Libs Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I might have an answer for you that would help. But maybe not. Can you be specific about what it is that you find repugnant? What is it that you think to yourself "This is awful". "This is unholy" or whatever it is. And are those things related to the whole business or some detail incidental to it?The two things that make me think "this is awful" are the ages of some of the young girls, and that he married/was sealed to, already married women.
Libs Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 ...and that is okay since it is, or at least ought to be, entirely irrelevant to you today fully progressing towards Christ.Thanks, -Wade Englund-Irrelevant? Maybe.
CASteinman Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 The two things that make me think "this is awful" are the ages of some of the young girls, and that he married/was sealed to, already married women.Oh. I suspect I cannot help you.. as I believe you have almost assuredly read the apologetic materials in this regard. I have a thought about the concept of plural marriage that I think might make some sense but only in a society where the leaders were thoroughly led by the Spirit. But that concept would not help you with these two issues.If you have not read or are not familiar with the apologetics materials on the other matters -- especially with regard to typical marriage ages, dynastic marriages, sealings for eternity vs marriage for time and Joseph Smith's efforts to be very obedient --- but perhaps a delayed obedience, I would be happy to review those with you. But I suspect you know them.Sorry!
ERayR Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I am not inclined to criticize Joseph Smith, these days. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, so I know that God used him in some way. Just not sure polygamy was a part of that, but since I don't know, for sure, I am not going to go off the deep end, over this issue.Smart move. It's not that I don't have an interest in these issues. I tend to try and not to get too worked up things that don't affect my salvation at this time. Since I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true and I have a testimony the gospel as taught by the CoJCoLDS is true and since Joseph Smith brought us both I believe he was a prophet.
ERayR Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Yes, I have taken that into consideration. I still find the whole business kind of repugnant and difficult to accept.Isn't it amazing how our environment affects our emotions. Looking at polygamy from this side of the 20th century in US America and in light of the abuses involved with FLDS and not needing or seeking a testimony of it from God gives one a different view than was recorded from the women spoken of by whyme. 1
ERayR Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 The two things that make me think "this is awful" are the ages of some of the young girls, and that he married/was sealed to, already married women.As CAStienman as said I can't help you with this either but I suspect a lot of the problem you have is your perspective from this side of the 20th century vs a perspective from the other side of the 20th century.
Libs Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Oh. I suspect I cannot help you.. as I believe you have almost assuredly read the apologetic materials in this regard. I have a thought about the concept of plural marriage that I think might make some sense but only in a society where the leaders were thoroughly led by the Spirit. But that concept would not help you with these two issues.If you have not read or are not familiar with the apologetics materials on the other matters -- especially with regard to typical marriage ages, dynastic marriages, sealings for eternity vs marriage for time and Joseph Smith's efforts to be very obedient --- but perhaps a delayed obedience, I would be happy to review those with you. But I suspect you know them.Sorry!Yes, I have done some reading on it. Some of it is plausible, I suppose. At least, it was plausible enough to take away some of the anger I experienced over this (when I first heard about it). Unfortunately, it was compared to Warren Jeffs, during a time when he was high profile....and it was very easy to jump to some very bad conclusions.
Libs Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Smart move. It's not that I don't have an interest in these issues. I tend to try and not to get too worked up things that don't affect my salvation at this time. Since I have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true and I have a testimony the gospel as taught by the CoJCoLDS is true and since Joseph Smith brought us both I believe he was a prophet.Common sense would have you think that I had already come to that conclusion about Joseph (that he was a prophet)...and I had, intellectually.....but, I didn't really know much about him, when I joined the church, so finding out these things, had me second guessing all kinds of things, I thought I already "knew".
thesometimesaint Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Libs:There is lots in the Bible that offends my 21st Century sensibilities, but I still manage to be a Christian. Take what is good, and put the rest on the back burner.
Deborah Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I still find the whole business kind of repugnant and difficult to accept.LOL. My DIL feels the same and she is a faithful temple goer and very active in genealogy research. She doesn't even like to talk about it. I just laugh at her because I think such repugnant feelings will disappear in the eternities when we see and understand the true nature of the family and can see into the minds and hearts of those in the early church who were tried with such a principle, and it was a trial and a test for them. I got a testimony of the principle while in college because of the experiences of a widowed male friend.
Tacenda Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 LOL. My DIL feels the same and she is a faithful temple goer and very active in genealogy research. She doesn't even like to talk about it. I just laugh at her because I think such repugnant feelings will disappear in the eternities when we see and understand the true nature of the family and can see into the minds and hearts of those in the early church who were tried with such a principle, and it was a trial and a test for them. I got a testimony of the principle while in college because of the experiences of a widowed male friend.When I first learned of Joseph Smith's polygamy, I emailed my sister's in law to get feedback, and said even though I struggled I had a hope and a desire to still believe and a husband that knew his scriptures well and could help me through. One of my sis in laws was like Libs, myself, and your daughter in law, Deborah. She emailed back to me, which helped believe it or not, that all those men were dirty old men and she found it disgusting. I didn't go into detail about Joseph Smith's so I still don't know if she knows the full story. But this sis in law, is a very active temple goer, volunteers at the Mt. Timpanogus temple with planting flowers, weeding etc on the grounds. And this same sis in law will be found in the temple when we all go to St. George for an adult only vacation, she'll spend the whole day in the temple while the other sis in laws are out shopping and the husbands golfing.
KevinG Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I am not so worried that the Saints will accept or reject the principle (and all its attendant requirements) in the next life as I am Saints (and potential Saints) who will find God's commandments to Joseph and other early Saints a stumbling block to gaining or keeping a testimony of Christ and His work. There is a huge gulf between "I know about polygamy and am uncomfortable/don't know if I could live it" and "Polygamy causes me to doubt Joseph's role as a Prophet, Seer and Revelator".I find it shameful that the very descendants of those practicing the principle will bad mouth their own ancestors and the practices they were commended to engage in. 2
Jaybear Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 LOL. My DIL feels the same and she is a faithful temple goer and very active in genealogy research. She doesn't even like to talk about it. I just laugh at her because I think such repugnant feelings will disappear in the eternities when we see and understand the true nature of the family and can see into the minds and hearts of those in the early church who were tried with such a principle, and it was a trial and a test for them. I got a testimony of the principle while in college because of the experiences of a widowed male friend.That doesn't strike me something to laugh about.
Jaybear Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I find it shameful that the very descendants of those practicing the principle will bad mouth their own ancestors and the practices they were commended to engage in.Not everyone shares your belief that God commanded the practice. I suspect that those members who don't like thinking or talking about the practice haven't come to that point, and are concerned that learning more details about the practice may nudge them off the fence in a direction they would rather not go.
Jaybear Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Libs:There is lots in the Bible that offends my 21st Century sensibilities, but I still manage to be a Christian. Take what is good, and put the rest on the back burner.Sounds like you are describing a cafeteria. Edited July 30, 2012 by Jaybear
Deborah Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 That doesn't strike me something to laugh about.Well, I can't help it Jaybear if you have no sense of humor. It is funny because these women get uptight about something we are not called to practice and for which they apparently have little understanding. A lot of it I find comes down to jealousy. They simply don't want to share their husbands. But jealousy will not be part of the equation in the eternities. Also as someone already pointed out we are looking at the practice through present day eyes and prejudices and in a society that relishes sex and pornography. That causes a very different viewpoint than the early pioneers would have experienced. 3
ERayR Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Not everyone shares your belief that God commanded the practice. I suspect that those members who don't like thinking or talking about the practice haven't come to that point, and are concerned that learning more details about the practice may nudge them off the fence in a direction they would rather not go.While they are sitting there perhaps they might come to a realization that were it not for their ancestors they wouldn't be or at least would not be who they are. 1
wenglund Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Not everyone shares your belief that God commanded the practice. I suspect that those members who don't like thinking or talking about the practice haven't come to that point, and are concerned that learning more details about the practice may nudge them off the fence in a direction they would rather not go.You can suspect a lot of things that have little or nothing to do with you and about which you are not all that informed and which aren't really pertinent in the here-and-now. It is what busy-bodies do--particularly in relation to the objects of their obsessions/prejudices.Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
KevinG Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Not everyone shares your belief that God commanded the practice. I suspect that those members who don't like thinking or talking about the practice haven't come to that point, and are concerned that learning more details about the practice may nudge them off the fence in a direction they would rather not go.Not everyone believes Joseph was a prophet until the day of his martyrdom. Faithful Saints should. 1
Jaybear Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Well, I can't help it Jaybear if you have no sense of humor. It is funny because these women get uptight about something we are not called to practice and for which they apparently have little understanding. A lot of it I find comes down to jealousy. They simply don't want to share their husbands. But jealousy will not be part of the equation in the eternities. Also as someone already pointed out we are looking at the practice through present day eyes and prejudices and in a society that relishes sex and pornography. That causes a very different viewpoint than the early pioneers would have experienced.What reason do you have to believe that polygamy to less abhorant to women in the 1830/40s than to women today? Smith went to extreme measures to keep the practice a secret for a reason.Not everyone believes Joseph was a prophet until the day of his martyrdom. Faithful Saints should.Does that mean you disagree with what I wrote? Edited July 30, 2012 by Jaybear
KevinG Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Struggling to understand and publicly denigrating our forefathers (and mothers) are two entirely different things.
ERayR Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 What reason do you have to believe that polygamy to less abhorant to women in the 1830/40s than to women today? Smith went to extreme measures to keep the practice a secret for a reason.Their diaries and writings. 1
Deborah Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Their diaries and writings.As well as the fact that once it was on-going for many years it was just as difficult for the saints to abandon it. 2
KevinG Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I'm still wondering where the assertion that Polygamy is abhorrent to women (coming from a man) is coming from. I hesitate to speak for an entire gender - especially one that's not my own.
Libs Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I just want to reiterate that my problem or concern really had nothing to do with polygamy, per se. I knew about the practice, before I joined the church. Most people are aware that Mormons practiced polygamy. My concerns arose out of the specifics of Joseph Smith's polygamy (young girls and married women).
Recommended Posts