Races

[MormonMason]

Here's the full paragraph:

Yep, that's the quote. Unfortunately, it looks like my memory slipped bit and your sig line was at the beginning rather than the end. Chalk it up to aging.

[Cobalt-70]

How about the following, for starters.

• 1 Nephi 11:13
  13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
  

As I'm sure you know, the virgin Mary was not a Lamanite, and her race never (presumably) changed as a result in her becoming Mormon.

• 1 Nephi 13:15
  15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
  

By the Book of Mormon's racist logic, the gentiles were never "dark and loathsome" like the Lamanites were, and therefore becoming Mormon was not responsible for their white pigmentation. Likewise, the skin of the Nephites never turned dark as the result of any curse. That only happened to the Lamanites.

• 2 Nephi 5:21
  21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
  

Right. But that does not say that the Lamanites will turn back into Caucasians if they become Mormon. That was the part that Smith seems to have changed his mind on.

• 3 Nephi 2:15
  15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;
  

Yes, you're right. But Smith couldn't hardly change this one, because he had originally framed it as a historical "fact," whereas 2 Ne. 30:6 was forward looking prophecy to the latter days. Smith had apparently discovered by May 1840 that Indians don't change race when they become Mormon in the latter days, but that's not to say it couldn't have happened among the mythical Lamanites of the 1st century AD. Or maybe Smith just forgot about that one when he was reviewing the book for the 1840 publication. I think when most people try to remember where the racist parts of the Book of Mormon are, they think 2 Nephi, not 3 Nephi.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[MormonMason]

Point of observation: The Book of Mormon does not consider or discuss people "becoming Mormon." Mormon is a term that was given to Latter-day Saints by outsiders and is not discussed or known by the writers of the Book of Mormon.

As to his figuring out "by May 1840 that Indians don't change race" have you a source to give even the slightest support to your clairvoyant fantasy?

Have you read the 1831 revelation of Joseph Smith concerning intermarriage with Lamanite women and the purpose therefore? Perhaps you should because it at least provides some background concerning Joseph Smith's early ideas concerning skin color and any changes thereto.

Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

Following is a relevant quote from the revelation I mentioned above, the revelation dated July 7, 1831. It is only extant in two copies written at a later time.

4 Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.

(Letter of William W. Phelps to Brigham Young, 12 August 1861, CHL)

The original is lost but Ezra Booth confirmed its existence by mentioning a few months later in a newspaper that a revelation was given that year which discussed intermarriage "with the Natives." See Ezra Booth to Reverend Ira Eddy, 6 December 1831, Ohio Star 2 (8 December 1831): 1. See also page 195 of Arrington's The Mormon Experience.

Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason

[Cobalt-70]

Point of observation: The Book of Mormon does not consider or discuss people "becoming Mormon." Mormon is a term that was given to Latter-day Saints by outsiders and is not discussed or known by the writers of the Book of Mormon.

Mormonism refers to the Mormon religion, which was indeed practiced by the mythical Nephites and some of the Lamanites. It is about the same as saying that Jesus was a Christian, even though Jesus died as a Jew well before Paul and others defined Christianity as a new faith. Or it's like saying that

As to his figuring out "by May 1840 that Indians don't change race" have you a source to give even the slightest support to your clairvoyant fantasy?

This article tells the story of how Smith met his first Indian in Nauvoo. I don't think we need proof that this Oneida man and his family didn't turn into Caucasians after their conversion. I'm sure if they did, we'd know about it.

Have you read the 1831 revelation of Joseph Smith concerning intermarriage with Lamonaite women and the purpose therefore? Perhaps you should because it at least provides some background concerning Joseph Smith's early ideas concerning skin color and any changes thereto.

Of course.1831 was not long after Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. It is possible that Smith's views changed during and soon after the Book of Mormon was written. But it would have been a progression like the following:

1. May 1829: Smith believed that Native Americans could turn into white people immediately after becoming righteous. (3 Ne. 2:14-15)
   
2. June 1829: Smith believed that it took a few generations for Native Americans to turn into white people. (2 Ne. 30:6)
   
3. 17 July 1831: Smith believed that Mormon elders could hasten the dissipation of Native American "darkness" and "loathsomeness" by taking Native American women as polygamous wives.
   
4. May 1840: Smith meets his first real live Indian.
   
5. Later 1840: Smith amends the Book of Mormon to intentionally, but subtly, change this crazy doctrine in 2 Ne. 30:6, but for some reason he does not change 3 Ne. 2:14-15.
   

Edited October 1, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[MormonMason]

Cobalt-70,

I need something less tenuous than your source for this. The sources I checked have nothing to say about Joseph Smith meeting him when he came to Nauvoo. The sources say that he came to Nauvoo and was baptized, and then ordained by the Patriarch and blessed. I saw nothing about Joseph Smith participating. Got any that actually do actually say what you claim?

Edited October 1, 2012 by MormonMason

[Cobalt-70]

I need something less tenuous than your source for this. The sources I checked have nothing to say about Joseph Smith meeting him when he came to Nauvoo. The sources say that he came to Nauvoo and was baptized, and then ordained by the Patriarch and blessed. I saw nothing about Joseph Smith participating. Got any that actually do actually say what you claim?

You think Joseph Smith would have ignored a real live Indian convert coming to Nauvoo? I think it is inconceivable that Smith would not have met him and his family, and basked in the glory of a Book of Mormon prophecy fulfilled. I think the only reason we don't have record of Smith meeting him was that he wasn't having his journal regularly kept during that time period.

[ERayR]

You think Joseph Smith would have ignored a real live Indian convert coming to Nauvoo? I think it is inconceivable that Smith would not have met him and his family, and basked in the glory of a Book of Mormon prophecy fulfilled. I think the only reason we don't have record of Smith meeting him was that he wasn't having his journal regularly kept during that time period.

This is an illustration of a problem I perceive with your posts. You attribute your own thoughts as if they were Joseph's. You think? Well maybe but then maybe not. My perception is that Joseph's thoughts were far different than what you have expressed in many areas.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ERayR

[volgadon]

This article tells the story of how Smith met his first Indian in Nauvoo. I don't think we need proof that this Oneida man and his family didn't turn into Caucasians after their conversion. I'm sure if they did, we'd know about it.

Ha, I knew it was this one. You seem to have neglected this phrase, "Perhaps for the first time since his 1831 trip to Missouri, Smith had

the chance to meet Native Americans first hand."

[brightpath]

In the article JS and the early leaders understood who the Natives really were, the remnant of Jacob(Lamanites). This is why when the BofM was translated the first missionaries of the church were sent to them(Natives). JS understood that the BofM was the history of their forefathers and that it was written to them specifically.