Learning That Joseph Practiced Plural Marriage

[Tacenda]

I don't think that's exactly the problem you are having.

I think the problem is that you feel it is hypersexual, immoral and unbecoming of anyone who would claim to be spiritual. I bet there are lots of people who would feel the way you do. I believe that some of those people around Joseph who apostatized over this issue felt it was disgusting and intolerable -- so this has been a complaint right from the start.

As for a command -- a man who was already married and whose married brother died was commanded to take that man's wife and marry her. Not only that, he was also commanded to have children by her if possible.

But I am confused. How does plural marriage make God unjust in your view?

That reference in the Bible seems to be a lot more just than marrying a 14 yr. old or anothers new bride and then being sent on a mission. I know this sounds to you that I'm picking & choosing according to what works for me, that may or may not be my downfall, maybe the Lord doesn't speak to some of his daughters any longer because he skipped me, when it came to revelation.

[why me]

That reference in the Bible seems to be a lot more just than marrying a 14 yr. old or anothers new bride and then being sent on a mission. I know this sounds to you that I'm picking & choosing according to what works for me, that may or may not be my downfall, maybe the Lord doesn't speak to some of his daughters any longer because he skipped me, when it came to revelation.

If you ignore the spiritual experiences and give critic interpretations as you just did...well....I think you may know where you are heading. Why is it so difficult to believe the spiritual experiences of the women involved?

[why me]

maybe the Lord doesn't speak to some of his daughters any longer because he skipped me, when it came to revelation.

But you do have the revelations of the women involved. Isn't that enough? Would you like a revelation that the revelations that these women received were true?

Here we have the Kimball's:

Helen Mar Kimball wrote of her parents:

My mother had noticed a change in his [Heber's] looks and appearance [since the command to practice plural marriage], and when she enquired the cause, he tried to evade her question, saying it was only her imagination, or that he was not feeling well, etc. But it so worked upon his mind that his anxious and haggard looks betrayed him daily and hourly, and finally his misery became so unbearable that it was impossible to control his feelings. He became sick in body, but his mental wretchedness was too great to allow of his retiring at night, and instead of going to bed he would walk the floor; and the agony of his mind was so terrible that he would wring his hands and weep, beseeching the Lord with his whole soul to be merciful and reveal to his wife the cause of his great sorrow, for he himself could not break his vow of secrecy. His anguish and my mother's, were indescribable and when unable to endure it longer, she retired to her room, where with a broken and contrite heart, she poured out her grief to [God]. . . . My father's heart was raised at the same time in supplication, and while pleading as one would plead for life, the vision of her mind was opened, and she saw the principle of Celestial Marriage illustrated in all its beauty and glory, together with the great exaltation and honor it would confer upon her in that immortal and celestial sphere if she would but accept it and stand in her place by her husband's side. She was also shown the woman he had taken to wife, and contemplated with joy the vast and boundless love and union which this order would bring about, as well as the increase of kingdoms, power, and glory extending throughout the eternities, worlds without end. Her soul was satisfied and filled with the Spirit of God. With a countenance beaming with joy she returned to my father, saying, "Heber, what you have kept from me the Lord has shown me."

She related the scene to me and to many others, and told me she never saw so happy a man as father was, when she described the vision and told him she was satisfied and knew that it was from God. She covenanted to stand by him and honor the principle, which covenant she faithfully kept, and though her trials were often heavy and grievous to bear, her integrity was unflinching to the end.

http://pt.fairmormon...es_and_families

What should I say to this woman if she were alive today? Your vision was false as was your husband's?

Edited July 24, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

But you do have the revelations of the women involved. Isn't that enough? Would you like a revelation that the revelations that these women received were true?

Here we have the Kimball's:

Helen Mar Kimball wrote of her parents:

My mother had noticed a change in his [Heber's] looks and appearance [since the command to practice plural marriage], and when she enquired the cause, he tried to evade her question, saying it was only her imagination, or that he was not feeling well, etc. But it so worked upon his mind that his anxious and haggard looks betrayed him daily and hourly, and finally his misery became so unbearable that it was impossible to control his feelings. He became sick in body, but his mental wretchedness was too great to allow of his retiring at night, and instead of going to bed he would walk the floor; and the agony of his mind was so terrible that he would wring his hands and weep, beseeching the Lord with his whole soul to be merciful and reveal to his wife the cause of his great sorrow, for he himself could not break his vow of secrecy. His anguish and my mother's, were indescribable and when unable to endure it longer, she retired to her room, where with a broken and contrite heart, she poured out her grief to [God]. . . . My father's heart was raised at the same time in supplication, and while pleading as one would plead for life, the vision of her mind was opened, and she saw the principle of Celestial Marriage illustrated in all its beauty and glory, together with the great exaltation and honor it would confer upon her in that immortal and celestial sphere if she would but accept it and stand in her place by her husband's side. She was also shown the woman he had taken to wife, and contemplated with joy the vast and boundless love and union which this order would bring about, as well as the increase of kingdoms, power, and glory extending throughout the eternities, worlds without end. Her soul was satisfied and filled with the Spirit of God. With a countenance beaming with joy she returned to my father, saying, "Heber, what you have kept from me the Lord has shown me."

She related the scene to me and to many others, and told me she never saw so happy a man as father was, when she described the vision and told him she was satisfied and knew that it was from God. She covenanted to stand by him and honor the principle, which covenant she faithfully kept, and though her trials were often heavy and grievous to bear, her integrity was unflinching to the end.

http://pt.fairmormon...es_and_families

What should I say to this woman if she were alive today? Your vision was false as was your husband's?

This is something that will just take alot of faith on my part, my sins are different than your sins. Wasn't there a talk given recently about everybody sinning differently? Let's move on, I want to stay in your good graces if possible.

[why me]

This is something that will just take alot of faith on my part, my sins are different than your sins. Wasn't there a talk given recently about everybody sinning differently? Let's move on, I want to stay in your good graces if possible.

I'm a sinner for sure. No question about it. But I need to take into account the women involved and their spiritual experiences but I am still sinning by doing things in my own life that are sins. But these spiritual experiences of these people involved in plural marriage seem real and convincing.

Here is something written in Ruth Sayer's obituary. She was married but also sealed to Joseph Smith:

Ruth’s 1884 obituary gives a glimpse of her demeanor: “Tall and erect in figure; a countenance always beaming with human kindness...She was a woman of brilliant conversational powers...She was never tired of dwelling upon Gospel themes and the days of Joseph and Hyrum.

Her and her husband eventually moved to Utah from boston to be together with old friends in 1849.

Edited July 24, 2012 by why me

[Scott Lloyd]

It just dawned on me why I have a problem with polygamy. It's because I don't believe it was a commandment to Joseph. I believe he may have thought it was. This IMO is where he was fallible and acting as a man. In order for me to believe in a just God, this is how I must believe. That is probably why I've struggled to move past this subject for so long. And please, if anyone has a bone to pick, please CFR a scripture where the Lord commands it in the Bible please.

Are you saying God's word is found exclusively in the Bible, then?

[Calm]

anothers new bride and then being sent on a mission

Who are you referring to...just want to be clear on this.

[CASteinman]

That reference in the Bible seems to be a lot more just than marrying a 14 yr. old or anothers new bride and then being sent on a mission. I know this sounds to you that I'm picking & choosing according to what works for me, that may or may not be my downfall, maybe the Lord doesn't speak to some of his daughters any longer because he skipped me, when it came to revelation.

Don't be entirely quick to believe you can get not revelation! I found, on my mission, that many people just do not know how it works. It can take some guidance and patience. You may find, once you learn how, that you have been led by the Spirit before and not realized it.

I still don't understand how polygamy shows some injustice with regard to God. I can even describe a system of plural marriage that would, if run well, be for the benefit of people generally and women and children in particular.

[CASteinman]

This is something that will just take alot of faith on my part, my sins are different than your sins. Wasn't there a talk given recently about everybody sinning differently? Let's move on, I want to stay in your good graces if possible.

I don't think its a sin to have doubts about plural marriage. I base this on what Joseph said to people who had problems accepting it. I can't recall him telling people that their doubts were sin. Seems to me it took Brigham Young and some others a long time to come to accept it.

[Kenngo1969]

It just dawned on me why I have a problem with polygamy. It's because I don't believe it was a commandment to Joseph. I believe he may have thought it was. This IMO is where he was fallible and acting as a man. In order for me to believe in a just God, this is how I must believe. That is probably why I've struggled to move past this subject for so long. And please, if anyone has a bone to pick, please CFR a scripture where the Lord commands it in the Bible please.

Have you seen any angels with drawn swords lately?

[Deborah]

What do you mean by "genuine"? As in you think that anyone who loses a testimony did not have a genuine one in the first place?

One that is borne by the Holy Spirit and based on that and not on one's interpretation about what may or may not have happened in the past.

In any case the point of my comment was that not everyone who gets faced with things which cause doubts choose to let those doubts take them away from the things they have received a testimony of. In some cases we have had to table information until we could get an understanding of what the truth is. History is a very tricky thing. It is based on the interpretation of the gatherer of facts, and depends on how accurate and complete those facts are and requires context, which most people who lose their testimony over history do not have.

[Tacenda]

Who are you referring to...just want to be clear on this.

Henry B. Jacobs, Zina Huntington Jacobs husband.

[why me]

Have you seen any angels with drawn swords lately?

There had to be a reason for Joseph to suddenly begin plural marriage again. I certainly don't buy into the sex crazed idea. The sword as mentioned by joseph seems to confirm bible experinces also with the sword. I still don't know how people can discount the testimony of the women involved and their spiritual experiences. I think that those individuals who ignore these experiences are doing these women a great disservice.

[why me]

Henry B. Jacobs, Zina Huntington Jacobs husband.

What do you think about the spiritual experiences of these women when they asked for confirmation of the principle through prayer? Should we ignore their spiritual experience after they prayed about it and got a powerful witness from heaven that it was from god?

[why me]

Henry B. Jacobs, Zina Huntington Jacobs husband.

I found this:

In Nauvoo, Zina married Henry Bailey Jacobs, of whom she bore two sons. Around this same time, she was sealed for eternity to Joseph Smith with Henry’s approval. Her husband, Henry, served many missions, but moved on to California without Zina. Many of Joseph’s wives were given to Brigham Young, upon his death, so Zina joined Brigham’s family, having been sealed to him for time only, to the SL Valley. On the way west, she gave birth to her second son. (I can’t explain how all this worked, in fact, I left out some details, because I couldn’t believe it, but this is her history, and I am merely reporting what I found.)

http://www.ldswomenofgod.com/?p=1058

Someone got their signals crossed. We need to investigate this further.

And then I found this:

Zina Huntington

Zina's brother Dimick encouraged her to accept Joseph's proposal of plural marriage. However, she refused. What changed her mind? Zina recorded: I searched the scripture & buy [by] humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church, I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain [again] to be looked uppon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise conience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world… http://pt.fairmormon.org/Polygamy/Divine_manifestations_to_plural_wives_and_families Should I challenge her spiritual experience?

Edited July 24, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

I found this:

In Nauvoo, Zina married Henry Bailey Jacobs, of whom she bore two sons. Around this same time, she was sealed for eternity to Joseph Smith with Henry’s approval. Her husband, Henry, served many missions, but moved on to California without Zina. Many of Joseph’s wives were given to Brigham Young, upon his death, so Zina joined Brigham’s family, having been sealed to him for time only, to the SL Valley. On the way west, she gave birth to her second son. (I can’t explain how all this worked, in fact, I left out some details, because I couldn’t believe it, but this is her history, and I am merely reporting what I found.)

http://www.ldswomenofgod.com/?p=1058

Someone got their signals crossed. We need to investigate this further.

And then I found this:

Zina Huntington

Zina's brother Dimick encouraged her to accept Joseph's proposal of plural marriage. However, she refused. What changed her mind? Zina recorded: I searched the scripture & buy [by] humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church, I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain [again] to be looked uppon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise conience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world… http://pt.fairmormon.org/Polygamy/Divine_manifestations_to_plural_wives_and_families Should I challenge her spiritual experience?

I was just answering Cals question, not bringing up more to debate about. Why Me I don't discount these women's testmonies of the principle. I'm just having trouble that it is commanded by the God whom I believe him to be. In the Bible they weren't commanded to take concubines.

[Tacenda]

Are you saying God's word is found exclusively in the Bible, then?

The Bible is the reference Joseph used and by reading it I'm assuming it lead him to inquire of the Lord if he should live polygamy.

[CASteinman]

What do you mean by "genuine"? As in you think that anyone who loses a testimony did not have a genuine one in the first place?

I mean one that is brought into the person in an almost mystical way through the ministrations of the Holy Ghost instilling upon the fiber of your soul the insight that It is True.

I do kinda think it is not possible to lose this without some effort on your part -- even if that effort is a sort of negative effort, such as not attending Church.

Edited July 24, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

The Bible is the reference Joseph used and by reading it I'm assuming it lead him to inquire of the Lord if he should live polygamy.

That seems to be exactly the process according to the revelation -- with one exception. He did not ask if he should. He asked why it was permitted in times past by Holy Men and received the instruction to live it.

Edited July 24, 2012 by CASteinman

[Tacenda]

That seems to be exactly the process according to the revelation -- with one exception. He did not ask if he should. He asked why it was permitted in times past by Holy Men and received the instruction to live it.

That's right, in my mind , I keep thinking he asked. Thanks for the correction.

[KevinG]

I had a genuine testimony. I wasn't looking for an excuse. I am still trying to work through it and in a way looking for a reason to stay. Your statement here is something I've heard before. It is empty.

I sincerely suggest you start with God the eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and move on from there. Next ask them for an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is authorized of them and where you should be. All the rest is details to be sorted out later. I went through a recent period of inactivity because I was offended and getting back to the basics (scriptures, prayer, etc.) is what brought me back.

My anger is not directed towards those who struggle but those who take advantage of them by crowing and disseminating every controversial thing out of context to knock Saints from their place.

[ERayR]

It just dawned on me why I have a problem with polygamy. It's because I don't believe it was a commandment to Joseph. I believe he may have thought it was. This IMO is where he was fallible and acting as a man. In order for me to believe in a just God, this is how I must believe. That is probably why I've struggled to move past this subject for so long. And please, if anyone has a bone to pick, please CFR a scripture where the Lord commands it in the Bible please.

At this point it is irrelevant whether Joseph was commanded to or not. It is in the past and I have never seen anyone who could change the past. What you have to do now is decide whether the gospel of Jesus Christ as promulgated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. The only way to do that is to get a personal revelation through the Holy Ghost confirming it is true.

[KevinG]

Muy wife had the privilege of reading Zina Huntington Jacobs Young (now Smith) journals shared by a descendant. The often promulgated story of Henry being sent off on a mission so she could be married to someone else is false. It doesn't stop the critics from using it to scare people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[ERayR]

That reference in the Bible seems to be a lot more just than marrying a 14 yr. old or anothers new bride and then being sent on a mission. I know this sounds to you that I'm picking & choosing according to what works for me, that may or may not be my downfall, maybe the Lord doesn't speak to some of his daughters any longer because he skipped me, when it came to revelation.

Tacenda we have covered this before but will do it again as you still seem to be conflating marriage with sealing. They are not the same.

The Lord is still speaking to you but you are too busy absorbing the critics misinformation.

[why me]

Muy wife had the privilege of reading Zina Huntington Jacobs Young (now Smith) journals shared by a descendant. The often promulgated story of Henry being sent off on a mission so she could be married to someone else is false. It doesn't stop the critics from using it to scare people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is correct. Zina had henry's permission. And of course, Zina had her own spiritual experience about the practice. What some people seem not to understand if that most of these women would have kept to the no answer if they did not have these spiritual experiences.