Craig Paxton Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 We read in the Book of Mormon, Mormon’s admonition that…4… when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.I have also noticed other posters retricting the truth seeker with this same "Sincereity" qualifier.…careful examination of the powerful founding documents of the LDS Church imbues the sincere reader with that same plain-spoken charisma and courage.The teachings in the Book of Mormon can and will improve the life and understanding of the sincere student. But what of the sincere reader, the sincere student, the truth seeker who asks with a sincere heart who comes to a different conclusion…one that leads them away from Mormonism.What was wrong with their sincere attempt? Were they not sincere also? Was it the level of their sincerity that prevented them from coming to a “Knowledge” of LDS truth claims…in other words… were they just not sincere enough? And who qualifies to judge the sincerity level of another person or the real intent of their heart other than the truth seeker themselves?I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?No
thesometimesaint Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Craig Paxton:I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?No.
Popular Post bluebell Posted July 27, 2012 Popular Post Posted July 27, 2012 I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?No. The sincereity caveat, as i understand it, is meant for those people who would ask something of God, such as whether or not something is of Him or His will, with no desire to act on the knowledge received. It protects people from being responsible for knowledge they are not ready for. However, the necessity for sincerety needs to be understood, so that someone without sincerety will not mistake getting no answer for getting 'no' as an answer.If someone claims they were sincere but led away from the LDS church, then that is between them and God. I don't feel it's anyone's business to attempt to interpret the legitimacy of that, as it is impossible to do so.That is why we are responsible for the knowledge that WE receive, and not for the knowledge claimed to have been received by other people. 5
J Green Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?And I'll add my "No" to the list as well.No.
cesc101 Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Isn't that what agency is meant for?People can always come to a conclusion that leads away from the church (even with complete sincerity.) I guess its all about expectation, and upbringing.
Libs Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 There are a lot of people who were not brought up in the church who are led into the church....and, many who were brought up in the church, leave.
CV75 Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?Yes, when “sincerity” means the person’s conscience is in sufficient harmony with whatever God has given and/or offered him all his life. Such people tend to accept the Gospel when it is presented to them. Edited July 27, 2012 by CV75
cesc101 Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 There are a lot of people who were not brought up in the church who are led into the church....and, many who were brought up in the church, leave.Yea... my guess?! Expectations!!
wenglund Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 No. People can be sincerely misguided and mistaken.However, this isn't to suggest that sincerity isn't valuable or perhaps even in some ways a necessary element in spiritual confirmation and growth. I believe it is. As important, though, if not more so, is accuracy of perceptions and workability.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Libs Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Yea... my guess?!Expectations!!I guess, I don't really understand what you mean.I was a convert and for most of my life never had any expectation of becoming LDS (furthest thing from my mind, really). OTOH, I would think that someone who was raised LDS would have a strong expectation of remaining in the church.
ERayR Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?Is the claim of sincerity always sincere?
Libs Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Probably not, but unless we are mindreaders, I don't think it's (usually) appropriate to make that judgment.
ERayR Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Probably not, but unless we are mindreaders, I don't think it's (usually) appropriate to make that judgment.Not passing judgement only asking the question and it was in relation to Craig Paxton"s profession of sincerity.
KevinG Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 My understanding of that passage runs along the lines of "I'm asking of God willing to do whatever is asked of me in return" vs. "I'm asking because I want something in return".
Craig Paxton Posted July 27, 2012 Author Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) And so someone who asks God sincerely with real intent but is then told by God that this is not His church...were they sincerely sincere? Is it even possible in your worldview for this scenario? If no, why not. Edited July 27, 2012 by Craig Paxton
volgadon Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 And so someone who asks God sincerely with real intent but is then told by God that this is not His church...were they sincerely sincere? Is it even possible in your worldview for this scenario? If no, why not.I'll leave the question between God and that person. 2
RadioFreeDeath Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 However Moroni's promise is a promise. If you meet the requirement of sincerity among the other and follow it, you are promised an answer. Therefore I think the OP is backwards. IF an individual is sincere AND IF the other requirements of Moroni's promise is met, than an answer from God as to the truthfullness of the Book of Mormon is guaranteed. Any other answer and Moroni's promise isn't a promise anymore, its just a maybe. Therefore while it is possible to be sincere and fail in other aspects of the promise, if a person is truly sincere and meets the rest of the promise than yes the only result can be one that leads to agreement with LDS truth claims. 1
Damien the Leper Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 We read in the Book of Mormon, Mormon’s admonition that…4… when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.I have also noticed other posters retricting the truth seeker with this same "Sincereity" qualifier.But what of the sincere reader, the sincere student, the truth seeker who asks with a sincere heart who comes to a different conclusion…one that leads them away from Mormonism.What was wrong with their sincere attempt? Were they not sincere also? Was it the level of their sincerity that prevented them from coming to a “Knowledge” of LDS truth claims…in other words… were they just not sincere enough? And who qualifies to judge the sincerity level of another person or the real intent of their heart other than the truth seeker themselves?I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?I see no reason to believe that all are called by God to the LDS church. I see no reason to believe that the reward of the true and honest seekers who never have any kind of affiliation with the LDS church will be anything less than a most wonderous and glorious gift from a Father who loves unconditionally.Because the BoM says so...Because the D&C says so...Because the [insert modern prophet] says so......is/are only substantial as an argument for those who adhere to those truth claims. The commandments and practices and soteriology of the LDS church is ONLY binding on members of the LDS church.
Damien the Leper Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Is the claim of sincerity always sincere?This begs the question of whether or not any claim is sincere. It does seem that people conflate 'truth claims' with 'fact'.
Damien the Leper Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 I forgot to answer the question directly...No.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) We read in the Book of Mormon, Mormon’s admonition that…4… when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.I have also noticed other posters retricting the truth seeker with this same "Sincereity" qualifier.But what of the sincere reader, the sincere student, the truth seeker who asks with a sincere heart who comes to a different conclusion…one that leads them away from Mormonism.What was wrong with their sincere attempt? Were they not sincere also? Was it the level of their sincerity that prevented them from coming to a “Knowledge” of LDS truth claims…in other words… were they just not sincere enough? And who qualifies to judge the sincerity level of another person or the real intent of their heart other than the truth seeker themselves?I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?Such conditional statements are not at all uncommon, and can emanate from nearly any faith tradition on this planet. I recall a lecture by a Hindu Yogi in which he advised that it was less important which faith tradition one entered than that one enter it wholeheartedly, plunging in completely, without doubt. Jesus advises that "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62). Likewise, James 1:5-8,5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.Such writers are speaking from within a particular faith tradition, Moroni included. Naturally they are going to demand a true heart, same as expected by someone who plans to plight his or her troth to someone else. Otherwise, there are only rocks & shoals ahead.However, there are other, less revelatory means by which to seek the truth about this or that belief system. There is the practicality of the experimental method recommended in Alma 32. There is also the Thomistic Q&A of Alma 36, which entails intellect as well as experience, and is reminiscent of the catechetical style of the Lectures on Faith. One may also argue for the existence of God and perhaps the necessity of faith in Him via the wonders of nature (Alma 30:44), i.e., the fine-tuned universe and Goldilocks planets everywhere. Or one may apply Bayesian probability to the equation of a Book of Mormon which is on the one hand entirely preposterous, and on the other has sound historical-critical arguments in its favor -- something such an implausible book could plainly not do unless it were authentic -- "probable" in Bayesian terms being a marker of authenticity in this case, since it reflects a cumulative body of data. Take whatever epistemological method suits you. Edited July 28, 2012 by Robert F. Smith 2
Storm Rider Posted July 28, 2012 Posted July 28, 2012 We read in the Book of Mormon, Mormon’s admonition that…4… when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.I have also noticed other posters retricting the truth seeker with this same "Sincereity" qualifier.But what of the sincere reader, the sincere student, the truth seeker who asks with a sincere heart who comes to a different conclusion…one that leads them away from Mormonism.What was wrong with their sincere attempt? Were they not sincere also? Was it the level of their sincerity that prevented them from coming to a “Knowledge” of LDS truth claims…in other words… were they just not sincere enough? And who qualifies to judge the sincerity level of another person or the real intent of their heart other than the truth seeker themselves?I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?Sincerity is a universal quality that is individual in expression. Each person who sincerely seeks after truth will find it. I think the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that all are given truth in varying degrees. What we are taught is to follow God; to love him with our whole heart. Do that; sincerely seek to learn to love him and follow hiim. I believe that the LDS Church has a fulness of truth i.e. it teaches truths that will lead you to Exaltation. However, God uses each of us in the best way possible if we are willing to serve him. If someone is taken elsewhere, we are not in a position to question. The key is not to be lukewarm about it; grab hold and follow by submitting your will to your Father in Heaven. Be humble enough to realize that God knows more than you do and live by that faith. 1
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