Sacrament Meetings, How Did They Get To Be The Way They Are?

[Truth]

I am curious about sacrament meetings. Have they always been with members being called to speak? Were there ever minister types like in most churches?

Also, in my ward at least, I have been seeing sacrament talks where it is just all women or women being the final speaker. I thought that the priesthood was supposed to be in there, particularly as the last speaker. Is that lore or is there something in the handbook of instructions?

[Robert F. Smith]

I am curious about sacrament meetings. Have they always been with members being called to speak? Were there ever minister types like in most churches?

Also, in my ward at least, I have been seeing sacrament talks where it is just all women or women being the final speaker. I thought that the priesthood was supposed to be in there, particularly as the last speaker. Is that lore or is there something in the handbook of instructions?

It is not required, but the female in a married couple usually speaks first and her husband last. Perhaps your ward is simply not typical, has a more evenhanded bishop, or perhaps there are many more women in your ward. Throughout the LDS Church women attend in greater numbers, are more faithful to the Gospel, and do their visiting teaching more faithfully than the men. In the mission field, women are far more dependable and do not cause as much trouble as the men. George Romney used to say that, if he got into heaven, it would be by hanging onto his wife's skirt.

Thank God that we have women around to keep us focussed on what really matters.

[Garden Girl]

I became active in Church as a 12 year old when my step-dad converted and we attended as a family. Sacrament meeting then (1952) was as it is now... then at age 20 until 55 I was inactive (married non-LDS and slipped into inactivity as so often happens). When I reactivated in 1995 at age 55 and started attending, Sacrament meeting was still the same... now I'm 71 and during these past years I've been a speaker in Sac Mtg... sometimes with a brother, other times will another sister. Didn't seem to be any particular reason for bro/sis speaker.

GG

[Freedom]

In regards to men and women, the one policy that is often ignored is that you should not call a husband and wife to give opening and closing prayer, and similarly you are not to call husbands and wives to give talks in the same meeting. It sends the wrong message to those that are single.

[Buckeye]

Throughout the LDS Church women attend in greater numbers, are more faithful to the Gospel, and do their visiting teaching more faithfully than the men. In the mission field, women are far more dependable and do not cause as much trouble as the men. Romney used to say that, if he got into heaven, it would be by hanging onto his wife's skirt.

My experience is different. I strongly support women. I think they are equal to men. But I do not think they are inherently more faithful or righteous than men. Most of the differences in observance is due to systematic differences rather than obedience. For example, historically, women's visiting teaching could be "counted" for just letters or phone calls, whereas mens' hometeaching could only count for an in-home visit. Under that discrimination, it is not surprising that the sisters reported better numbers. In my Stake, we have recently begun counting letters and phone calls for hometeaching. The numbers reported by the brethren have gone up substantially and in many cases now surpass the sister's.

I understand the sentiment of George Romney, but it still feels wrong to me. I can't imagine getting into heaven by hanging onto my wife's skirt any more than I could imagine her admission by hanging onto me. We both get in walking side-by-side, hand-in-hand, together. Neither one superior to the other.

In regards to men and women, the one policy that is often ignored is that you should not call a husband and wife to give opening and closing prayer, and similarly you are not to call husbands and wives to give talks in the same meeting. It sends the wrong message to those that are single.

Actually, the policy is that couples should not exclusively be asked to give prayers or talks. There's nothing wrong with having couples speak or pray in the same sacrament meeting periodically, so long as single member are equally included.

[Garden Girl]

In regards to men and women, the one policy that is often ignored is that you should not call a husband and wife to give opening and closing prayer, and similarly you are not to call husbands and wives to give talks in the same meeting. It sends the wrong message to those that are single.

Hmmm.... never thought about it as in my ward we do it all the time... as well as random individuals.

GG

[Freedom]

Here is what is said about prayers in the handbook, I could not find the details on selecting speakers. It talks about avoiding the pattern rather than not doing it at all. My personal policy is, to avoid the pattern avoid it if at all possible. Of course, there are some people who will not speak or pray unless their spouse is also asked due to nerves or some other need. There are many people, mostly men (no, probably only men), who maintain that a Melchizedek priesthood holder must give the closing prayer. When confronted with this point of view, I made it a point of never having a man give the closing prayer. I have also hear the 'policy' that only adults may give prayers in Sacrament service. I wouldn't advise having a 12 year old go up there because it can be a rather frightening initiation into public prayers, but certainly 14 years is a good starting age.

Men and women may offer both opening and closing prayers in Church meetings.

Members of the bishopric should avoid the pattern of having a husband and wife pray in the same meeting. Such a pattern might convey an unintentional message of exclusion to those who are single. Members who are not often called upon should be included among those who are invited to pray. As needed, a member of the bishopric may caution those who pray not to sermonize or pray at great length.

[Tacenda]

Quote

"Men and women may offer both opening and closing prayers in Church meetings.

Members of the bishopric should avoid the pattern of having a husband and wife pray in the same meeting. Such a pattern might convey an unintentional message of exclusion to those who are single. Members who are not often called upon should be included among those who are invited to pray. As needed, a member of the bishopric may caution those who pray not to sermonize or pray at great length."

The quote that was quoted above made me think of this story told to me by a friend. She said in their ward the bishop on occasion would ask the speaker in Sacrament Meeting to sit down if it is going on too long or if he didn't like what was said. Also, at other times he'll call several random people from congregation to come up on the stand and sing hymns. It was the strangest thing I'd ever heard.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Tacenda

[happy]

Only wonder I had was about the clapping. I know the theory, but ultimately when someone plays some instrument really well, I want to clap.

[Buzzard]

Here is what is said about prayers in the handbook, I could not find the details on selecting speakers. It talks about avoiding the pattern rather than not doing it at all. My personal policy is, to avoid the pattern avoid it if at all possible. Of course, there are some people who will not speak or pray unless their spouse is also asked due to nerves or some other need. There are many people, mostly men (no, probably only men), who maintain that a Melchizedek priesthood holder must give the closing prayer. When confronted with this point of view, I made it a point of never having a man give the closing prayer. I have also hear the 'policy' that only adults may give prayers in Sacrament service. I wouldn't advise having a 12 year old go up there because it can be a rather frightening initiation into public prayers, but certainly 14 years is a good starting age.

I wonder if anyone ever considered how tough this makes it on us poor (insert appropriate pity here) Exec. secretaries? I have spend sometimes up to an hour on the phone trying to get a sister and a brother who are not married to each other to give the prayers.

Also, I have a fairly long list of members-all sisters-who have reqested not to be asked to pray. Many of them are very active, hold callings of responsibilty, etc.., but have a phobia about saying a public prayer. Go figger.

[Tacenda]

I wonder if anyone ever considered how tough this makes it on us poor (insert appropriate pity here) Exec. secretaries? I have spend sometimes up to an hour on the phone trying to get a sister and a brother who are not married to each other to give the prayers.

Also, I have a fairly long list of members-all sisters-who have reqested not to be asked to pray. Many of them are very active, hold callings of responsibilty, etc.., but have a phobia about saying a public prayer. Go figger.

My heart goes out to you. I was a RS Secretary for several years and it was awful trying to get prayers for RS. Several of the women would come in late just to avoid being asked. And we didn't have many in there to begin with. So the same ones got asked over and over again.

Then in the latest RS presidency the RS Pres. decided to ask for volunteers right before it was time to give the prayer. It was awesome because the person that rose their hand, I think, felt inspired to give the prayer that day, and some that you'd think would never want to, volunteered!

But I doubt this would fly in Sacrament meeting, right?

Edited August 23, 2012 by Tacenda

[Freedom]

I wonder if anyone ever considered how tough this makes it on us poor (insert appropriate pity here) Exec. secretaries? I have spend sometimes up to an hour on the phone trying to get a sister and a brother who are not married to each other to give the prayers.

Also, I have a fairly long list of members-all sisters-who have reqested not to be asked to pray. Many of them are very active, hold callings of responsibilty, etc.., but have a phobia about saying a public prayer. Go figger.

I found the this approach to be a huge waist of time, as you have attested. Instead, as with all other meetings, we called (I am not in a leadership position right now) upon someone that day. I see our current bishop follows the same pattern (as do most wards in my area). I kept a list of everybody who prayed so that, as opportunities arose, we could call on someone who does not normally pray. Making an assignment beforehand does not guarantee that they will be there on time if they are notorious late comers. Nevertheless, we can only do our best and if having couples pray is the only reasonable option then that is what must be done.

[Scott Lloyd]

The quote that was quoted above made me think of this story told to me by a friend. She said in their ward the bishop on occasion would ask the speaker in Sacrament Meeting to sit down if it is going on too long or if he didn't like what was said. Also, at other times he'll call several random people from congregation to come up on the stand and sing hymns. It was the strangest thing I'd ever heard.

Was the bishop off his meds?

[Freedom]

But I doubt this would fly in Sacrament meeting, right?

It doesn't for a few reasons -

1) The fear factor - due to the size of the audience, many people like to prepare themselves psychologically to go in front of such a large crowed unscripted

2) Separation - in a classroom, you have a more intimate contact with possible volunteers - in sacrament you have a huge psychological and physical barrier making it difficult to determine if the request can be fulfilled or even heard - the larger the group, the more likely an audience member is looking but not watching or listening.

3) Professionalism - the sacrament meeting is very formal meeting and not having someone prepared before hand would be like asking for suggestions for the sacrament prayer as the bread is being broken.

[Freedom]

Was the bishop off his meds?

Often times we would have way too much time left, or a key speaker does not show up. Under these circumstances, we would call certain individuals to share their testimonies. But random singing of hymns? That could be disastrous. As a missionary a general authority was giving a lesson on being prepared and randomly called up 6 missionaries to sing. It was an effective teaching moment, but a training session is different than a sacrament meeting.

[chileanseabass]

When I served my mission in Chile, Elder Holland was the area President and as a trial, church services were only 2 hours. Sacrament Meeting was first, and then the 2nd hour rotated from week to week between Sunday School and RS/Priesthood. We were told if it was successful they would consider adopting it elsewhere, but apparently it wasn't as it was scrapped after about a year (this was during 2004).

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am curious about sacrament meetings. Have they always been with members being called to speak? Were there ever minister types like in most churches?

Some early members were Quakers...in their meetings they would sit quietly until someone would stand to speak, when moved upon by the Spirit.

[onthepath]

I wonder if anyone ever considered how tough this makes it on us poor (insert appropriate pity here) Exec. secretaries? I have spend sometimes up to an hour on the phone trying to get a sister and a brother who are not married to each other to give the prayers.

Also, I have a fairly long list of members-all sisters-who have reqested not to be asked to pray. Many of them are very active, hold callings of responsibilty, etc.., but have a phobia about saying a public prayer. Go figger.

So when you call and find a couple willing to pray, ask one spouse to do it this week and the other to do it the following week. One call, two prayers scheduled, and no problem about whether they're married or not - just saved yourself a few hours' worth of work. And let them pick whether they want to do opening or closing (some people are willing to do one but not the other).

Oh, and isn't public speaking either the first- or second-most fear-inducing thing adults are asked to do? Plus, with prayers you're not supposed to have something written out that you can read like you can do when you give a talk.

[Freedom]

Oh, and isn't public speaking either the first- or second-most fear-inducing thing adults are asked to do? Plus, with prayers you're not supposed to have something written out that you can read like you can do when you give a talk.

Years ago when I seem to remember a women who was willing to pray but was terrified to speak so she said a prepared prayer so that when she went up there she did not frees. I don't have a problem with this if the circumstances require it. Testimonies are not to be prepared but I have seen esl members write their testimony down in english with some help so that they can also share their witness. Regardless, best to identify those who are willing and able and just cycle through them.

[Saints Alive]

It is not required, but the female in a married couple usually speaks first and her husband last. Perhaps your ward is simply not typical, has a more evenhanded bishop, or perhaps there are many more women in your ward. Throughout the LDS Church women attend in greater numbers, are more faithful to the Gospel, and do their visiting teaching more faithfully than the men. In the mission field, women are far more dependable and do not cause as much trouble as the men. George Romney used to say that, if he got into heaven, it would be by hanging onto his wife's skirt.

Thank God that we have women around to keep us focussed on what really matters.

CFR: I would like to see anything other than anecdotal evidence that supports any of your claims about men vs women's faithfulness.

[Saints Alive]

When I served my mission in Chile, Elder Holland was the area President and as a trial, church services were only 2 hours. Sacrament Meeting was first, and then the 2nd hour rotated from week to week between Sunday School and RS/Priesthood. We were told if it was successful they would consider adopting it elsewhere, but apparently it wasn't as it was scrapped after about a year (this was during 2004).

I'd go for that... to bad it didn't work out.

[Tacenda]

Was the bishop off his meds?

Or misused his power.

[Ticketyboo]

I've read with some interest the notion that preparedness is all. I'm currently responsible for assigning sacrament talks in our Branch. Everyone gets at least 4 weeks notice, but most forget or procrastinate until at the most just two nights before. I've also noted that those given free reign to speak on any topic seem to struggle to find a focus.

It is the Bishops responsibilty to arrange spiritually uplifting Sacrament meetings, so a lot of prayerful consideration goes into topics & speakers, yet life in a Branch like ours means that we can find ourselves bereft of speakers at any given time.

Just a few weeks ago our BP was conducting & announced me as the closing speaker, so just 4 seconds warning!

Also this last Sunday we only had one assigned speaker actually attending, I asked a new convert to bear her testimony of her first temple trip that week & it was wonderful.

The important thing is that the meetings are led by the Spirit.

[cinepro]

Some of my favorite articles on Church history are from the Ensign during the 1970's. They had some really, really interesting stuff.

Here's a great article on the history of LDS Sabbath worship (including the sacrament):

Mormon Sundays

When I recently gave the EQ lesson on George A. Smith and the Sabbath, I started off my lesson with a few trivia questions as I usually do. My favorite one was this:

In 1856, Brigham Young made a change to the way LDS practiced the Sacrament. What was it?

a. The use of water instead of wine.

b. Suspended the administration of the Sacrament throughout the Church.

c. Adopted the use of individual cups instead of a communal goblet.

Check out the article to find the answer...

[KevinG]

He suspended it. But I'll read the article anyway.