A Defense Of Sunstone

[Kevin Christensen]

Sunstone had only recently started when I got back from my mission in England in 1975. I've loved several things I found in it (for instance, Kolko on Mormonism and Mysticism, and essays on Process Theology, and the more recent God Wrestling), and have been terribly annoyed by others, very often, articles on the Book of Mormon. I've presented at Sunstone Symposiums in SLC, California, and once at Chicago. I've had two articles and a handful of letters published. I've probably got 30 years or so in my closet at home. Periodically my wife would say, "Should we be supporting them?" and I'd accentuate the positive. Then came an issue with an essay attacking my work on paradigms. Well, I'm fair game. Don let me respond. I was rather more disillusioned when Kerry Shirts' presentation on Joseph Smith as an Egyptologist was not published. I was given a shot at editing it, but it turned out that by "editing," they had in mind a meat cleaver, rather than a polishing cloth, which is what I provided. I let my subscription lapse not long after that, but a local member loans me hers. I've had presentations that went very well (NDEs and the Book of Mormon, Personality Type and Social Conflict, and Paradigm Debate in Mormon Studies), and some others that were more frustrating, either due to poor attendance, poor response, or both. I presented twice on Barker's work, and of the few attendees, most did not seem to get why Margaret Barker is important. (The response when my FARMS Occasional Paper was published was very different indeed. That made a huge impact, and the effects are still out there.) At that Sunstone, the respondent didn't so much respond to Barker as to give a nickel version of the Documentary Hypothesis and suggest that it proved that not only was the Bible false, but that there was no God. For my response, I said, I'd love to respond to his comments on my paper, but he didn't make any. So I sat down, rather obviously peeved, and I am in general, rather level headed and calm, valuing harmony. A later presentation on Paradigm Debate in Mormon Studies was very well attended, and had a good respondent, but overall, after attending that symposum, I realized that overall, I felt out of place, and have not been back.

And in dealing with the magazine, I'd written a long response to the Mapping Mormon Issues articles on the Book of Mormon, which got delayed, delayed, chopped down to a teeny letter that just barely touched the issues. I've had a few things published (On Wagging the Dog, and What is Real?) but have had others I thought were more important, rejected after very long incubation periods. A few of those later turned up in the Review or the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies.

I am glad that the magazine exists, and I'm glad that the symposiums exist. But it been a long time since I loved opening an issue the way I loved getting the Review. And when I think about the possibility of attending, it just seems like a long way to go from Pittsburgh. As to the future, who knows?

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Edited July 31, 2012 by Kevin Christensen

[Skylla]

Wolves learn how to adapt their attacks to the specific prey they seek.

But, of course, you know that.

Knock it off.

Skylla

[William Schryver]

What do you mean by this, Will? Why do you think Seth knows this, why do you feel the need to point out he knows this and why the italics for "you"?

Hello?

Have you seen his current avatar?

Edited July 31, 2012 by William Schryver

[William Schryver]

Knock it off.

Skylla

Knock what off?

Edited July 31, 2012 by William Schryver

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Rofl

[Calm]

Hello?

Have you seen his current avatar?

And that is all you were referring to?

[William Schryver]

And that is all you were referring to?

Isn't that enough?

[Calm]

Isn't that enough?

Not really answering my question, but since Skylla has spoken, there is good reason not to continue.

[William Schryver]

Not really answering my question, but since Skylla has spoken, there is good reason not to continue.

Would you like me to say, explicitly, that I consider Seth a wolf in sheep's clothing?

Or is it easier to just read between the lines?

Edited July 31, 2012 by William Schryver

[Scott Lloyd]

I guess I'll be the one to ask the obvious question:

Seth, what do you mean by your avatar? Do you see yourself literally as a wolf in sheep's clothing, or do you mean it in an ironic way, along the lines of my "I'm dethpicable" avatar?

[sethpayne]

I guess I'll be the one to ask the obvious question:

Seth, what do you mean by your avatar? Do you see yourself literally as a wolf in sheep's clothing, or do you mean it in an ironic way, along the lines of my "I'm dethpicable" avatar?

Hi Scott,

In an ironic way , certainly.

I have changed my avatar to avoid any further confusion.

You can see in my new avatar a depiction of me trying desperately to run away from Mark Wright.

Seth

Edited July 31, 2012 by sethpayne

[Calm]

I guess I'll be the one to ask the obvious question:

Seth, what do you mean by your avatar? Do you see yourself literally as a wolf in sheep's clothing, or do you mean it in an ironic way, along the lines of my "I'm dethpicable" avatar?

You should read Seth's blog. I think he is very open about how he views the Church and how he participates in it and why.

For example: http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=917

[Libs]

You should read Seth's blog. I think he is very open about how he views the Church and how he participates in it and why.

For example: http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=917

Thanks for sharing that, Calmoriah. Good blog post. I am encouraged by people like Seth (and John) who stay in the church.

[William Schryver]

BTW, I just got a wolf of my own: Spot

And, with that, I think I'll vacate this thread.

Edited July 31, 2012 by William Schryver

[William Schryver]

You should read Seth's blog. I think he is very open about how he views the Church and how he participates in it and why.

For example: http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=917

I've read several posts on Seth's blog, and followed his posting history at MDB over the years. I know Seth. He's a fine-looking young man, and I'm sure his friends speak very highly of him with good cause.

Edited July 31, 2012 by William Schryver

[Libs]

BTW, I just got a wolf of my own: Spot

Awwwww, how adorable!!!!

Edited July 31, 2012 by Libs

[wenglund]

I have considered attending the Sunstone Conference over the years, but I have decided against it for several reasons: 1) the costs/benefits don't pencil for me; 2) the critics deserve a break from my incessant counter-harranges; and 3) there isn't enough cowbell--and I need my cowbell.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 31, 2012 by wenglund

[HiJolly]

I attended Sunstone for the first time ever this last week. I went on Friday and Saturday, but much to my regret didn't get there early enough to attend Seth's presentation. I did get to the "Why I Stay" and the "Pillars of my Faith" presentations, both of which were excellent.

And I listened to Paul Toscano on Saturday, and I was the first person to comment. It was an interesting presentation he gave; The first 20 minutes or so were very uncomfortable to me and as I pondered what he was saying, the primary thought that came to me was that if he was sincere, then he should've been born 2,000 years ago. He wasn't, IMO, anywhere near reality in his criticisms. Of course there are always valid concerns with any institution the size of our church, but most of what he had to say wasn't relevant to our time/setting.

And I told him so, at the mic. OTOH, the rest of his presentation was a kind of a "Why I still like the church" commentary. And I found myself *really* identifying with his interpretations of the Spirit, of the human mind, of faith and truth, and practically everything else. Wow. And I told him that, too.

I considered my two days there to be very well spent. The money was more than I'd liked to have spent but for a first visit I figure it was worth it.

HiJolly

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Thanks for sharing!

Next year we'll have to organize a MADB/MDB "ward potluck." Nemesis can act as Bishop and give us all assignments of MDB posters who need special love and attention.

Whoops -- this place isn't MADB anymore is it? MDDB!

One day I will show up for FAIR just to have an excuse to return to Utah. Since my son moved back here not much reason to go. When there do you wear name tag with your name or screen name? I have only met two who post here.

[Calm]

When there do you wear name tag with your name or screen name?

When I was going we did both.

[Dan Vogel]

Seth, it was great meeting and talking with you briefly. Kerry, it was also great to see you again. Thanks for leaving your backyard and visiting with us apostates, critics, apologists, former apostates, etc.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Seth, it was great meeting and talking with you briefly. Kerry, it was also great to see you again. Thanks for leaving your backyard and visiting with us apostates, critics, apologists, former apostates, etc.

What? Utah is also part of my backyard........ ya know....... they say the reason the wind blows in Idaho is because Utah sucks..... It was great to see all you too!

[Yirgacheffe]

Not really answering my question, but since Skylla has spoken, there is good reason not to continue.

Apparently that's not much of a reason not to continue.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Yirgacheffe

[Hashbaz]

You can see in my new avatar a depiction of me trying desperately to run away from Mark Wright.

You can run, but you can't hide.

[William Schryver]

You can run, but you can't hide.

The older I get, the more I find I can hide but I can't run.