pay that fee the more she will have to pay. Some libraries charge a per annum increase of 12 or more percent. In a few years it will be a fine of hundreds of dollars. Better to pay it outright and then own the book should she locate it later than to incur horrendous library fees over and above what she already owes. But, if she refuses to pay it, then, yes, she would be stealing from the library and most likely preventing them from replacing the book in future.

Edited October 2, 2012 by MormonMason

[Tacenda]

But, how long does one wait to see if it turns up? A few weeks? A month? A few months? A year? A few years? A few decades? Never? How long before it becomes taking "the advantage of one because of his words" (2 Nephi 28:8 ), and thereby becomes stealing?

I love going to the library. It has a computer system that won't let you check out a book again until the fine is paid. So this won't be never or all of the above, thank you very much!

[MormonMason]

When I was in the Army, stationed at Ft. Lewis, I had a good LDS friend in another unit, and until he got transferred to another post and eventually left the Army, I lost track of him and vice versa. Problem was, I had borrowed a book of his and mislaid it. One thing and another, but once I refound the book I hung on to it (just a paperback worth perhaps a couple bucks) for many years. When Facebook came into being, I happened to find him on it, and got his address (he lives on the east coast now). I mailed him his book back. It took me 33 years to get it back to him, but I did!

Don't think I am some kind of hero. Perfection is a long way away from me. But in that one case I could redeem myself. I don't even think he remembered that book, but I did.

But I don't think Tacenda is going to hell for a library book.

There is the Atonement, after all.

Someone I know travelled on foot for over sixty miles to pay a nickel back to someone to whom he had owed money. The modern version of the ideal is that written here (being a summary of the scriptures as whole):

20 ^aSeek ye; and keep all your ^bpledges one with another; and ^ccovet not that which is thy brother’s.

* * * * *

25 If thou ^aborrowest of thy ^bneighbor, thou shalt ^crestore that which thou hast borrowed; and if thou canst not repay then go straightway and tell thy neighbor, lest he condemn thee.

26 If thou shalt find that which thy neighbor has ^alost, thou shalt make diligent search till thou shalt ^bdeliver it to him again.

(Doctrine and Covenants 136: 20, 25-26)

I am not saying that she is going to hell now, but thieves and liars do not enter into the kingdom of God, according 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and other passages. Better to avoid becoming such.

Yes, there is the atonement. Even many of those whom Paul addressed were such as those classes he mentioned, but they were cleansed. But, to take advantage of the atonement requires repentance, and true repentance requires as much restitution as is humanly possible, as well as cessation of the sin. (If she does what she is supposed to do, and keeps her word, there is not yet a need for repentance). That is what the scriptures teach as a whole. And that is no more than I am implying.

As I have written above, it is not a condemnation but a warning so that she will not be condemned.

[MormonMason]

I love going to the library. It has a computer system that won't let you check out a book again until the fine is paid. So this won't be never or all of the above, thank you very much!

Wonderful! Then you have nothing really to worry about for the present. As I stated from the outset, it was just a warning not a condemnation or a lecturing. But, everybody just seems to keep missing the point of it all.

[volgadon]

I've read several of Ehrman's books, and enjoy them. However, I know enough to read them for the research, and not necessarily for the conclusions he draws.

I'm not much of an Ehrman fan, I think your point can't be emphasised enough.

[Tacenda]

Someone I know travelled on foot for over sixty miles to pay a nickel back to someone to whom he had owed money. The modern version of the ideal is that written here (being a summary of the scriptures as whole):

I am not saying that she is going to hell now, but thieves and liars do not enter into the kingdom of God, according 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and other passages. Better to avoid becoming such.

Yes, there is the atonement. Even many of those whom Paul addressed were such as those classes he mentioned, but they were cleansed. But, to take advantage of the atonement requires repentance, and true repentance requires as much restitution as is humanly possible, as well as cessation of the sin. (If she does what she is supposed to do, and keeps her word, there is not yet a need for repentance). That is what the scriptures teach as a whole. And that is no more than I am implying.

As I have written above, it is not a condemnation but a warning so that she will not be condemned.

I have a story for you MM. It's a little embarassing but it happened. I don't know too many people that would do this it was insane. Anyway it should hopefully stop the insanity of these posts. Here goes... I roomed with a gal that was a nurse and she was much older and we hardly knew one another at first. Well one night I had some friends over for a get together and the next day I started to clean up the area which was in the basement (it was a 3 story condo)well I grabbed a paper sack that I thought was garbage and took it along with other garbage out to the trash. It was garbage day. This happened so long ago so my memory is sketchy. But come to find out one of the sacks wasn't trash it was my new roommates keepsakes. I must have realized my mistake or something and called my roommate. I asked her what was in the sack and she told me the items were things she'd saved through the years. Well after hearing that I felt so bad about it that I tracked down the garbage truck and drove go to the dump site and located where the dumptruck unloaded it with help from the driver. And jumped in all that garbage to locate the sack. When I finally spotted it I was shocked to see matchbooks she'd saved from various locations she'd been to. Can't recall any of the other items but will never forget the feeling of standing in all that gross garbage hunting for what turns out to be matchbooks/matches! So I do have a conscience, so much so that I feel like I'm at fault for things that I usually have really nothing to do with. My mom told me when I was a child we were walking down the sidewalk with the neighbor lady, she tripped and fell. My mom said I turned to her and asked her if I'd done that to her. So guilt complex at a young age. Something made me think just now why you thought I wasn't going to pay the fine. In my post I said I was too cheap. I think you misunderstood, I meant I'm too cheap to buy books alot so I use the library. Not that that's being too cheap or anything. OK end of story. Edited October 2, 2012 by Tacenda

[MormonMason]

I have a story for you MM. It's a little embarassing but it happened. I don't know too many people that would do this it was insane. Anyway it should hopefully stop the insanity of these posts. Here goes... I roomed with a gal that was a nurse and she was much older and we hardly knew one another at first. Well one night I had some friends over for a get together and the next day I started to clean up the area which was in the basement (it was a 3 story condo)well I grabbed a paper sack that I thought was garbage and took it along with other garbage out to the trash. It was garbage day. This happened so long ago so my memory is sketchy. But come to find out one of the sacks wasn't trash it was my new roommates keepsakes. I must have realized my mistake or something and called my roommate. I asked her what was in the sack and she told me the items were things she'd saved through the years. Well after hearing that I felt so bad about it that I tracked down the garbage truck and drove go to the dump site and located where the dumptruck unloaded it with help from the driver. And jumped in all that garbage to locate the sack. When I finally spotted it I was shocked to see matchbooks she'd saved from various locations she'd been to. Can't recall any of the other items but will never forget the feeling of standing in all that gross garbage hunting for what turns out to be matchbooks/matches! So I do have a conscious and so much so that I feel like I'm at fault for things that I usually have really nothing to do with. My mom told me when I was a child we were walking down the sidewalk with the neighbor lady, she tripped and fell. My mom said I turned to her and asked her if I'd done that to her. So guilt complex at a young age. Something made me think just now why you thought I wasn't going to pay the fine. In my post I said I was too cheap. I think you misunderstood, I meant I'm too cheap to buy books alot so I use the library not that that's being too cheap or anything. OK end of story.

Thank you for clarification. I would not be too embarrassed by this story. You did exactly what you should have done. These keepsakes meant a lot to her even if they might mean nothing to someone else or even to ourselves. What is one man's (or woman's) garbage is another man's (or woman's) treasure. But, in spite of the grossness, I feel you did the right thing and hope that you continue to do the same or similar in future.

Now, we return to our regular scheduled programming...(we hope!).

[Calm]

They told me I could hold off paying the 30.00 fee and wait for awhile to see if it eventually turns up. Straight from the horses mouth. But the drawback is that before I can check out more the system requires payment. I keep thinking it'll turn up. Last time I found a lost book lodged underneath the passenger seat. BTW I'm an extremely honest person as far as that goes. Now faith in the LDS church might be something you could lecture me on, if you really wanted too. ;-)

You should check on the shelves at the library as well. Sometimes books get shelved without being processed.

[Tacenda]

You should check on the shelves at the library as well. Sometimes books get shelved without being processed.

They checked once before but that's a great suggestion, I'll have them check again.

[MormonMason]

You should check on the shelves at the library as well. Sometimes books get shelved without being processed.

Oh yes, definitely do this. If your library prints receipts you should have the ID number of the book on it. The librarian can check on that number, too.

[Verum]

Bart Ehrman is a pretty good scholar, but he can also be hit-or-miss on some of his stuff. I find that I really enjoy the stuff that he's published that supports traditional LDS teachings about the scriptures and apostacy, but I have serious problems with his tenuous arguments that question doctrinal aspects of LDS beliefs about Jesus.

Cinepro, can you (or anyone else here) elaborate a little bit? I am curious to what things you specifically have problems with. I ask because I am currently 65% through Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus. I have a few thoughts myself but would curious to hear what people have issues with. On the one hand, it strengthens my belief in an influential and historical Jesus that actually existed. Also, my reading of his book so far strengthens the argument for apostasy and the fact the there was order and organization in the early church similar to that which was restored in LDS church. But on the other hand, his work is very compelling on its analysis of both the intentional and accidental manuscript changes that influenced the widely held Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection.

[bluebell]

Cinepro, can you (or anyone else here) elaborate a little bit? I am curious to what things you specifically have problems with. I ask because I am currently 65% through Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus. I have a few thoughts myself but would curious to hear what people have issues with. On the one hand, it strengthens my belief in an influential and historical Jesus that actually existed. Also, my reading of his book so far strengthens the argument for apostasy and the fact the there was order and organization in the early church similar to that which was restored in LDS church. But on the other hand, his work is very compelling on its analysis of both the intentional and accidental manuscript changes that influenced the widely held Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection.

The only book by Ehrman that i've read was one on the Divinci Code, which was very interesting. I did notice though that Ehrman often would take his interpretation of verses and present them as if they were obvious fact, ignoring any options that did not fit in with his beliefs.

It's been a couple months since i read the book, and i got it from the library so no longer have it with me, but one such example dealt with verses in the NT where Christ claimed that some of his apostles would still be alive when the second coming occurred. He uses it as an example of how Jesus was obviously a part of the apocalyptic(sp?) religious movement so popular during his lifetime among certain Jews and that Jesus' showed how His doctrine was shaped by the times He lived in.

It didn't surprise me at all that Ehrman, being an atheist or agnostic (i don't remember which off the top of my head) would interpret such verses the way that he did, but at the same time, it did show that he wasn't really interested in presenting any interpretations that did not support his views and so I needed to take his ideas with a bit of a grain of salt.

Edited October 2, 2012 by bluebell

[Calm]

They checked once before but that's a great suggestion, I'll have them check again.

I would do it myself. I've had librarians look for stuff that they couldn't find that I did even though it was right where it was supposed to be. I used to work in a library so I know how confusing dealing with that many books can be.

[Damien the Leper]

I've read quite a few of Ehrman's books. I like him. But I like his mentor, Bruce Metzger, even more. I'm grateful to Metzger for his work and his participation in bringing for the RSV and NRSV Bibles.

[Tramper]

I haven't read "Jesus Interrupted" or this book, but from the descriptions it looks like this would be a relevant (and highly rated) book to read:

Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony by Richard Bauckham

And to MormonMason, give me a break, going to hell because you don't pay a library fine? On the contrary, taxation is theft and to take stolen goods from a thief is no sin. When you take a book from the library you aren't stealing it you're liberating it.

Thanks, I will check it up!

Is there anything written by LDS-apologists on the trustworthiness of the New Testament?

[Calm]

And to MormonMason, give me a break, going to hell because you don't pay a library fine? On the contrary, taxation is theft and to take stolen goods from a thief is no sin. When you take a book from the library you aren't stealing it you're liberating it.

It is about making promises and keeping them. If you can't or won't do this for the small stuff, why should one be trusted in the large stuff? If I knew a person who made a habit of not returning books to libraries and not paying for their replacements even after trying to work with the system (not saying this is what Tacenda ever intended, I have done exactly the same as what she did only our librarian allowed me to continue to check out books while the lost one was taken care of and I even refused to go back to a library when they charged me two times twice for late fees which were cleared up eventually because I didn't want to hassle with a faulty accounting system), why should I trust someone who makes it known how he gets out of paying what he owes when he's failed in caring for something he's borrow to care for and return things to me who has a much lower likelihood of being able to force him to meet the promises he made to me when borrowing something or doing something for me? Edited October 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

No, you are missing the point of what I am saying. It will become that if she doesn't pay the loss fee. I am not saying that it is the case for her as of yet. See my one line comment at post 23 again. But, there is more than just her spiritual well being but her financial well being at stake. The longer she waits to pay that fee the more she will have to pay. Some libraries charge a per annum increase of 12 or more percent. In a few years it will be a fine of hundreds of dollars. Better to pay it outright and then own the book should she locate it later than to incur horrendous library fees over and above what she already owes. But, if she refuses to pay it, then, yes, she would be stealing from the library and most likely preventing them from replacing the book in future.

Most libraries I've worked at or with stop the fee accumulating when you report the book lost. Then they give you a certain amount of time to find it and/or replace it. But one should always check. Edited October 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Wonderful! Then you have nothing really to worry about for the present. As I stated from the outset, it was just a warning not a condemnation or a lecturing. But, everybody just seems to keep missing the point of it all.

I think it is a good reminder, it is a shame if we let our distaste for dealing with something deprive us of opportunities. How many time would we go to a library, friend's house, etc if we were 'right' with them in our heart and mind but avoid them because of some little thing we don't want to deal with.