Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Races

TruthSeeker24

By TruthSeeker24
in General Discussions

Recommended Posts

KevinG Grand Master

KevinG

Posted
Posted

I've been a member long enough to know that Grace is downplayed in the church. When is the last time you've heard "Amazing Grace" sung at church? Also, the word Grace has been taken out of church hymns from what I've learned. Why might that be?

We don't own the copyright or have permission to reproduce it?

Ares Experienced

Ares

Posted
Posted

paharon is you need to win just go ahead and claim your false victory.....you are very tiresome. have fun.

Answer the CFR and stop badgering other posters.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

I've been a member long enough to know that Grace is downplayed in the church. When is the last time you've heard "Amazing Grace" sung at church? Also, the word Grace has been taken out of church hymns from what I've learned. Why might that be?

Have you considered that your lack of contact with the Spirit through prayer and study of uplifting material such as the scriptures might have an effect on your ability to perceive the teachings of Grace that are in our talks and classes?

My experience is that I find God's grace in everything that we are taught in every ward I've been in since a child....and that is way too many wards. What is making the difference do you think? I don't think it's because I am a genius or can mindread the manual writers. ;)

Edited by calmoriah
2
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

We don't own the copyright or have permission to reproduce it?

My understanding was that there was some aspect of the song that was not accurate LDS doctrine in the sense of how others interpret the song and since we don't own the copyright we can't alter it to avoid misinterpretation. Hymns are now being treated much like manuals, meant to be in tune with the scriptures and not based on man made philosophies.

Even so, there is nothing wrong with singing it as demonstrated by the MoTabChoir doing their own version or two over the years.

You might enjoy: http://www.lds.org/liahona/2012/04/amazing-grace?lang=eng

“Grace is the power of God from the Atonement of Jesus Christ,” my teacher explained. “I divide grace into four powers: resurrection, redemption, healing, and strengthening.”
We talk about Grace in practical terms, not in the abstract, in the LDS faith, grace in action and thus it may not always be called grace even though it is a part of God's grace.
How Does the Lord’s Grace Affect Our Lives?

Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles helps answer this question in “The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality” in this issue on page 12:

  • “The Lord desires, through His Atonement and by the power of theHoly Ghost, to live in us—not only to direct us but also to empower us.”
  • “Individual willpower, personal determination and motivation, effective planning and goal setting are necessary but ultimately insufficient for us to triumphantly complete this mortal journey. Truly, we must come to rely upon ‘the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah’ (2 Nephi 2:8).”
  • “The enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.”

More on Grace:

http://www.lds.org/new-era/2012/08/his-grace-is-sufficient?lang=eng

Edited by calmoriah
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

We also have many hymns with the topic of Grace even if we don't include Amazing Grace:

I Stand All Amazed is a wonderful companion piece for Amazing Grace:

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,

Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.

I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,

That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.

Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me

Enough to die for me!

Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine

To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,

That he should extend his great love unto such as I,

Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

I think of his hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt!

Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?

No, no, I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,

Until at the glorified thrown I kneel at his feet.

You might want to consider downloading your favourite spiritual hymns and when you can't bring yourself to read scripture, why not sing scripture instead and worship the Lord as well?

Even teach yourself some new songs using the interactive church music program online that is excellent to learn parts and everything.

I had to quit piano lessons awhile back so I am probably back to square one so I think I will pull out my easy LDS Hymn book and get myself back up to speed.....don't have to take lessons to play the basics thank goodness.

Edited by calmoriah
1
Cobalt-70 Grand Master

Cobalt-70

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think it would be better to see this as Joseph Smith learning Hebrew in 1835-1836 and realizing as he came across this passage that the context of the passage better fit the English word "pure" rather than "white" which would have been the literal meaning on the plates.

Think about what you are saying. You are saying that even though the golden plates were written in "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphs, Joseph Smith "saw" not Egyptian, but for some strange reason he saw Hebrew in his seer stone in 1829. Then even though he did not know Hebrew from Greek, he somehow translated the Hebrew into English. Then after 1835, Smith happened to remember the exact Hebrew words that he saw in the stone, but this time he understood their meaning from all his new book-learning, and created a better translation from his own ingenuity than the mystical translation provided by the seer stone.

Edited by Cobalt-70
brightpath Collaborator

brightpath

Posted
Posted

Race does play a big part. God has always worked with a chosen lineage throughout the beginning of time. The gospel and priesthood came through Shem. Shem was the prince of peace. The Hebrews and Israel came from this lineage. The Gentiles came through Japeth and the blacks came through Ham. The Gentiles never had the gospel or the holy ghost until Jesus died and sent his apostles out to preach and covert in 34 AD. Israel will close the earth and build the New Jerusalem so race and lineage is very important in Gods plan.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

We also have many hymns with the topic of Grace even if we don't include Amazing Grace:

I Stand All Amazed is a wonderful companion piece for Amazing Grace:

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,

Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.

I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,

That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.

Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me

Enough to die for me!

Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine

To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,

That he should extend his great love unto such as I,

Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

I think of his hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt!

Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?

No, no, I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,

Until at the glorified thrown I kneel at his feet.

You might want to consider downloading your favourite spiritual hymns and when you can't bring yourself to read scripture, why not sing scripture instead and worship the Lord as well?

Even teach yourself some new songs using the interactive church music program online that is excellent to learn parts and everything.

I had to quit piano lessons awhile back so I am probably back to square one so I think I will pull out my easy LDS Hymn book and get myself back up to speed.....don't have to take lessons to play the basics thank goodness.

This song is my mom's and my favorite. "I Stand All Amazed" was sung at her funeral.

But I'm sorry, that says alot right there if the church can't use "Amazing Grace" if they want to go in and change it's meaning.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

We also have many hymns with the topic of Grace even if we don't include Amazing Grace:

I Stand All Amazed is a wonderful companion piece for Amazing Grace:

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,

Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.

I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,

That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.

Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me

Enough to die for me!

Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine

To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,

That he should extend his great love unto such as I,

Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

I think of his hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt!

Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?

No, no, I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,

Until at the glorified thrown I kneel at his feet.

You might want to consider downloading your favourite spiritual hymns and when you can't bring yourself to read scripture, why not sing scripture instead and worship the Lord as well?

Even teach yourself some new songs using the interactive church music program online that is excellent to learn parts and everything.

I had to quit piano lessons awhile back so I am probably back to square one so I think I will pull out my easy LDS Hymn book and get myself back up to speed.....don't have to take lessons to play the basics thank goodness.

This song is my mom's and my favorite. "I Stand All Amazed" was sung at her funeral.

But I'm sorry, that says alot right there if the church can't use "Amazing Grace" if they want to go in and change it's meaning.

MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted

Think about what you are saying. You are saying that even though the golden plates were written in "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphs, Joseph Smith "saw" not Egyptian, but for some strange reason he saw Hebrew in his seer stone in 1829. Then even though he did not know Hebrew from Greek, he somehow translated the Hebrew into English. Then after 1835, Smith happened to remember the exact Hebrew words that he saw in the stone, but this time he understood their meaning from all his new book-learning, and created a better translation from his own ingenuity than the mystical translation provided by the seer stone.

Nope! You have my position wrong again. Here, let me Tannerize my next statements so you can better understand. I also explained to you that words translated "white" literally in BOTH EGYPTIAN AND HEBREW, also mean "pure" in many texts where they are found. I never said anything about Joseph Smith seeing Hebrew in the seer stone. I NEVER SAID OR WROTE that he translated Hebrew into English. THAT IS YOUR MISINTERPRETATION of my words. Also, I mentioned repeatedly that the Book of Mormon WAS WRITTEN IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE EGYPTIANS WITH THE LEARNING OF THE JEWS. This means that there would be Hebrew usages and meanings incorporated into Egyptian text. Yet, somehow you keep missing that and keep missing the point.

Fact is, Joseph Smith had learned Hebrew in 1835-36. Fact is, IN BOTH HEBREW AND EGYPTIAN the same words meaning "white" often also mean "pure." Fact: Joseph Smith made the alteration in the text. Joseph Smith either did one of two things here. He saw the word "pure" in the Original Manuscript (which has an average difference of three variants per page in the Printer's Manuscript and might have been altered to "white" by Oliver Cowdery during copying), or he realized that some words (based upon his Hebrew learning) that were translated "white" are better expressed as "pure" and modified the text accordingly.

And, yes, even prophets learn. I can guarantee that if Joseph Smith had been able to translate the Book of Mormon at a later time instead of when he did, he would have done things a little differently. The same goes for if anyone else besides Joseph Smith had translated them. It would have been different textually.

Either way, both "white" and "pure" are correct. The former is the denotation and the latter the connotation in 2 Nephi 30:6. It is much like what happened to Daniel 11:35 and 12:10. Translators decided that one was better than the other. Translators often do revise their work as well, and this sort of thing happens all the time with translations of ancient texts, even in the academic community. Why does it have to be otherwise with the Book of Mormon?

ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted

I've been a member long enough to know that Grace is downplayed in the church. When is the last time you've heard "Amazing Grace" sung at church? Also, the word Grace has been taken out of church hymns from what I've learned. Why might that be?

Because you get all your talking points from anti-Mormon sites. Start actually listening instead of weighing it against the anti-Mormon litany.

1
MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted

I've been a member long enough to know that Grace is downplayed in the church. When is the last time you've heard "Amazing Grace" sung at church? Also, the word Grace has been taken out of church hymns from what I've learned. Why might that be?

Maybe to prevent members from focusing too hard on that principle over the other equally important principles the scriptures teach us? Maybe to remove a false doctrine that may be found in the original rendition of a song? As to taking out "grace" from the Church hymns, why not give us specifics so we can look at them and discuss them?

TAO Mentor

TAO

Posted
Posted (edited)

Tacenda, Amazing Grace was played at my building either this year or last year if I remember correctly. I think it probably depends on your location. I live in the Cali. Of course, I could just be remembering wrong, but yeah... pretty sure I heard it.

Edited by TAO
ERayR Grand Master

ERayR

Posted
Posted (edited)

We also have many hymns with the topic of Grace even if we don't include Amazing Grace:

I Stand All Amazed is a wonderful companion piece for Amazing Grace:

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,

Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.

I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,

That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.

Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me

Enough to die for me!

Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!

I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine

To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,

That he should extend his great love unto such as I,

Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

I think of his hands pierced and bleeding to pay the debt!

Such mercy, such love and devotion can I forget?

No, no, I will praise and adore at the mercy seat,

Until at the glorified thrown I kneel at his feet.

You might want to consider downloading your favourite spiritual hymns and when you can't bring yourself to read scripture, why not sing scripture instead and worship the Lord as well?

Even teach yourself some new songs using the interactive church music program online that is excellent to learn parts and everything.

I had to quit piano lessons awhile back so I am probably back to square one so I think I will pull out my easy LDS Hymn book and get myself back up to speed.....don't have to take lessons to play the basics thank goodness.

"I Stand All Amazed" is sung frequently in my ward.

Edited by ERayR
1
mbh26 Proficient

mbh26

Posted
Posted

Do you believe that blood and race play any factors in the gospel? I've just been wondering why God chose to have so many different races, and what the purpose of it is. This is in no way meant to be a racist topic.

Perhaps we have different heavenly mothers and the different races are the result of that.

Cobalt-70 Grand Master

Cobalt-70

Posted
Posted (edited)

Race does play a big part. God has always worked with a chosen lineage throughout the beginning of time. The gospel and priesthood came through Shem. Shem was the prince of peace. The Hebrews and Israel came from this lineage. The Gentiles came through Japeth and the blacks came through Ham. The Gentiles never had the gospel or the holy ghost until Jesus died and sent his apostles out to preach and covert in 34 AD. Israel will close the earth and build the New Jerusalem so race and lineage is very important in Gods plan.

The Israelites did not actually descend from one guy named Shem who was the son of Noah. That's just the myth they created to explain the origin of "Semitic" people. The Semetic people are genetically very diverse, and come from a wide variety of genetic sources, from Africa to India and elsewhere. Your views on the origin of nations and races are about 100 years out of date.

Sorry, but there is no "Semitic race." Nor is there a "black race." Members of the various populations in Africa (such as Pygmies or the Koi-San) are on average more different from each other, genetically, than a typical white European is from a typical Asian or even a Native American.

Edited by Cobalt-70
Cobalt-70 Grand Master

Cobalt-70

Posted
Posted

Nope! You have my position wrong again. Here, let me Tannerize my next statements so you can better understand. I also explained to you that words translated "white" literally in BOTH EGYPTIAN AND HEBREW, also mean "pure" in many texts where they are found. I never said anything about Joseph Smith seeing Hebrew in the seer stone. I NEVER SAID OR WROTE that he translated Hebrew into English. THAT IS YOUR MISINTERPRETATION of my words. Also, I mentioned repeatedly that the Book of Mormon WAS WRITTEN IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE EGYPTIANS WITH THE LEARNING OF THE JEWS. This means that there would be Hebrew usages and meanings incorporated into Egyptian text. Yet, somehow you keep missing that and keep missing the point.

So what language do you think he saw in the stone? English, Reformed Egyptian, or Hebrew? If English, then how did Smith know what the Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian originals were, so that years later he would be able to improve upon the stone's original translation? If Hebrew, then why would the stone show Smith a language that Smith could only recognize as gibberish?

Your hypothesis does not work unless Smith had some knowledge in 1829 of how Hebrew usage was incorporated into the "Reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphs. But how is that possible, if he never started learning Hebrew until 1835?

volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

In the interest of spending our time on what is virtuous, lovely, and of good report, I vote that we derail the original topic of this thread into an exhibit of our favorite hymns!

1
MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted

The Israelites did not actually descend from one guy named Shem who was the son of Noah. That's just the myth they created to explain the origin of "Semitic" people. The Semetic people are genetically very diverse, and come from a wide variety of genetic sources, from Africa to India and elsewhere. Your views on the origin of nations and races are about 100 years out of date.

Sorry, but there is no "Semitic race." Nor is there a "black race." Members of the various populations in Africa (such as Pygmies or the Koi-San) are on average more different from each other, genetically, than a typical white European is from a typical Asian or even a Native American.

Intermarriage. Does wonders for the gene pool.

Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted

In my first ward on my mission, we sang this in sacrament meeting on Christmas Day. Most of the congregation had grown up Catholic, so everyone knew it. So beautiful!

Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted (edited)

At our Christmas party in the same ward, we had a nativity re-enactment in the hall. In the middle, with the only light in the space a spotlight on the young couple in the 'stable' (the wife being very pregnant), a sister stood up in the dark and sang this a capella. She'd been in a convent for 20 years before joining the Church*, and she sang with the voice of an entire angel choir. I had no idea this song had so many verses, but that night I wished that it would never end.

[media=]

*The missionaries had given her a copy of the Book of Mormon on the street one day, and she had taken it back to the convent to read it. When she discussed it later with a priest, he encouraged her to do whatever her heart was telling her. She was as beautiful as her voice.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
2
volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

I think that, considering the thread, this song is very apt.

Paul Robeson singing about a Hasidic rebbe demanding mercy from God for the downtrodden and oppressed.

MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted

So what language do you think he saw in the stone? English, Reformed Egyptian, or Hebrew? If English, then how did Smith know what the Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian originals were, so that years later he would be able to improve upon the stone's original translation? If Hebrew, then why would the stone show Smith a language that Smith could only recognize as gibberish?

Your hypothesis does not work unless Smith had some knowledge in 1829 of how Hebrew usage was incorporated into the "Reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphs. But how is that possible, if he never started learning Hebrew until 1835?

No one really knows what Joseph Smith saw in the stone and in the Interpreters, save God and Joseph Smith. If I had to hazard a guess, it would have been along the same lines of what is on the Anthon Transcript, which would have been a form of reformed Egyptian. However, if a language incorporates elements of Hebrew into it, there will be considerable influence on grammar, usage, and even borrowed vocabulary. That is the way things work in situations like the Book of Mormon. TheTel-Arad ostraca show examples of this, and they date to around and before the same time period as Lehi.

Now, there are examples of varying kinds of reformed Egyptian in the Middle East. Hieratic, Demotic, and Coptic are among the examples known from the Old World. And, yes, Coptic is a kind of reformed Egyptian. It is Egyptian language written with a blend of Greek and Demotic characters with the incorporation of Greek vocabulary.

You also are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. You cannot consider for a moment the simplest explanation that as he was going through the Book of Mormon it would have 'clicked' for him that he had read something in his Hebrew lexicon about that and noticed from the lexicon that both meaning were possible? In this scenario it is the simple matter of realizing that Hebrew would have mean literally white but the connotative meaning would be "pure."

This is assuming that the Original Manuscript did not read "pure" here. I know Skousen claims that it unlikely but no one has seen that portion of the Original Manuscript to confirm or deny that such was the case. Again, in both Egyptian and Hebrew, words meaning literally "white" mean "pure" in some contexts. Joseph Smith would not have had to know this and in making the assumption later he would have been correct. Again, check the lexicons if you don't believe it.

But, you definitely are are making this a lot more complicated than is necessary. It is rather simple. Sometimes, I suppose it is the simple things that we miss...

Cobalt-70 Grand Master

Cobalt-70

Posted
Posted (edited)

Intermarriage. Does wonders for the gene pool.

If they intermarried, then the idea of "lineage" goes out the window, since everyone is a descendant from Ham, Shem, and Japheth.

But genetically, this is impossible anyway, given that the present genetic diversity of the human species could not, mathematically, have come from only eight people (actually, just five, because the three sons' genes all came from Noah and his wife). Not only that, but if the Flood story were true, there would exist only one human Y chromosome (that of Noah).

Edited by Cobalt-70
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...