Learning That Joseph Practiced Plural Marriage

[KevinG]

Even if true, it always amazes me that people expect lds early leaders to always say the right thing. Those poor people cannot be human. And it also amazes me that critics make it a career to skim for quotations from the early leaders to cast doubt in members minds. As I have said, I think that many testimonies are very fragile if they are influenced by such things.

This is a good idea for coming full circle on this thread.

I would warn the Saints that allowing shocking tidbits about the historical Saints to overtake the bulk of evidence surrounding who we really were and are is a danger. Allowing it to keep us from receiving revelation directly from God on the matter of our salvation and covenants with Him is more than a danger it is damning to ourselves and others we might teach.

While I love to dabble in the history of the Saints most of what the critics use to shock members out of activity and faithfulness doesn't hold a candle to the plan of salvation in importance to our eternal souls.

[why me]

There are others I've noticed that you or your comrades have been giving plenty of patience to, it seems to me, for worse things, but if the mods would like me to shut up, I will, I'd still love reading the comments and would be willing to be a silent participant.

I think that you are doing fine. But it does seem that you mind is made up. You have been influenced by critic sites, random quotations and yet, ignore the women who were involved. It would seem to me that a much stronger case would be made if these women complained about Joseph treating them like cows. Or if they felt used and abused. But it seems that this was not the case. I only see spiritual confirmations and blessings. And I think that these women would agree with me.

[why me]

While I love to dabble in the history of the Saints most of what the critics use to shock members out of activity and faithfulness doesn't hold a candle to the plan of salvation in importance to our eternal souls.

Nor to ignore the spiritual confirmations of the women involved. To ignore their spiritual confirmations does a disservice to these women. It paints them as dumb. These women were of frontier blood and not push overs and they did struggle over the principle until that spiritual confirmation occurred.

[Tacenda]

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Edited July 24, 2012 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

I think that this is the problem with cherry picking quotations from antimormon sites. No context just words. Do you really believe that an apostle would make such statement in seriousness to groups of saints? What came before and after these statements and what was the context in which they were said? But here is the crux of the matter: the women who were married or sealed to Joseph Smith had spiritual confirmations of the principle. It had nothing to do with heber and what he may have or may not have said.

I would hate for someone to judge me based on a random quotation placed on a computer. A life is worth more than a random quotation placed in a computer years after it was said or written. If I wanted perfection in men and in women I will be sorely disappointed.

Why me would you please delete the post that this was attached to? I don't feel I want to bring anti quotes in, sorry and thank you.

[KevinG]

Tacenda I think it is OK for someone bringing materials (anti or pro) here to discuss them and gain another point of view as long as they don't keep acting ignorant on an asked and answered subject. What I have a problem with is someone who is using those materials to shock others or to browbeat.

The counsel to avoid getting all your information from hostile sites is wise but that does not mean you cannot bring things here that trouble you and try to get perspective.

Having said that the most important thing you can do for your salvation is have faith in God and no amount of internet discussion will replace that crucial component of your religious journey.

[ERayR]

There are others I've noticed that you or your comrades have been giving plenty of patience to, it seems to me, for worse things, but if the mods would like me to shut up, I will, I'd still love reading the comments and would be willing to be a silent participant.

I wasn't asking you to shut up. I was just explaining to Zeta Flux where your posting information seems to be coming from. By all means post away just don't get so offended at opposition.

[Tacenda]

I wasn't asking you to shut up. I was just explaining to Zeta Flux where your posting information seems to be coming from. By all means post away just don't get so offended at opposition.

I'm not offended, and I don't want to offend. Why do I keep bringing this stuff up again and again, I guess I've been exposed so much to things on the internet and it totally did a number on my testimony. And this board keeps me in check. But like a rebellious child I keep bringing stuff up. But I was asked for a CFR on the Kimball quote. I should have left it all out. I was trying to show that women were more property back then and not only in the LDS church. So I guess I was attributing that mindset as to why a woman would do what she is told is right. But OTH as Why Me has said over and over to me, they had spiritual witness to the correctness of living the principle. I guess it's hard for me to understand sometimes.

[Tacenda]

I don't think so. I think that it is run by the EV's. Such random cherry picking showing the church is a bad way would not be a mormon owned site. But I could be wrong. Like I said, such cherry picking quotation out of context is a critic strategy. It is meant to cast doubt. And as you know...it does.

You're right , I checked the home page and it did say something to that effect. Could you please delete the site. It seems to list alot of topics with anti slants.

[why me]

But OTH as Why Me has said over and over to me, they had spiritual witness to the correctness of living the principle. I guess it's hard for me to understand sometimes.

I think that it would be more correct to say that they received a witness that the principle was from god. But no one practicing the principle was perfect and always said the right thing.

[tyler90az]

This might be a good time to raise an idea. Why don't missionaries tell investigators about FAIR Etc and tell them if they stumble across anti look at that also? Atleast if that happens, when they are confronted with ANTI, they wll have a place to look that is also pro Mormon.

[why me]

You're right , I checked the home page and it did say something to that effect. Could you please delete the site. It seems to list alot of topics with anti slants.

The site is a wolf in sheep's clothing. But you can see what they attempt to do? It is not surprising that you were influenced. Many have been and many will still be influenced. These quotations are placed on many critic sites.

[why me]

This might be a good time to raise an idea. Why don't missionaries tell investigators about FAIR Etc and tell them if they stumble across anti look at that also? Atleast if that happens, when they are confronted with ANTI, they wll have a place to look that is also pro Mormon.

You may find this unbelievable but many missionaries do not know about FAIR. However, FAIR has been mentioned in the church news and in the mormontimes. But....many still do not know. This is also true of the members. We need to get the word out there.

[ERayR]

I'm not offended, and I don't want to offend. Why do I keep bringing this stuff up again and again, I guess I've been exposed so much to things on the internet and it totally did a number on my testimony. And this board keeps me in check. But like a rebellious child I keep bringing stuff up. But I was asked for a CFR on the Kimball quote. I should have left it all out. I was trying to show that women were more property back then and not only in the LDS church. So I guess I was attributing that mindset as to why a woman would do what she is told is right. But OTH as Why Me has said over and over to me, they had spiritual witness to the correctness of living the principle. I guess it's hard for me to understand sometimes.

First I am not trying to be obnoxious but on a lot of what you are posting it has been asked and answered. To run around and around the bush makes no sense to me. You seem to accept the answers but by the time we get to the other side of the circle you have found something else from an anti site that goes over the same thing.

You have asked a lot of this and post that you can see the answer. I can only guess the reason you keep bringing it up is that you keep going to the anti sites or that you didn't really believe the answer and only said you did but I don't know why you do.

Pioneer woman were not sheep. They didn't just follow their husbands. They walked walked beside them. Their decisions were made for a lot of the same reasons we make decisions today. Latter Day Saint women came because they and their husband had received a testimony that it was right. In some places and by some men, women were not treated well, just like today.

[Deborah]

While I love to dabble in the history of the Saints most of what the critics use to shock members out of activity and faithfulness doesn't hold a candle to the plan of salvation in importance to our eternal souls.

"Dabble" is the key. You know, the little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I find the more I learn, the more everything fits in and the fewer questions I have. Many of the scholars involved with the Joseph Smith Papers project have expressed this same idea and they are more convinced than ever of the truth claims of the church.

Some positive sources:

Truman Madsen's lectures on Joseph Smith

The Joseph Smith Papers Project documentary (on BYU channel and on DVD).

I've also been watching Saints at War and History of the Saints and so many little tidbits that increase knowledge and testimony at the same time.

[why me]

Why me would you please delete the post that this was attached to? I don't feel I want to bring anti quotes in, sorry and thank you.

Okay, it is done.

[USU78]

In those days women didn't have near the rights women do now. I'm not on my computer now or I'd dig it up. There is a statement from I believe Heber Kimball saying women are property much like cattle. It can be found in church history somewhere.

That would be an invention of Arthur Conan Doyle from A Study in Scarlet: http://www.millennialstar.org/sherlock-holmes-first-villain-brigham-young/

There is even a footnote in the story in which Sir Arthur claims that Heber Kimball calls women “heifers” — only cattle to be bred.

[volgadon]

That would be an invention of Arthur Conan Doyle from A Study in Scarlet: http://www.millennia...brigham-young/

I actually mentioned A Study in Scarlet, though not that exact quote, in an EQ lesson I gave a couple of weeks ago. Used it to explain popular conceptions of Mormons in the 19th to 20th centuries. It helped flesh out the context for lesson 13 in the George Albert Smith manual, context which is only alluded to, never made explicit.

[CASteinman]

That would be an invention of Arthur Conan Doyle from A Study in Scarlet: http://www.millennia...brigham-young/

If I recall correctly, Doyle came to regret his harsh treatment of Mormons after visiting them. At least, that is as I recall it.

[CASteinman]

Joseph Smith married these women in a ceremony outside the temple. He didn't recognize that the law of the land was above his marriages to other men's wives. In the church geneology it's marriage not sealings.

A couple of things might help here.

• Eray is right that many of these marriages were merely technical sealings as far as we can tell.
  
• In Church genealogies there is no distinction between sealings and marriages because they were marriage sealings. This does not change their nature. They were technical sealings with the intent of binding women to Joseph so that they could have blessings appropriate for them. They were not marriages in the sense of living together, sleeping together or having a home together. They may have hardly seen each other. I suspect Elizabeth Rollings Lightner is one of these -- and I suspect Mr. Lightner, her husband was aware of the sealing and did not disapprove.
  
• The Nauvoo Charter was a special instrument and this means that the the law of the land was the Law of Nauvoo. (Not many people realize this).
  

Edited July 25, 2012 by CASteinman

[volgadon]

If I recall correctly, Doyle came to regret his harsh treatment of Mormons after visiting them. At least, that is as I recall it.

You might be thinking of Charles Dic,kens.

[Pahoran]

That would be an invention of Arthur Conan Doyle from A Study in Scarlet: http://www.millennia...brigham-young/

IIRC, Ann Eliza Webb Dee Young Denning, who also gave the world that particular libel, predates Conan Doyle.

Regards,

Pahoran

[CASteinman]

But like a rebellious child I keep bringing stuff up.

I don't think its like a rebellious child to bring things up that are troubling you. But why do you seek them out? Are you becoming addicted to the bad feelings they bring out in you?

I was trying to show that women were more property back then and not only in the LDS church.

I think most posters were trying to show you that this was not the case, at least for Mormons. Please don't be so quick to pull the trigger on the Mormons! They are not bad people -- not in the past and not now. The anti-Mormons would love for you to believe demonic things. But ask yourself, does this stuff carry the Spirit of God with it? Or is it a harsh and bad spirit?

[CASteinman]

You might be thinking of Charles Dic,kens.

Actually, this: http://www.adherents.com/lit/article_Doyle.html

[volgadon]

Actually, this: http://www.adherents...icle_Doyle.html

Wonderful, thank you.