Did God Order The Death Of Whole Tribes And Nations (O.T.)?

[Rivers]

I answered that I am not sure but whether God really commanded it or not, this scripure makes it clear that God certainly doesn't enjoy destroying people.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no ^apleasure in the ^bdeath of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways." Ezekial 33:11

Edited July 30, 2012 by Rivers

[Libs]

These poll results are pretty frightening.

Actually, I am surprised at how many believe that God would not have ordered the killing of whole nations. It's almost 50/50. From my perspective, that's a positive.

Most Evangelicals I talk to, are very adamant that every word in the Bible came from God. That's something I really have a difficult time believing....and glad to know I am not alone in that.

[ERayR]

Actually, I am surprised at how many believe that God would not have ordered the killing of whole nations. It's almost 50/50. From my perspective, that's a positive.

Most Evangelicals I talk to, are very adamant that every word in the Bible came from God. That's something I really have a difficult time believing....and glad to know I am not alone in that.

There is quite a difference in " that every word in the Bible came from God" and believing that the biblical events happened.

[Libs]

There is quite a difference in " that every word in the Bible came from God" and believing that the biblical events happened.

I've never claimed that the invasion of Canaan never happened (although, I understand there is no physical evidence of that?). My only "wondering" was about whether or not GOD, himself, ordered the death of the Canaanites.

[Zakuska]

I've never claimed that the invasion of Canaan never happened (although, I understand there is no physical evidence of that?). My only "wondering" was about whether or not GOD, himself, ordered the death of the Canaanites.

I think it depends on which history your read. According to one it was God. According to another, the Devil done it.

2 Samuel 24:1

1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Seems to me that someone has been rewriting the History of Israel!

Edited July 30, 2012 by Zakuska

[ERayR]

I've never claimed that the invasion of Canaan never happened (although, I understand there is no physical evidence of that?). My only "wondering" was about whether or not GOD, himself, ordered the death of the Canaanites.

And that is a question that you will never have a definitive answer for this side of the veil. Again you can interject your own sensibilities and suppose whatever you want but you can not know. For the record, ZI do not endorse genocide either but as I do not have a perfect understanding I can not authoritatively say God did not command it for his own purposes.

[supersnail]

As long as critics of the OT are suggesting that genocide is okay as long as women and children are spared, we should recognize the distasteful implication of talk about sparing "helpless" innocents and killing all the men. What it obviously means is slavery and/or rape. This actually has a bearing on wars of the 20th century, in which women were "spared" and "saved" only to be raped, put in brothels, pressured into marriages that would not have otherwise been, trafficked for sex, or reduced to impoverished widowhood. A message such as kill everyone or don't do it at all may actually discourage genocide because of burdensome requirements as to how it must be done if it will be done. The notion of sparing the innocent while killing all potential combatants (basically all marrying-age males) can be oppressive or paternalistic.

Edited July 31, 2012 by supersnail

[CASteinman]

Most Evangelicals I talk to, are very adamant that every word in the Bible came from God.

Mormons don't actually believe that.

[Libs]

Mormons don't actually believe that.

I know.

[blackstrap]

Libs,just so you know. It was decided sometime back( by whom I'm not sure) that every poll should always have the option to vote for

" this is a silly poll " That handles the 'Who cares' types.

[Libs]

Ah, okay. I didn't know about that.

[Libs]

There.....done!

[Buzzard]

Before we declare that God would not wipe out a population, we need to look at the particular population in question. God said he would spare Sodom if he could find even a few righteous men. The Caananites encountered by Joshua were avid practitioners of human child sacrifice (Molech).

When viewed in in eternal perspective, it was actually an act of mercy to prevent these civilizations from bringing more innocent spirits into a situation where they had no, none, zero chance of being raised in righteousness.

And in the case of the Caanaites, it was the Israelites failure to completely cleanse the land of their previous inhabitants that led to all sorts of idolatry issues for the Israelite nation for hundreds of years. The carnal attractiveness of the Caananite idols proved too tempting for Israel to leave alone. It took the Babylonian captivity to cauterize that infection.

Too often, we think we know better than God. But he has a gift of perspective that we simply do not and cannot in mortality possess.

[The Nehor]

Before we declare that God would not wipe out a population, we need to look at the particular population in question. God said he would spare Sodom if he could find even a few righteous men. The Caananites encountered by Joshua were avid practitioners of human child sacrifice (Molech).

When viewed in in eternal perspective, it was actually an act of mercy to prevent these civilizations from bringing more innocent spirits into a situation where they had no, none, zero chance of being raised in righteousness.

And in the case of the Caanaites, it was the Israelites failure to completely cleanse the land of their previous inhabitants that led to all sorts of idolatry issues for the Israelite nation for hundreds of years. The carnal attractiveness of the Caananite idols proved too tempting for Israel to leave alone. It took the Babylonian captivity to cauterize that infection.

Too often, we think we know better than God. But he has a gift of perspective that we simply do not and cannot in mortality possess.

I agree with your reasoning but not with the conclusion. God wiped out Sodom himself. He wiped out the wicked Nephites himself. He wiped out the wicked with the Flood himself. I am dubious that in this one instance God would choose mortals to exact punishment especially considering the effects this can have on mortals.

I also don't believe that the genocide was necessary for the Israelites to take over. The simple reality is that Israel had idolaters on all sides they were told not to wipe out. Killing the Caananites would not have eliminated the temptation. I also find it curious that God gave the Israelites Israel for their Promised Land. It is not that rich in resources and the talk of milk and honey seems to be hyperbole. Add in that they were hemmed in on all sides by hostile powers including the superpowers of the day and it seems insane. I suspect the Israelites were put there to convert the Caananites and their neighbors. If so they largely failed. May we do better.

[teddyaware]

The book of Moses, in the Pearl of Great Price, gives us some interesting points to ponder with regard to this issue. With the blessing of modern revelation, we are allowed to peer into heaven to see what went on there, prior to the great flood that would extinguish a world of humanity -- except for eleven souls -- that had totally ripened in iniquity. Though the flood of Noah's time is considered one of the quintessential examples of God's judgmental wrath upon the wicked, nevertheless, Enoch's vision -- as recorded in Moses chapter 7 -- reveals an emotionally tortured God who weeps bitterly as he contemplates the judgements he's obliged to carry out by law, but in which he takes no pleasure at all. In this remarkable chapter we see a God who is so distraught over the coming outpouring of his wrath -- a judgement that eternal law demands must be executed upon the wicked for the sake of their own long-term good -- that Enoch is utterly astonished at the overwhelming spectacle of such immense, divine anguish. In this vision, it is not only God who is weeping, but the entire host of heaven is caught up in the gut wrenching mourning, "shedding forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains (After digesting this chapter, one cannot help but believe the rain of the actual flood was a graphic symbol of God's own broken heart)". Then, after being shown the true extent of the wickedness of humanity in that day, even Enoch's heart breaks.

What follows are some of the pertinent verses from Moses 7. Hopefully, the board members here will be willing to read and ponder these verses of LDS scripture with at least the same degree of focus and diligence they exercise while reading the non-scriptural comments found on this site. After all, if I the honest in heart will study and ponder the following verses of scripture with real intent, their questions as to whether or not the God of wrath and judgement is also a being of true love, mercy and salvation. Here they are:

25 And he (Enoch) saw angels descending out of heaven; and he heard a loud voice saying: Wo, wo be unto the inhabitants of the earth.

26 And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.

27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity? ...

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

9And That (Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.

41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.

So, by these verses we see that the heartbroken God of Heaven sent forth floods upon mankind in order to eventually save them. After their deaths, the wicked are shut up in a spirit prison (hell), a place where sinners are exposed to the results of their own folly, unmitigated. But in a future day, after suffering the unavoidable consequences that are inflicted upon them as a result of their casting aside and setting at naught the love-inspired decrees of a just and loving God, they will eventually be given the opportunity to come unto Christ (see Doctrine & Covenants 138) and repent. If they do at length elect to come unto Christ and sincerely repent -- prior to the final day of judgement -- they will have the blessed opportunity to joyfully receive salvation and happiness in one of God's many mansions of glory (see Doctrine & Covenants 76).

The flood -- as well as the many other examples of God's wrathful judgements -- are a tough-love means to a better and glorious end for the children of God -- children whom he loves with a love that is infinite and eternal. One can rest assured that if in the various circumstances God encounters there is some other less extreme means to eventually save his wayward children, he will most certainly do use them. But sometimes the Sodom and Gomorrah option is the only optinion that will save, so ripened in iniquity and desperate wickedness are his children. Satan's hold upon their hearts and minds is so great that terrible judgements, like those spoken of in 3rd Nephi, are the only means whereby deliverance from death and hell can be accomplished...

And That (Christ) which I have chosen hath pled (for those suffering in the sprit prison) before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their (the wicked of Noah's day) sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me (the day glorious day of the resurrection of Christ, when missionary work commences in the spirit world), and until that day they shall be in torment (learn by suffering the consequences that result from their own sins).

The bottom line? In spite of what some might think, God really is love; always doing that which is in the eternal best interests of his children -- as difficult and hard to do as that sometimes it might be...

Doubt not, but be believeing. (Jesus Christ)

[Calm]

especially considering the effects this can have on mortals.

My biggest question mark about the whole concept.

[bluebell]

My biggest question mark about the whole concept.

I agree. To me, having God ask men to kill women and children-even babies-is a huge issue. It would be an immense emotional burden to everyone involved.

[Verum]

I voted no only because I personally have different views on Bible and its origins, but answering YES would not be incompatible with LDS doctrine or the nature of an all-loving God. If one believes that God loves his children then one can trust that he acts in ways that ultimately make us happy and "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"--even if we don't understand how he does it and if it seems immoral.

I question the roots of the Old Testament as something that accurately reflecting God's will for his people, but if one believes in its origins, then I don't see answering yes to this question as problematic.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Verum

[DarkScythe]

sometimes Death is a mercy. And the time of the Old Testement, it was a more brutal period.

[Libs]

Verum....I don't think it, necessarily goes against LDS doctrine, but I do think it is inconsistent with a loving and merciful God.

DarkScythe...death can be merciful, yes, if someone is suffering. But, most of these people were just living their lives. We are talking about the slaughter of women, children, babies and innocent animals.

[supersnail]

Verum....I don't think it, necessarily goes against LDS doctrine, but I do think it is inconsistent with a loving and merciful God.

DarkScythe...death can be merciful, yes, if someone is suffering. But, most of these people were just living their lives. We are talking about the slaughter of women, children, babies and innocent animals.

I think I understand what you meant to say, but the above still implies a comparison of women and children to animals, and that is problematic for a number of reasons. Women and children are not a resource like animals. "Sparing" women and children along with animals has implications of rape and slavery. Yes, of course I know you don't support those things, but we need to be careful about how we distinguish women and children from men. Many women were "spared" during the Nanking Massacre of the 20th century only to be raped or find themselves in brothels. Sparing women and children while the men are assumed to be fighters or incorrigible enemies has sinister undertones.

Edited August 5, 2012 by supersnail

[supersnail]

Regarding animals, it would be one thing if God were depicted as supporting the torture of animals. That's not the case. The Israelites were faced with situations of what do with the resources their enemies controlled, and there was a choice between just destroying animals, or plundering them, or leaving them alone for others to recover. Based on the OT, it appears God allowed plunder in some cases and not in others, and there is a pattern to what was allowed and what was prohibited. We need to think about this and not make assumptions. It's not that God was being capricious. An alternative to razing was plunder. Plunder could have resulted in idolatry, beside being morally questionable in itself.

Edited August 5, 2012 by supersnail

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I voted yes. Lets just go right ahead and take the scripture literally as Nibley claimed to have done, but, with this caveat, lets see the whole truth and significance of God doing such immoral acts against his own created children. It's fun, besides, to see the mental gynastic silliness of people trying to come up with reasons and excuses to exonerate such immorality.

[supersnail]

Putting Deuteronomy and Joshua in historical and social context isn't the same thing as moral relativism. It's obvious to most of us that genocide is wrong (most of us--but some atheists purporting to judge God based on some verses in the OT have no problem with the idea of nuking other countries because of their religion), but if cities were going to be attacked anyway in OT times, there are ways to do that that are better than others. The use of the word "genocide" and the topic of this thread are a bit misleading, because if a *city* (not necessarily a whole ethnic group as implied) surrendered, and even if it didn't, different things were prescribed depending on circumstances. So in some cases plunder and slavery were prohibited, for example.

Those acting like Deuteronomy and Joshua should bestow the ideals of liberal democracy and capitalism on their readers seem not to understand the point of religion in a developing and evolving world in which we are continually tested.

[Libs]

I think I understand what you meant to say, but the above still implies a comparison of women and children to animals, and that is problematic for a number of reasons. Women and children are not a resource like animals. "Sparing" women and children along with animals has implications of rape and slavery. Yes, of course I know you don't support those things, but we need to be careful about how we distinguish women and children from men. Many women were "spared" during the Nanking Massacre of the 20th century only to be raped or find themselves in brothels. Sparing women and children while the men are assumed to be fighters or incorrigible enemies has sinister undertones.

To be more clear, I have a difficult time believing God ordered the killing of men, either. I just don't see it as a part of God's character.

Someone, earlier, did mention that it could be merciful, if a nation had fallen so far that there was no hope of recovering or turning around. I can accept that as a possibility, only it seems very inconsistent with the way he deals with us, today. I think, in some cases, like with Hitler, man has fallen at least as far, if not beyond, the worshipers of Moloch. There have been some pretty terrible atrocities, in this world, that it seems God would have dealt with, in the same way, if he were so inclined.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Libs