Races

[RobertAC]

CFR for the highlighted portion please.

I am not sure what CFR stands for, but if this is a request for a citation, here is what Wikipedia says on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism

[KevinG]

Note the primary group on this thread bringing up outdated and debunked notions of why the priesthood was segregated are critics of the church. Could it be that they aren't happy with the LDS church maturing and gaining more wisdom and knowledge? I prefer celebrate our growth as individuals and as a people.

Besides this isn't a priesthood and blacks thread. Please don't derail.

Doctrinally we have this, which I think is a good final word on the subject from me.

Axcts 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

34 ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no arespecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh drighteousness, is accepted with him.

[Verum]

Race baiting race baiting!!

[Ares]

Race baiting race baiting!!

Indeed. Any more of it and there will be bannings.

[Damien the Leper]

Do you believe that blood and race play any factors in the gospel? I've just been wondering why God chose to have so many different races, and what the purpose of it is. This is in no way meant to be a racist topic.

Somewhat. I remember when I had a discussion with some missionaries and the senior companion stated that eventually everyone would be white in the next life. This happened about 7 years ago and I was shocked then. I think about it now and I think about how silly the notion is.

As for the blacks and "Cain" or "Ham" and the Native Americans "Lamanites"...silly racism. There is no plausible, rational, reasonable, or appropriate justification for such. All it shows is the historical extent of racism.

It's not "revelatory" in any way.

Overall, the subject is silly and shows the ignorance of people.

ETA: IOW, the Aryan belief in a pure "white and delightsome" race is just stupid.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Valentinus

[KevinG]

Somewhat. I remember when I had a discussion with some missionaries and the senior companion stated that eventually everyone would be white in the next life. This happened about 7 years ago and I was shocked then. I think about it now and I think about how silly the notion is.

As for the blacks and "Cain" or "Ham" and the Native Americans "Lamanites"...silly racism. There is no plausible, rational, reasonable, or appropriate justification for such. All it shows is the historical extent of racism.

It's not "revelatory" in any way.

Overall, the subject is silly and shows the ignorance of people.

In my personal experience with a guardian angel I can attest that his skin was a black as night and he still cast a light brighter than the noonday sun,

...and that is all I will say lest I cast more pearls to be trampled.

[thesometimesaint]

The only truly white people are albinos, and they come from every "race".

[Damien the Leper]

In my personal experience with a guardian angel I can attest that his skin was a black as night and he still cast a light brighter than the noonday sun,

...and that is all I will say lest I cast more pearls to be trampled.

Oh how I like your posts, Kevin.

[MormonMason]

In the past, church leaders (Young, McConkie, Kimball, etc.) have linked race to righteousness, teaching that those who are black are descended from people who were either smitten by god with a dark mark upon their skin for their unrighteousness, were fence sitters in the pre-existence, etc.

There is a reason that blacks were banned from receiving the priesthood until 1978.

While the policy was general, there were exceptions and some Blacks were ordained even while the general policy held full sway.

As to whether or not the idea was a holdover from the apostasy or not, however (per KevinG), the idea that the Blacks were descendents of Cain also was derived from the Book of Moses (which often is ignored in discussions such as these). What does the Book of Moses say about the descendents of Cain?

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

(Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:22)

It is easy to see why early Latter-day Saints made the connection when including the Book of Abraham in the mix. The assumption that Egyptus must have been of the seed of Cain was not a difficult one to make for them. Well, at least not in my view of things.

[zerinus]

Do you believe that blood and race play any factors in the gospel? I've just been wondering why God chose to have so many different races, and what the purpose of it is. This is in no way meant to be a racist topic.

There is nothing strange about the concept of race. It is a natural consequence of the separation of mankind into ethnic groups. In chapter 10 of the the book of Genesis, after giving a long list of the descendants of Noah, in the last verse it adds:

Genesis 10:

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

That is the explanation for race. Races exist because they originate from one or a small group of ethnically distinct peoples, as a result of which they also develop recognizable and distinct characteristic features, such as skin colour, and other racial characteristics. I think the question you are asking is what it is that certain races are particularly advantaged or favoured by God (as a race), while others are disadvantaged. For example, God pronounced special blessings and privileges on the seed of Abraham, thought Isaac and Jacob; while other races were particulate disadvantaged or even annihilated. And apparently all of this were done because of the righteousness (or unrighteousness) of their progenitors. The seed of Abraham were particularly blessed because of the faithfulness of Abraham; while the Lamanites were particularly disadvantaged because of the wickedness of Laman and Lemuel. That is a question to which we may not be able to find a clear answer to in this life. Why does God bless or curse people through their descendants? If I do something right (or wrong), why should my kids be blessed (or cursed) as a consequence? We don't know why God works that way; but evidently He does.

Edited September 25, 2012 by zerinus

[ERayR]

Do you believe that blood and race play any factors in the gospel? I've just been wondering why God chose to have so many different races, and what the purpose of it is. This is in no way meant to be a racist topic.

Possible but I have no idea why.

[KevinG]

There is nothing strange about the concept of race. It is a natural consequence of the separation of mankind into ethnic groups. In chapter 10 of the the book of Genesis, after giving a long list of the descendants of Noah, in the last verse it adds:

Genesis 10:

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

That is the explanation for race. Races exist because they originate from one or a small group of ethnically distinct peoples, as a result of which they also develop recognizable and distinct characteristic features, such as colour of skin, and other racial characteristics. I think the question you are asking is what it is that certain races are particularly advantaged or favoured by God (as a race), while others are disadvantaged. For example, God pronounced special blessings and privileges on the seed of Abraham, thought Isaac and Jacob; while other races were particulate disadvantaged or even annihilated. And apparently all of this were done because of the righteousness (or unrighteousness) of their progenitors. The seed of Abraham were particularly blessed because of the faithfulness of Abraham; while the Lamanites were particularly disadvantaged because of the wickedness of Laman and Lemuel. That is a question to which we may not be able to find a clear answer to in this life. Why does God bless or curse people through their descendants? If I do something right (or wrong), why should my kids be blessed (or cursed) as a consequence? We don't know why God works that way; but evidently He does.

If I read this right then it is the righteousness of a race (or tribe or lineage), not the race of the righteous upon which God bases His favor.

[cinepro]

I am not sure what CFR stands for, but if this is a request for a citation, here is what Wikipedia says on the subject: http://en.wikipedia....e_and_Mormonism

Which part specfically?

[zerinus]

If I read this right then it is the righteousness of a race (or tribe or lineage), not the race of the righteous upon which God bases His favor.

It says what it says!

[Cobalt-70]

There is nothing strange about the concept of race. It is a natural consequence of the separation of mankind into ethnic groups. In chapter 10 of the the book of Genesis, after giving a long list of the descendants of Noah, in the last verse it adds:

Genesis 10:

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

That is the explanation for race. Races exist because they originate from one or a small group of ethnically distinct peoples, as a result of which they also develop recognizable and distinct characteristic features, such as skin colour, and other racial characteristics. I think the question you are asking is what it is that certain races are particularly advantaged or favoured by God (as a race), while others are disadvantaged. For example, God pronounced special blessings and privileges on the seed of Abraham, thought Isaac and Jacob; while other races were particulate disadvantaged or even annihilated. And apparently all of this were done because of the righteousness (or unrighteousness) of their progenitors. The seed of Abraham were particularly blessed because of the faithfulness of Abraham; while the Lamanites were particularly disadvantaged because of the wickedness of Laman and Lemuel. That is a question to which we may not be able to find a clear answer to in this life. Why does God bless or curse people through their descendants? If I do something right (or wrong), why should my kids be blessed (or cursed) as a consequence? We don't know why God works that way; but evidently He does.

I strongly disagree. You are saying that race does play a role within Mormon theology, and that some races are blessed or cursed by God (although you do not know why). I think that view began dying in 1978, and finally gave up the ghost about 10 years ago. It has no place within the contemporary LDS Church.

[Cobalt-70]

Do you believe that blood and race play any factors in the gospel? I've just been wondering why God chose to have so many different races, and what the purpose of it is. This is in no way meant to be a racist topic.

Race is, for the most part, imaginary. Race is not, like the bible claims, a sub-species level of taxonomy or a "lineage." Race is just a statistical correlation between various groups of genetic traits, each individual genetic trait of which is, individually, almost always widespread across the species.

Although and racist theology occasionally still makes its rounds among Mormons, I think it has now passed the tipping point where racist theology is not just offensive, but also heterodox. Black people are not descendants of Ham or Cain, and they are not, and never have been, cursed. Native Americans are not descendants of Laman and Lemuel, and never were, and never have been, cursed. People will not be turned Caucasian in the Celestial Kingdom. Becoming a Mormon does not lighten your skin. All these racist ideas no longer have any place within Mormonism.

[Tacenda]

Race is, for the most part, imaginary. Race is not, like the bible claims, a sub-species level of taxonomy or a "lineage." Race is just a statistical correlation between various groups of genetic traits, each individual genetic trait of which is, individually, almost always widespread across the species.

Although and racist theology occasionally still makes its rounds among Mormons, I think it has now passed the tipping point where racist theology is not just offensive, but also heterodox. Black people are not descendants of Ham or Cain, and they are not, and never have been, cursed. Native Americans are not descendants of Laman and Lemuel, and never were, and never have been, cursed. People will not be turned Caucasian in the Celestial Kingdom. Becoming a Mormon does not lighten your skin. All these racist ideas no longer have any place within Mormonism.

I agree. But it's clearly racial in the BoM.

[Ahab]

Jesus loves me, this I know.

For the Bible tells me so,

Little ones to him belong,

We are weak but he is strong.

Yes, Jesus loves me,

Yes, Jesus loves me,

Yes, Jesus loves me,

The Bible tells me so,

... oh, shoot, that's not the right song. Okay, here we go now.

... Red and yellow black and white,

We are precious in his sight,

Jesus loves the little children of the world!!!

Btw, I've always wondered why the "red" skins got first billing.

[KevinG]

Race is, for the most part, imaginary. Race is not, like the bible claims, a sub-species level of taxonomy or a "lineage." Race is just a statistical correlation between various groups of genetic traits, each individual genetic trait of which is, individually, almost always widespread across the species.

Although and racist theology occasionally still makes its rounds among Mormons, I think it has now passed the tipping point where racist theology is not just offensive, but also heterodox. Black people are not descendants of Ham or Cain, and they are not, and never have been, cursed. Native Americans are not descendants of Laman and Lemuel, and never were, and never have been, cursed. People will not be turned Caucasian in the Celestial Kingdom. Becoming a Mormon does not lighten your skin. All these racist ideas no longer have any place within Mormonism.

I agree that "race" is an artificial notion. Even in the Book of Mormon we see people of all colors and backgrounds adopting and swapping group identities based on beliefs not color or lineage.

[ERayR]

I agree. But it's clearly racial in the BoM.

How So?

[MormonMason]

It says what it says!

Until next week, when it will say something else...

Quote the part you are referencing and then put a date of accession on the citation.

[Tacenda]

How So?

Before the changes anyway.

[MormonMason]

I agree. But it's clearly racial in the BoM.

Umm...no. the Nephites and Lamanites were regarded as the same race. In fact, you will never see the word race in the Book of Mormon.

[MormonMason]

Before the changes anyway.

Are you referring to 2 Nephi 30:6? The change is insignificant. In both Hebrew and Egyptian, words for "white" and "pure" are the same words. Either translation is correct; "white" literally and "pure" not literally. The former is the denotation and the latter the connotation.

The Bible has a perfectly good example of this phenomenon. See Daniel 11:35 and 12:10 in the King James Bible. Then, see another translation such as the NIV in the same passages. Both translations, however, are correct.

Like these passages in Daniel, that Book of Mormon passage also does not have a so-called racial component.

By the way, that change was incorporated because it was a return to a reading that Joseph Smith said should be put there, and which he did put into the edition of the Book of Mormon that he had worked on editing. But, because later editions were based off of a European edition that missed the change, we lost that change until 1981, when it was given back to us.

Edited September 26, 2012 by MormonMason

[ERayR]

Before the changes anyway.

I don't think so. Some claimed that but they did not seem to understand the scripture or were intentionally misreading it.