Did God Order The Death Of Whole Tribes And Nations (O.T.)?

[Calm]

Hitler and his group were wiped out, weren't they?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

To be more clear, I have a difficult time believing God ordered the killing of men, either. I just don't see it as a part of God's character.

Someone, earlier, did mention that it could be merciful, if a nation had fallen so far that there was no hope of recovering or turning around. I can accept that as a possibility, only it seems very inconsistent with the way he deals with us, today. I think, in some cases, like with Hitler, man has fallen at least as far, if not beyond, the worshipers of Moloch. There have been some pretty terrible atrocities, in this world, that it seems God would have dealt with, in the same way, if he were so inclined.

Interesting..... I find it impossible to fathom, based on the theology that has developed concerning God being all knowing, all loving, all everything you know..... I sincerely have a very difficult time fathoming that this being who honestly is at least a little bit more intelligent than we are could not possibly come up with any other solution than killing off everyone and everything simply because they were in a land that Israel wanted?! God seriously could not do anything other than this? I mean seriously? This just ain't the way to treat yer kids folks. There is, no matter how we slice it, simply no justification for this. And it's not that it happened once, but in several and many instances, God simply behaves as a horrible tyrant all the way around. Elisha (Elijah?) and the children making fun of his baldness and the she bears coming and killing them for their mockery. I mean come on already! Dontchta think that is just a wee bit over the top in proportion to the crime? Making fun of someone is such a vicious crime?! From God's end too? There is just vastly too much of this, and we certainly do see the accurate character of Yahweh in it, since it occurs all the way through Israel's history.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Libs]

Hitler and his group were wiped out, weren't they?

Yes....he killed himself, actually, and only after he wiped out six million Jews and various other of what he considered "undesirables".

Edited August 6, 2012 by Libs

[Libs]

Interesting..... I find it impossible to fathom, based on the theology that has developed concerning God being all knowing, all loving, all everything you know..... I sincerely have a very difficult time fathoming that this being who honestly is at least a little bit more intelligent than we are could not possibly come up with any other solution than killing off everyone and everything simply because they were in a land that Israel wanted?! God seriously could not do anything other than this? I mean seriously? This just ain't the way to treat yer kids folks. There is, no matter how we slice it, simply no justification for this. And it's not that it happened once, but in several and many instances, God simply behaves as a horrible tyrant all the way around. Elisha (Elijah?) and the children making fun of his baldness and the she bears coming and killing them for their mockery. I mean come on already! Dontchta think that is just a wee bit over the top in proportion to the crime? Making fun of someone is such a vicious crime?! From God's end too? There is just vastly too much of this, and we certainly do see the accurate character of Yahweh in it, since it occurs all the way through Israel's history.

I don't, seriously, believe it is the character of Yahweh. I tend to believe much was attributed to him, by Israel, that was not really of him, or a part of his character.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Libs

[supersnail]

To be more clear, I have a difficult time believing God ordered the killing of men, either. I just don't see it as a part of God's character.

Someone, earlier, did mention that it could be merciful, if a nation had fallen so far that there was no hope of recovering or turning around. I can accept that as a possibility, only it seems very inconsistent with the way he deals with us, today. I think, in some cases, like with Hitler, man has fallen at least as far, if not beyond, the worshipers of Moloch. There have been some pretty terrible atrocities, in this world, that it seems God would have dealt with, in the same way, if he were so inclined.

My quick answer to this is that society develops over time. Social conditions are different.

Atheists actually put themselves in a bit of a bind with this question. Because if God doesn't exist, obviously he didn't order anything, but such activity as razing was still commonplace at the time (even if the Israelites didn't actually carry out all of the proscription mandated). The question becomes what function did the OT serve in that context. The ideas in the OT were a source of progress compared with the status quo even as it reflected the status quo.

Idolatry is extremely serious. The point was made thousands of years ago, and now we have Deuteronomy and Joshua to read. In a way, it makes little sense to say that genocide or city-razing is worse than idolatry, because idolatry is at the root of sin. So now we, speaking collectively, sit around today criticizing scripture containing an important message about idolatry while making up excuses for blowing up Japanese cities with hundreds of thousands of people.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I don't, seriously, believe it is the character of Yahweh. I tend to believe much was attributed to him, by Israel, that was not really of him, or a part of his character.

The problem with this is that if they got so very much wrong about their God, why accept anything else they ever said about anything else? If I can't trust them on the reality of their God, his characteristics (which they claimed they received from him no less!), then what is there left to trust of their assertions on what else they tried to teach?

[Calm]

Yes....he killed himself, actually, and only after he wiped out six million Jews and various other of what he considered "undesirables".

True, I was only being nitpicky.....not really serious. I would have assumed there were many good Germans there at the time so the whole nation shouldn't be wiped out based on the iniquity of others...at least ten good men could be found kind of thing.

Though the ripening in iniquity takes on a whole new meaning when applied to Hitler and Stalin and others who worked on eliminating entire peoples and managed to count up millions in fatalities.

[Libs]

True, I was only being nitpicky.....not really serious. I would have assumed there were many good Germans there at the time so the whole nation shouldn't be wiped out based on the iniquity of others...at least ten good men could be found kind of thing.

Though the ripening in iniquity takes on a whole new meaning when applied to Hitler and Stalin and others who worked on eliminating entire peoples and managed to count up millions in fatalities.

Yes, and I've heard that he thought he had God on his side, as well (or said he did, anyway). Too many people have believed they truly had God on their side, even while committing atrocities (9/11 also comes to mind), I am just very skeptical, for the most part, even when it is claimed in the Bible, by certain peoples.

[Libs]

The problem with this is that if they got so very much wrong about their God, why accept anything else they ever said about anything else? If I can't trust them on the reality of their God, his characteristics (which they claimed they received from him no less!), then what is there left to trust of their assertions on what else they tried to teach?

I believe our relationship with God is very personal and I take from the scriptures whatever seems to be relevant to my life or to me, personally. I get a lot out of scripture. I love the New Testament, in particular...and the Book of Mormon. But, I don't believe every word is from God, anymore than I believe every word from the prophets, today, are from God. I think we have to be discerning. I also believe that each of us has our own particular lessons to learn. I don't think we are all on the same page, spiritually. Same path...but, not in the same place on that path.

[djholmess]

I believe our relationship with God is very personal and I take from the scriptures whatever seems to be relevant to my life or to me, personally. I get a lot out of scripture. I love the New Testament, in particular...and the Book of Mormon. But, I don't believe every word is from God, anymore than I believe every word from the prophets, today, are from God. I think we have to be discerning. I also believe that each of us has our own particular lessons to learn. I don't think we are all on the same page, spiritually. Same path...but, not in the same place on that path.

So what are the foundations for your beliefs-if you pick and chose between the Bible, BoM and prophets how do you know which to accept?

[Libs]

So what are the foundations for your beliefs-if you pick and chose between the Bible, BoM and prophets how do you know which to accept?

The spirit....and sometimes just plain old common sense.

I work from the premise that God is transcendental love.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Libs

[djholmess]

The spirit....and sometimes just plain old common sense.

I work from the premise that God is transcendental love.

So do you believe this is subjective - will the spirit tell someone else something is true when he tells you it is false? And I take it common sense is subjective, what seems sensible to me may not be sensible to you right?

I also take it your premise is an assumption or do you believe you have a reason to believe it?

[Libs]

So do you believe this is subjective - will the spirit tell someone else something is true when he tells you it is false? And I take it common sense is subjective, what seems sensible to me may not be sensible to you right?

I also take it your premise is an assumption or do you believe you have a reason to believe it?

I have a lot of reasons to believe that God is Supreme Love. Jesus Christ is at the top of that list.

I think people get different answers, sometimes, because (as I mentioned) we are at different places on the path. I think we all believe some things that are not quite true, along the way. And, we are all looking through a "glass darkly". I am willing to admit that I may not be able to understand what is meant by the "wrath of God", at this time, and simply need to put it aside, and work with what I can understand.

[thesometimesaint]

Libs:

What we can all agree on is those ancient Israelites sure thought so.

[Libs]

SS, yes, they did.

I don't think that makes it, necessarily, the reality of it, though.

[halconero]

I believe He did order it, and that He did command the Israelites to do it.

The following is opinion, supported by some material from institute and church manuals, but nothing that can be considered doctrine from the standard works or official declarations.

I believe that God's commandments help shape us to become gods and do the things He does.

Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? I feel that it was in preparation for a time in which Abraham, as a god, would send his own only begotten son to atone for the sins of another world. If he could not abide by the celestial law he would not be fit for godhood.

Why did God command Nephi to kill Laban? Why was that a test? If Nephi could not righteously kill, still with sorrow, how could he understand how Heavenly Father kills, with sorrow and an eternal perspective?

I feel this was God testing to see if Israel could abide a celestial law. Capital punishment is, at times, a celestial law for certain sins.

This is all opinion. I have feelings on why God commanded other difficult tasks, from plural marriage to consecration, but I'll leave it where it is right now.

Edited August 9, 2012 by halconero

[Libs]

I believe that God's commandments help shape us to become gods and do the things He does.

This may well be, but how would the command, to kill another human being, move us towards "godhood"? Seems more of a digression, to me.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hitler and his group were wiped out, weren't they?

I was at my Doctor yesterday listening a woman with a British acient speaking of the "Blitz" and how her father and brother died at the hands of German bombers...it was great and sad all at the same time. Edited August 10, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[thesometimesaint]

Libs:

It teaches the law of obedience. IOW Will we do what so ever our God has commanded?

[Libs]

Libs:

It teaches the law of obedience. IOW Will we do what so ever our God has commanded?

Yes, but my bottom line question is, would God actually ask someone to kill? Especially, innocent children and animals? I have big doubts that a loving God would command people to kill anyone, at all. Just seems very out of character.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Libs

[halconero]

This may well be, but how would the command, to kill another human being, move us towards "godhood"? Seems more of a digression, to me.

God has killed at times, from the flood to the destruction of most of the Nephite cities at Christ's death. He did so for righteous and just reasons, the understanding of which I think we can somewhat grasp but not personally comprehend as He does.

For Nephi to kill he had to go through somewhat of a traumatic experience. Maybe it gave him greater perspective and insight into the value of life/the scriptures/obedience and death, I can only speculate. It was for his benifit though.

I am one of those who personally believes that God will help us do what he does now: create, choose a Son as a Saviour, institute the Plan of happiness for other intelligences and even destroy at times.

I personally believe that there will come a time when those who are exalted may have to order or execute the death of their own spirit sons and daughters and they'll have to be prepared to do so.

This is all speculation, none of it official doctrine, and if I am shown to be wrong that's okay.

[DH]

Not sure if I am doing this right. This is my first poll.

The poll is working--good job on putting together your first poll!

I voted "no," God did not command them to commit genocide. I know God better than that.

For the benefit of those who would quote scriptures to the contrary, I believe that the ancient Israelites may have said God commanded them to do that, but they were just making excuses for their behavior, not accurately reflecting reality. You'll notice that in every war throughout history, BOTH sides claim that God (or righteousness, in the case of atheist nations) is on their side. Israel is no exception to that human tendency to justify their actions in that manner.

Edited August 10, 2012 by DH

[Tacenda]

Yes, but my bottom line question is, would God actually ask someone to kill? Especially, innocent children and animals? But, I have big doubts that a loving God would command people to kill anyone, at all. Just seems very out of character.

I don't think God would. I think some men just like war. So possibly used God as an excuse.

[Tacenda]

The poll is working--good job on putting together your first poll!

I voted "no," God did not command them to commit genocide. I know God better than that.

For the benefit of those who would quote scriptures to the contrary, I believe that the ancient Israelites may have said God commanded them to do that, but they were just making excuses for their behavior, not accurately reflecting reality. You'll notice that in every war throughout history, BOTH sides claim that God (or righteousness, in the case of atheist nations) is on their side. Israel is no exception to that human tendency to justify their actions in that manner.

Oh my, I just barely posted without reading your post! Yours is so much better. Says everything I wanted to say but couldn't.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Tacenda

[Libs]

The poll is working--good job on putting together your first poll!

Thanks, DH.

I voted "no," God did not command them to commit genocide. I know God better than that.

For the benefit of those who would quote scriptures to the contrary, I believe that the ancient Israelites may have said God commanded them to do that, but they were just making excuses for their behavior, not accurately reflecting reality. You'll notice that in every war throughout history, BOTH sides claim that God (or righteousness, in the case of atheist nations) is on their side. Israel is no exception to that human tendency to justify their actions in that manner.

Those are pretty much my sentiments, as well....until given further light and knowledge, at least.