Is Sincerity Only Sincere When It Leads To Agreement With Lds Truth Claims?

[Kenngo1969]

No. Personally, I like the approach espoused in the link below when considering the devotion of other faiths and their adherents to their convictions vis-a-vis Latter-day Saint truth claims.

http://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

[Kenngo1969]

Hiccup!

Double-post.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[cesc101]

I guess, I don't really understand what you mean.

I was a convert and for most of my life never had any expectation of becoming LDS (furthest thing from my mind, really). OTOH, I would think that someone who was raised LDS would have a strong expectation of remaining in the church.

I am convert too, as are most LDS members in Nigeria (with exception of the present generation.) My upbringing (religious background), prepared me for what i would except from a religious-writ like the book of mormon. The result then was my conversion.

OTOH, those walk out on the church after "sincere" study, also had expectations which were not met. I do not doubt their sincerity, but i am of the oppinion that - with time - they'll come around.

[cesc101]

I guess, I don't really understand what you mean.

I was a convert and for most of my life never had any expectation of becoming LDS (furthest thing from my mind, really). OTOH, I would think that someone who was raised LDS would have a strong expectation of remaining in the church.

[cesc101]

No. Personally, I like the approach espoused in the link below when considering the devotion of other faiths and their adherents to their convictions vis-a-vis Latter-day Saint truth claims.

http://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

I love this!

But still doesn't explain why people end up with different conclusions despite studying the same material "sincerely."

[CASteinman]

I love this!

But still doesn't explain why people end up with different conclusions despite studying the same material "sincerely."

We cannot judge a persons sincerity most of the time. But God can and does.

Edited July 28, 2012 by CASteinman

[Sleeper Cell]

We read in the Book of Mormon, Mormon’s admonition that…

4… when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I have also noticed other posters retricting the truth seeker with this same "Sincereity" qualifier.

But what of the sincere reader, the sincere student, the truth seeker who asks with a sincere heart who comes to a different conclusion…one that leads them away from Mormonism.What was wrong with their sincere attempt? Were they not sincere also? Was it the level of their sincerity that prevented them from coming to a “Knowledge” of LDS truth claims…in other words… were they just not sincere enough? And who qualifies to judge the sincerity level of another person or the real intent of their heart other than the truth seeker themselves?

I ask these questions sincerely…it is not my intent to cause a storm or knock the hornets’ nest as I’m often being accused of. I really want to understand… is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?

Mormon says that God will manifest the truth. He doesn’t say when. It may be immediately. It may be several months later. It may be after a lifetime of seeking. For that matter, it may not even be in this lifetime.

BTW, in addition to sincerity, Mormon’s admonition also requires real intent (which may not necessarily be the same as having a sincere heart) and faith in Christ.

And who qualifies to judge the sincerity level of another person or the real intent of their heart other than the truth seeker themselves?

God? Just a thought.

[Deborah]

OTOH, those walk out on the church after "sincere" study, also had expectations which were not met. I do not doubt their sincerity, but i am of the oppinion that - with time - they'll come around.

I wonder if this is the key to "sincere" intent. I wonder how many studying and searching for answers are expecting something that they already had received but it wasn't big enough for them. My own testimony of the Book of Mormon came very gradually and not as an all or nothing answer to a single prayer.

D&C 6:23 states "Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?" but the preceding verse is also interesting " Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things." It seems with all the great things Oliver Cowdery has already witnessed he wanted more but the answer was in this simple response.

I don't believe God will ever tell someone the church or the BOM is not true. I do believe he sometimes witholds an answer, at least the one the person expects, because he has already received an answer and ignored it or he is not ready to hear the answer.

[wenglund]

I'll leave the question between God and that person.

Ditto.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

This begs the question of whether or not any claim is sincere. It does seem that people conflate 'truth claims' with 'fact'.

Maybe I was too subtle. I was (on his track record) question the sincerity of Craig's OP.

[wenglund]

But still doesn't explain why people end up with different conclusions despite studying the same material "sincerely."

It also doesn't explain how a person can come to one conclusion at one time, and come to a different or diametrically opposed conclusion at another time.

I could be wrong, but perhaps these are the explanations Craig may be seeking with his OP.

The thing is, as with most phenomena invovling humans, I don't think that there is one answer that universally explains all the differences. In some cases the differences may be related to sincerity or the lack thereof. In other cases it may be a function of patience or not. In yet other cases it may hinge on the person's worthiness, or attentiveness, or field of experience, or perspective, or priorities, or expectations, or focus, or stage of spiritual development, etc., or various permutations thereof, and what God may deem is in each persons' best interest.

Said another way, the differences aren't a function of whether the gospel/church is what it claims to be--it is. Rather, the differences are a function of people being different--good or bad. And, since there are so many ways in which people are different, and so limited ways to determine exactly which of the differences in people may apply in a given case, it is best for us not to judge, but to leave that judgement between the person and God--as Volgadon wisely suggested.

However, this does not mean that we can't explore general or even specific plausibilites in certain cases and hypothesize various explanations for helpful consideration. We can with caution. Elsewise, we may be denying ourselves a viable avenue of assistance in our progrression.

I trust you agree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 28, 2012 by wenglund

[cesc101]

I wonder if this is the key to "sincere" intent. I wonder how many studying and searching for answers are expecting something that they already had received but it wasn't big enough for them. My own testimony of the Book of Mormon came very gradually and not as an all or nothing answer to a single prayer.

D&C 6:23 states "Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?" but the preceding verse is also interesting " Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things." It seems with all the great things Oliver Cowdery has already witnessed he wanted more but the answer was in this simple response.

I don't believe God will ever tell someone the church or the BOM is not true. I do believe he sometimes witholds an answer, at least the one the person expects, because he has already received an answer and ignored it or he is not ready to hear the answer.

hmmnn...

"Looking beyond the mark..."

[cesc101]

I trust you agree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree completely.

However i wish i could rationally explain why it happens thus, or if it is all part of God's plan

[wenglund]

I agree completely.

However i wish i could rationally explain why it happens thus, or if it is all part of God's plan

I believe it is consistent with God's plan, and that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. It is just that for some, the route to getting there may be quite circuitous and plagued with mis-steps, rebellion, beligerance, ignorance, and destructive self-indulgance.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cursor]

Is Sincerity Only Sincere When It Leads To Agreement With Lds Truth Claims?

I 'sincerely' hope not.

[Libs]

I am convert too, as are most LDS members in Nigeria (with exception of the present generation.) My upbringing (religious background), prepared me for what i would except from a religious-writ like the book of mormon. The result then was my conversion.

OTOH, those walk out on the church after "sincere" study, also had expectations which were not met. I do not doubt their sincerity, but i am of the oppinion that - with time - they'll come around.

Okay, I understand what you mean, now. Thank you for the further explanation.

I did leave, and you are correct that some of my expectations were not met.

[Buzzard]

I'll be contrary on this. If you fulfill all the requirements of Moroni's promise-pondering God's goodness all through human history, reading the BOM with the true intent to know it is true or not, and praying with sincerity-really wanting to know it's truthfullness-then the answer is yes. Always. 100 percent.

I will agree that for many people, there are stumbling blocks that keep them from recognizing the answer, such as unresolved and unrepented of major sins or unrealistic expectations for a burning bush experience. But that does not abrogate the promise.

[supersnail]

I'm not sure sincerity of heart has to do with just integrity. For example, people may really think they are being honest when they ask a question (including questions that appear designed to make others look smug--when it is many of Mormonism's critics that claim superior intellect), and maybe an MRI scan would show no difference between their brain and anyone else's, but the effort made before asking a question may evidence an objective lack commitment. It would be as if someone asked a question about anything else, but made little attempt to understand the matter themselves when they could have done so. They may really not know and may even really think they have made an attempt. If the heart has been polluted with the distractions of the world for years, this is going to have an effect on our self-evaluation and may lead to an honest over-estimation of our own seriousness when it comes to confirming the truth of the Book of Mormon.

[supersnail]

Can we, maybe, speak of a difference between "the heart" and the mind?

If a group of people--a nation as a whole--rejects the Book of Mormon, it may be that it has invested in the lies of Satan--culturally and institutionally--in ways that influence their deepest feelings and motivations. That would not mean most of its individuals are consciously dishonest. The group may lack a sincerity of heart while having all the mental states associated with honesty.

In actual fact, though, many people are cynical, and I think we all know that. If one's standards of honesty and morality are low enough, it's possible to be perfect in one's own eyes.

An issue related to group rejection of the Book of Mormon is that people can be misled by their leaders. I feel that it's significant that the Book of Mormon sometimes seems to speak to leaders or the powerful. They are partly responsible for their followers', peoples' or subordinates' rejection of the Book of Mormon, and in this way the matter of sincerity of heart can be distinguished from individuals' own integrity.

Edited July 28, 2012 by supersnail

[teddyaware]

And so someone who asks God sincerely with real intent but is then told by God that this is not His church...were they sincerely sincere? Is it even possible in your worldview for this scenario? If no, why not.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's true Restored Church, so from a testimony-bearing latter day saint's point of view, God would not inspire a sincere petitioner to believe anything otherwise. So then, If someone is sincere, carefully studies and ponders the Book of Mormon, and has real intent when they pray to the Lord for personal revelation in response to Moroni's challenge, he will receive inspired confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true. If the seemingly sincere petitioner appears to receive an answer that declares anything otherwise, there are likely three explanations for such:

1. To one degree or another, the petitioner's mind is already made up that the Book of Mormon isn't true, so there isn't enough room in his heart or mind to be willing to receive and accept the needed personal revelation. Sincerity here implies open-mindedness, or a genuine willingness to humbly and gladly stand corrected, if necessary. So he may outwardly seem to meet the necessary threshold of sincerity needed to receive an answer from the Lord, but inwardly the degree of sincerity is insufficient. The petitioner must at least hold out there is a real possibility the Book of Mormon is true.

2.ThIs apparently sincere petitioner -- who in reality isn't sincere enough, meek enough or humble enough -- as a natural consequence deficiency, obtains no affirmatory revelation from God because the conditions required for receiving such revelation are not sufficiently met. If the unprepared petitioner receives no affirmative answer, he will then likely jump to the conclusion the Book of Mormon isn't true.

3.If the insufficiently sincere petitioner believes he has received an answer to prayer that the Book of Mormon isn't true, in reality it is the workings of a false spirit, of one sort or another (from devil or fallen man), that has communicated the misinformation. The Bible warns the saints to try the "spirits." This warning indicates that counterfeit supernatural communications may be received from the spiritual realm. Because said false revelations originate from a supernatural source, the recipient may mistakenly believe the feeling of inspiration came from God; once again, the devil transforms himself into a revelatory angel of light.

[supersnail]

How many people who reject the Book of Mormon have read every word up to Moroni 10:4 with an open mind (had not already decided against it)?

Mormonism encourages love of those who haven't even read the Book of Mormon. Attempts to portray Moroni 10:4 and Mormonism by extension as judgmental are misguided.

If there were a book containing obvious falsity and a statement like Moroni 10:4, few would allege and complain that the statement is judgmental, because the whole book could be dismissed and the statement could be ridiculed, rather than interrogated as Moroni 10:4 is, here and elsewhere. It seems the reason Moroni 10:4 bothers critics is that the rest of the book is convincing to many people.

Surely Moroni 10:4 cannot hurt the feelings of those who are already adamant in their belief that the Book of Mormon is false.

Edited July 28, 2012 by supersnail

[Calm]

I will agree that for many people, there are stumbling blocks that keep them from recognizing the answer, such as unresolved and unrepented of major sins or unrealistic expectations for a burning bush experience.

Do you believe there may be stumbling blocks that are not the individual's fault (perhaps a teaching of a parent or even a health issue) or do you believe all such stumbling blocks are a result of individual responsibility?

[Buzzard]

Do you believe there may be stumbling blocks that are not the individual's fault (perhaps a teaching of a parent or even a health issue) or do you believe all such stumbling blocks are a result of individual responsibility?

Parental teachings and upbringing, sure. Kept the Lamanites firmly on the wrong side for several hundred years. Health issues? Not sure what you mean, unless you mean that suffering can make you bitter and not really open to an answer.

I think that the stumbling blocks really prevent us from fully taking Moroni up on his promise. Anytime we do what the Lord asks us to do, he has said himself he is bound to fulfill his words.

[Calm]

With health issues, I am thinking of mental and emotional disorders or states that may interfere with feeling the Spirit or interpreting the Spirit correctly.

Edited July 29, 2012 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

is Sincere ONLY Sincere when it leads one to accept LDS truth claims?

If you can fake sincerity you've got it made!