Races

[Nathair/|\]

That's the second funniest thing I've seen all day. (I attended the debates for Montana's congressional candidates today.)

[MormonMason]

This theory does not explain 2 Nephi 5:21, which refers to a "skin of blackness." Joseph Smith never changed that one. I don't think it is very credible to argue that Joseph Smith didn't believe that the Native Americans were literally cursed with dark skins. That idea, as applied especially to blacks, was "in the air" during his era. I just think Smith was simply wrong, and that the LDS Church should straightforwardly and unapologetically change these parts of the Book of Mormon.

I am not arguing that Joseph Smith didn't believe that the Book of Mormon taught that the Lamanites were cursed initially with a dark skin. Nowhere would I suggest that. I only stated that either wording "white" or "pure" for 2 Nephi 30:6 is correct, from the standpont of the ancient languages. You made much more of it than I stated. Please try not to do that anymore. It is annoying.

What theory? I stated facts. Joseph Smith is responsible for the "white" to "pure" change there. (See page 115 of the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon, corrected by Joseph Smith from the original manuscript). Obviously, Joseph Smith did not consider that passage to refer to skin color.

In both Hebrew and Egyptian, various words that literally mean "white" are used in texts to mean "pure." That is also an established fact. See the Bible translations and look up the Hebrew if you don't believe it. Since the Book of Mormon claims to have been written in the language of the Egyptians with the learning of the Jews, something like this actually fits well with that specific passage and not the others.

And, I think the Book of Mormon should be left as is, minus restoration of obvious missing text.

Edited September 26, 2012 by MormonMason

[volgadon]

For the OP, this is a song by my favourite Israeli artist, Ehud Banai.

Make of the song what you will, but the lyrics are very pertinent.

[Nathair/|\]

I can't find the clip, but I've always liked the scene in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves where a kid asks the Moor, "Why did God paint you?" and he responds "Because Allah loves wondrous variety."

[Hamba Tuhan]

Saying someone is cursed for having dark skin is a racist comment by today's standards.

Where in the Book of Mormon does is say that someone is cursed for having dark skin?

If not, then why did the church feel the need to make the changes?

Are you referring to the Church's restoration of Joseph Smith's alteration from 'white' to 'pure', as mentioned by Nathair above? If not, please clarify. If so, what exactly bothers you about Joseph's corrections?

Finally, when you said above that 'it's clearly racial in the BoM' and suggested that 'the church is downplaying it', what precisely is the it you here refer to? I'm still lost, I'm afraid.

[spartacus]

Did God discriminate based on race/skin colour...Yes. Why?

Does God discrimante based on genetics (gender) ...Yes. Why? There is no Official Church response. Individual members speculate but their speculation is gross disrespect towards the children of God.

Which would mean that LDS prophets and apostles a plenty have either grossly disrespected the children of God (that would be strange) or told the truth. Seems a difficult line to tread.

As for the OP, I often quote from that Great Classic "Robin Hood Prince of Thieves" where Morgan Freeman's character (a Moor - or African American (Muslim)) is asked by a little anglo-saxon boy, "Did God paint you?" (or something like that) and, after Morgan's character says yes and the boy asks why, the Moor replies, "Because Allah loves wondrous variety." I know this is not (in the context of LDS religion) what the OP was asking for, but like I said, I like to quote this!

Edited September 26, 2012 by spartacus

[spartacus]

34 ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no arespecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh drighteousness, is accepted with him.

Galatians 3:27 & 28

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

(hmm... funny. The board's spellcheck doesn't recognize "Colossians", "Galatians" yes, but not "Colossians". Hm.)

[spartacus]

I can't find the clip, but I've always liked the scene in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves where a kid asks the Moor, "Why did God paint you?" and he responds "Because Allah loves wondrous variety."

I posted in reply to a much earlier post and before I read your post.

I salute you and greet you as a brother in quotes (or at least this quote).

[Tacenda]

Where in the Book of Mormon does is say that someone is cursed for having dark skin?

Are you referring to the Church's restoration of Joseph Smith's alteration from 'white' to 'pure', as mentioned by Nathair above? If not, please clarify. If so, what exactly bothers you about Joseph's corrections?

Finally, when you said above that 'it's clearly racial in the BoM' and suggested that 'the church is downplaying it', what precisely is the it you here refer to? I'm still lost, I'm afraid.

It's there if you google it. Like I said before, my computer crashed so I'm using my phone. There are whole sentences taken out and replaced and the cursed for dark skin may have been one.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

I bought a copy of the 1830 version of the BoM last year, but before I read it through it's vanished and I cannot locate it. But if anyone would like to order one it is available. I loved it because it was in chapter form and reads like a novel.

[KevinG]

It's there if you google it. Like I said before, my computer crashed so I'm using my phone. There are whole sentences taken out and replaced and the cursed for dark skin may have been one.

Perhaps you should get your computer fixed or go to a library before making bald assertions.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Textual_changes

[MormonMason]

It's there if you google it. Like I said before, my computer crashed so I'm using my phone. There are whole sentences taken out and replaced and the cursed for dark skin may have been one.

Google it? I have several different editions of the Book of Mormon, including the 1830, 1837, 1840, 1879, 1921, 1981 editions. I cannot find a reference like that in any of them. Nowhere does it say that anyone is cursed because of the color of their skin--in any edition.

It is time that you looked to the scriptures and not Google-jockeying for information that clearly is incorrect in nature.

Edited September 26, 2012 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

I bought a copy of the 1830 version of the BoM last year, but before I read it through it's vanished and I cannot locate it. But if anyone would like to order one it is available. I loved it because it was in chapter form and reads like a novel.

You can read it online so you do not any longer need a printed copy to back your bald assertions. Let me know and I will be glad to post some links.

[KevinG]

It is time that you looked to the scriptures and not Google-jockeying for information that clearly is incorrect in nature.

Don't hold your breath. Tacenda has spent the vast majority of her time here sharing googled bits of information and questions from anti-Mormon sites. It starts to strain credulity of her questioning member cover story and has me suspecting she's gone over to advocacy for critics.

Edited September 26, 2012 by KevinG

[Nathair/|\]

I loved it because it was in chapter form and reads like a novel.

I highly recommend Grant Hardy's Readers Edition of the Book of Mormon then. It also has many of the poems laid out and some nice appendixes.

[MormonMason]

Don't hold your breath. Tacenda has spent the vast majority of her time here sharing googled bits of information and questions from anti-Mormon sites. It starts to strain credulity of her questioning member cover story and has me suspecting she's gone over to advocacy for critics.

Or, whether she isn't a wolf wearing alternative dress. I have been wondering myself. But, for the sake of those who are willing to listen, it would seem that it is worth responding. I already note that she does not listen to a word I write. She may even have me on ignore. Who knows? But, whether she does or does not, or is or is not, those other readers who have the same questions and are sincere in their desire to know will see this information and be able to make use of it.

Edited September 26, 2012 by MormonMason

[Nathair/|\]

I posted in reply to a much earlier post and before I read your post.

I salute you and greet you as a brother in quotes (or at least this quote).

You remembered the details of the scene better than I did, though.

[KevinG]

To be completely fair she may just be obsessed with these anti-Mormon sites and unbalanced in how much time she spends there vs. studying scriptures and praying with her family. You are correct it benefits others to answer the questions put forth even if the questioner isn't listening to the answers.

[DavidB]

Joanna brooks

One changed chapter heading appears in 2 Nephi, chapter 5:

*Old version: “Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness, and become a scourge to the Nephites.”

*New online version: “Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites.”

A second changed chapter heading appears in Mormon, chapter 5:

*Old version: “The Lamanites shall be a dark, filthy, and loathsome people. . .”

*New online version: “Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them . . .”

[Nathair/|\]

We are all unique, and it is our differences that make a community what it is. No tree in a forest is more ‘right’ or ;wrong’ than any other; they do not have a hierarchy, or does any one tree exist in complete separation from any other. All trees experience the entire forest (and beyond that, the Earth) from their own perspective. The trees of the forest live as a holarchy, an interrelated, bio-ecosystem that exists for the most part in balance and harmony.

http://www.celtic-reiki.com/philosophy.html

[MormonMason]

Joanna brooks

One changed chapter heading appears in 2 Nephi, chapter 5:

*Old version: “Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness, and become a scourge to the Nephites.”

*New online version: “Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites.”

A second changed chapter heading appears in Mormon, chapter 5:

*Old version: “The Lamanites shall be a dark, filthy, and loathsome people. . .”

*New online version: “Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them . . .”

These chapter headings are not in previous editions of the Book of Mormon. The chapter headings are not part of the sacred text and can be used and discarded at will. The new headings shift focus to the spiritual aspects of the text rather than to the physical.

A new edition of the Book of Mormon is coming. I, for one, am looking forward to it. We finally will get the text that was intended by the Lord and by Joseph Smith for us to read. I am not sure on the time line, however. I have already begun marking mine up in preparation for some of the changes that are coming.

But, then again, none of these chapter headings say that the Lamanites were cursed because of or for the color of their skins, either.

[DavidB]

Yes she had it backwards.

[cinepro]

FWIW, Armand Mauss has an entire book detaililng the history of LDS attitudes and teachings about "race":

All Abraham's Children

"All Abraham's Children" is Armand L. Mauss's long-awaited magnum opus on the evolution of traditional Mormon beliefs and practices concerning minorities. He examines how members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have defined themselves and others in terms of racial lineages. Mauss describes a complex process of the broadening of these self-defined lineages during the last part of the twentieth century as the modern Mormon church continued its world-wide expansion through massive missionary work. Mauss contends that Mormon constructions of racial identity have not necessarily affected actual behavior negatively and that in some cases Mormons have shown greater tolerance than other groups in the American mainstream. Employing a broad intellectual historical analysis to identify shifts in LDS behavior over time, "All Abraham's Children" is an important commentary on current models of Mormon historiography.

[Tacenda]

Or, whether she isn't a wolf wearing alternative dress. I have been wondering myself. But, for the sake of those who are willing to listen, it would seem that it is worth responding. I already note that she does not listen to a word I write. She may even have me on ignore. Who knows? But, whether she does or does not, or is or is not, those other readers who have the same questions and are sincere in their desire to know will see this information and be able to make use of it.

MM I don't have you on ignore. I'm a middlewayer. I love my Mormon heritage and can't let go. I'd like our church to get back to the basics. Become more reliant on the Lord. The laws in the church make it less Grace oriented. We should not work for it. Note in James 2:10. If you break even one law it's a done deal. That's why Grace is everything, no matter what we do. That's where faith comes in and turning our lives over to Him. The 3rd article of faith is "We believe mankind will saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel". Where is Grace mentioned?

[Tacenda]

You can read it online so you do not any longer need a printed copy to back your bald assertions. Let me know and I will be glad to post some links.

I'd much rather be able to find my copy.