A Defense Of Sunstone

[sethpayne]

Hi All,

I just returned home after attending and presenting at this year's SLC Sunstone Symposium at the UofU. It was great to meet a few of you in person!

I've written a "Defense of Sunstone" and posted it on my blog because for me, Sunstone was a very important -- but certainly not the only -- part in helping me find my place in the Church and becoming (after about an 18 month hiatus) an active member once again.

http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=1107

I'm very curious to hear about your own experiences at Sunstone. Have they been positive? Negative?

A very close friend attended with me back in 2008 and was very put off by the tone of some of the presentations -- as was I. However, I would say that my overall experience at Sunstone has been extremely positive and, to borrow a phrase from Wade (although I'm butchering it!), come closer to Christ.

Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts and learn about your own personal experiences.

Thanks!

Seth

[Tacenda]

I posted in "Bradley and Hanks", 7th comment down. I loved my first time attending the symposium! I'm looking forward to the one next year at Utah State University. The presentations I went to, were excellent. I gleaned a different perspective, a positive one on many topics. But the ones that stand out are, the one on Friday "Interracial Marriage and the Beginning of the Priesthood and Temple Ban on Black Africans" and "Two Paper Session: The Principle, The Prophet, and Prison". But the whole reason I attended was to see "Bradley and Hanks"! But all the presentations were wonderful, and faith promoting. I wondered if Sunstone would be more leaning to non orthodox belief in the LDS church. But I feel any TBM's in attendance wouldn't be put off, especially if they're aware of the issues and attended Don and Maxine's conversion come back stories!

Edited July 30, 2012 by Tacenda

[sethpayne]

I posted in "Bradley and Hanks" 7th comment. I loved my first time attending the symposium! I'm looking forward to the one next year at Utah State University. The presentations I went to, were excellent. I gleaned a different perspective, a positive one on many topics. But the ones that stand out are, the one on Friday "Interracial Marriage and the Beginning of the Priesthood and Temple Ban on Black Africans" and "Two Paper Session: The Principle, The Prophet, and Prison". They were wonderful, and faith promoting. I wondered if Sunstone would be more leaning to non orthodox belief in the LDS church. But I feel any TBM's in attendance wouldn't be put off, especially if they're aware of the issues.

Thanks for sharing!

Next year we'll have to organize a MADB/MDB "ward potluck." Nemesis can act as Bishop and give us all assignments of MDB posters who need special love and attention.

Whoops -- this place isn't MADB anymore is it? MDDB!

Edited July 30, 2012 by sethpayne

[Tacenda]

Thanks for sharing!

Next year we'll have to organize a MADB/MDB "ward potluck." Nemesis can act as Bishop and give us all assignments of MDB posters who need special love and attention.

Whoops -- this place isn't MADB anymore is it? MDDB!

I just added to my post that the reason I attended in the first place was because of Don and Maxine's come back stories. So I'm very glad someone took charge and made this happen!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I really enjoyed running into Don Bradley, Dan Vogel, Maxine Hanks and Joe Swick and several others, Joe Geisner, Richard Bushman, and D. Michael Quinn. I was only there for Saturday so I could attend Joe Swick's incredible lecture on Mormonism and Masonry. Next year we ALL get together and do lunch or something. I may do a presentation actually, I am mulling it over.

[sethpayne]

I really enjoyed running into Don Bradley, Dan Vogel, Maxine Hanks and Joe Swick and several others, Joe Geisner, Richard Bushman, and D. Michael Quinn. I was only there for Saturday so I could attend Joe Swick's incredible lecture on Mormonism and Masonry. Next year we ALL get together and do lunch or something. I may do a presentation actually, I am mulling it over.

Kerry,

I am REALLY sorry I missed you. I could only stay for the morning on Saturday.

Glad to hear you had a good time and I completely agree -- we need to organize a get together next year! I think you should do I live version of your Backyard Professor video series. Chris Smith can blow in the microphone to simulate the sound of wind in the background. I'll hold up a blown up background photo behind you.

All you have to do is bring a hat.

Seth

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry,

I am REALLY sorry I missed you. I could only stay for the morning on Saturday.

Glad to hear you had a good time and I completely agree -- we need to organize a get together next year! I think you should do I live version of your Backyard Professor video series. Chris Smith can blow in the microphone to simulate the sound of wind in the background. I'll hold up a blown up background photo behind you.

All you have to do is bring a hat.

Seth

LOL! Do ya think they'd let me get away with that?!

[sethpayne]

LOL! Do ya think they'd let me get away with that?!

Of course! And I'm betting it would be one of the most well-attended sessions of the symposium.

Now we just have to convince Chris....

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Of course! And I'm betting it would be one of the most well-attended sessions of the symposium.

Now we just have to convince Chris....

I dunno......I have been known to gab for hours.....ya think Chris could blow in the mike for that long?

[sethpayne]

I dunno......I have been known to gab for hours.....ya think Chris could blow in the mike for that long?

Hmm.... we'll need a real blow hard to assume that responsibility. Might be tough to find someone on this board who fits that descrip.... oh wait, never mind.

I think we'll have a waiting list of volunteers.

[Calm]

But the whole reason I attended was to see "Bradley and Hanks"!

I am starting to think of them as some sort of dance team or magician's act the way people are talking about them "Bradley and Hanks, appearing center stage!".

[Calm]

Hmm.... we'll need a real blow hard to assume that responsibility. Might be tough to find someone on this board who fits that descrip.... oh wait, never mind.

I think we'll have a waiting list of volunteers.

I think you will have to do it in turns to give everyone who wants to a try at it.

[Bob Crockett]

Well, I'm published in Sunstone but only because the editor needed to find somebody to counterbalance the anti-prop 8 stuff.

I think it rather indefensible. Too much emphasis on sexuality. The titillating version of a Mormon journal.

[sethpayne]

Well, I'm published in Sunstone but only because the editor needed to find somebody to counterbalance the anti-prop 8 stuff.

I think it rather indefensible. Too much emphasis on sexuality. The titillating version of a Mormon journal.

You mean the magazine, right? The symposia do have a couple of dealing wtih LGBT issues or feminist issues but they make up a pretty small fragment of the symposium whole

[Libs]

I would love to attend, sometime. Maybe, I will have to visit SLC next year.

[Sky]

I've never been to a Sunstone Symposium, but have read their magazines. I've always seen it as an outlet for less-orthdox or disaffected members to feel more at home. So as a believing member, I'm not always totally comfortable with Sunstone. But I think they strive to have balance as much as possible.

[rameumptom]

Having given a seminar at the Kirtland Sunstone earlier this year, I'm jealous for those who were able to go to the big event and hear about Don and Maxine's returning.

Having talked with Mary Ellen Robertson in the past, I know she'd like to have more conservative and scholarly discussions in the symposiums. There were times at Kirtland that I felt like a fish out of water, however I'm glad I made the effort. Sunstone will only be as good as the people who address and attend it. Just as with other non-LDS symposium I attend, there often are seminars that I just totally am not interested in, there undoubtedly are those at Sunstone, also. Yet, there obviously is an audience for it as well.

Of the events at Kirtland, there was only one thing I would negatively critique, but will not do so here. I'm glad that of those who attended the SLC symposium and have blogged on it, have all been very pleased with the event.

[sethpayne]

Having given a seminar at the Kirtland Sunstone earlier this year, I'm jealous for those who were able to go to the big event and hear about Don and Maxine's returning.

Having talked with Mary Ellen Robertson in the past, I know she'd like to have more conservative and scholarly discussions in the symposiums. There were times at Kirtland that I felt like a fish out of water, however I'm glad I made the effort. Sunstone will only be as good as the people who address and attend it. Just as with other non-LDS symposium I attend, there often are seminars that I just totally am not interested in, there undoubtedly are those at Sunstone, also. Yet, there obviously is an audience for it as well.

Of the events at Kirtland, there was only one thing I would negatively critique, but will not do so here. I'm glad that of those who attended the SLC symposium and have blogged on it, have all been very pleased with the event.

Rameumpton,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I would love to see more Sunstone participation by "traditional" or conservative Latter-day Saints -- especially as respondents. For example, John Larsen gave a very interesting presentation on the Iroquois and how they were perceived by folks in the Palmyra area during Joseph's youth. John pointed out some parallels between cultural perceptions of the Iroquois and descriptions of Lamanites in the BoM. Chris Smith gave an excellent response but I think a response from someone who can argue for either the mesoamerican or heartland models would have generated a great conversation.

Seth

[USU78]

Rameumpton,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I would love to see more Sunstone participation by "traditional" or conservative Latter-day Saints -- especially as respondents. For example, John Larsen gave a very interesting presentation on the Iroquois and how they were perceived by folks in the Palmyra area during Joseph's youth. John pointed out some parallels between cultural perceptions of the Iroquois and descriptions of Lamanites in the BoM. Chris Smith gave an excellent response but I think a response from someone who can argue for either the mesoamerican or heartland models would have generated a great conversation.

Seth

I had that hope from its beginnings. It promised to be a meeting place for folks of all stripes . . .

and then it was hijacked by a particular sensibility, a particular political bent, a particular sexual politics advocacy.

And they drove me away with their radicalism.

I can't imagine their regaining my interest.

[sethpayne]

I had that hope from its beginnings. It promised to be a meeting place for folks of all stripes . . .

and then it was hijacked by a particular sensibility, a particular political bent, a particular sexual politics advocacy.

And they drove me away with their radicalism.

I can't imagine their regaining my interest.

Hi USU,

Do you think you could be an effective voice to counter those views and provide more balance?

My impression is that you are very good of defending your positions and would so so quite passionately.

Seth

[USU78]

Hi USU,

Do you think you could be an effective voice to counter those views and provide more balance?

My impression is that you are very good of defending your positions and would so so quite passionately.

Seth

No . . . the betrayal that was the preempting of all discussions in the '90s by the radical element, its embracement of "every bishop an abuser," and its homophile advocacy made them into my unfriends.

The supposed project "Mormon Defense League" was turned by Paul Toscano into a tool to attack Mormondom, and specifically Mormon discipline councils as abusive and evil. He out and out lied to me when he recruited my involvement.

As we know, his approach and beliefs were absurd and indefensible.

He was playing a stupid game.

He betrayed the ideals of inclusion.

And they've never looked back, as far as I can tell.

[William Schryver]

I had that hope from its beginnings. It promised to be a meeting place for folks of all stripes . . .

and then it was hijacked by a particular sensibility, a particular political bent, a particular sexual politics advocacy.

And they drove me away with their radicalism.

I can't imagine their regaining my interest.

I initially became aware of Sunstone not long after my marriage in 1982. I formed my first impressions of the symposium/magazine on the basis of those who, in the early 80s, attempted to "turn me on" to what it had to say. The kinds of people who were advocating for Sunstone back in the 1980s when I was in the old Farmington Second Ward were those whom I knew to be "on the fringe" of orthodoxy; young LDS who fancied themselves the intellectual superiors of their ward and stake leaders. I remember asking our wise old stake patriarch (Milton J. Hess) about something I had read in an issue of Sunstone. He did not discourage me from expanding my knowledge of things, but I will never forget how I felt when he quoted from the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 2

28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

I have heeded his implied counsel ever since then.

I believe President Hess is still humming along at the ripe old age of 97. I need to stop by and talk to him again while I still can ...

Edited July 31, 2012 by William Schryver

[sethpayne]

No . . . the betrayal that was the preempting of all discussions in the '90s by the radical element, its embracement of "every bishop an abuser," and its homophile advocacy made them into my unfriends.

The supposed project "Mormon Defense League" was turned by Paul Toscano into a tool to attack Mormondom, and specifically Mormon discipline councils as abusive and evil. He out and out lied to me when he recruited my involvement.

As we know, his approach and beliefs were absurd and indefensible.

He was playing a stupid game.

He betrayed the ideals of inclusion.

And they've never looked back, as far as I can tell.

I'm in agreement with you that the presentations in the past by Paul Toscano are inappropriate and offensive. The last time I heard him speak was in 2008 and he was still ranting. I walked out.

I also agree that the Mormon Alliance went way too far in their claims of "spiritual abuse" by local leaders. I mean, we all agree some Bishops make mistakes in their ministry -- even big mistakes. But in no way is this a fair characterization of leadership Church-wide.

My impression is that Sunstone has, for the most part, moved past that vitriolic 1990's phase.

[William Schryver]

My impression is that Sunstone has, for the most part, moved past that vitriolic 1990's phase.

Wolves learn how to adapt their attacks to the specific prey they seek.

But, of course, you know that.

[Calm]

But, of course, you know that.

What do you mean by this, Will? Why do you think Seth knows this, why do you feel the need to point out he knows this and why the italics for "you"? Edited July 31, 2012 by calmoriah