Learning That Joseph Practiced Plural Marriage

[ERayR]

I just want to reiterate that my problem or concern really had nothing to do with polygamy, per se. I knew about the practice, before I joined the church. Most people are aware that Mormons practiced polygamy. My concerns arose out of the specifics of Joseph Smith's polygamy (young girls and married women).

Libs once more Your concerns were coming from your late 20th early 21st century perspective. As others have pointed out the majority of those women living it asked for and received a testimony of it and maintained that testimony throughout their lives. They didn't seem to be living with the same perspective you labor under. Perhaps it is time for an honest self evaluation of your perspective.

[Jaybear]

Their diaries and writings.

Ah, anecdotal evidence from women who entered into the practice.

You do realize that there are still women today who enter into the practice, who I presume also have a "testimony," don't you?

The question is what evidence do you have to believe polygamy was more acceptable then than today.

Keep in mind, Smith went to extraordinary efforts to keep the practice a secret for good reason.

[Deborah]

You do realize that there are still women today who enter into the practice, who I presume also have a "testimony," don't you?

So? What's your point? It just shows that it's not abhorrent to all women. Certainly "Sister Wives" demonstrated that.

[Jaybear]

I'm still wondering where the assertion that Polygamy is abhorrent to women (coming from a man) is coming from. I hesitate to speak for an entire gender - especially one that's not my own.

I have it on good authority that its abhorrent to your Church:

Mitt Romney: "The practice of polygamy is abhorrent, it's awful, and it drives me nuts that people who are polygamists keep pretending to use the umbrella of my church," he adds in his ornate office at the State House. "My church abhors it, it excommunicates people who practice it, and it's got nothing to do with my faith."

[wenglund]

Ah, anecdotal evidence from women who entered into the practice.

As opposed to your non-existent evidence.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

So? What's your point? It just shows that it's not abhorrent to all women. Certainly "Sister Wives" demonstrated that.

My point?

You said: Also as someone already pointed out we are looking at the practice through present day eyes and prejudices and in a society that relishes sex and pornography.

I asked: What reason do you have to believe that polygamy to less abhorant to women in the 1830/40s than to women today?

I don't believe that society is less tolerant of polygamy today than they were in the 1830s/40s. I am asking you and ERAY to back up this claim the modern day opposition to polygmay is rooted in modern perceptions of morality.

[ERayR]

Ah, anecdotal evidence from women who entered into the practice.

You do realize that there are still women today who enter into the practice, who I presume also have a "testimony," don't you?

I am very well aware of it. What do you think it means? I would say it is not as abhorrent as you seem to believe.

The question is what evidence do you have to believe polygamy was more acceptable then than today.

If you will go back and carefully read for comprehension you will see I was not speaking of polygamy but of marriage age.

Keep in mind, Smith went to extraordinary efforts to keep the practice a secret for good reason.

Aha new revelation. Where did you get that from? This sheds a whole new light on the subject.

[ERayR]

I have it on good authority that its abhorrent to your Church:

Mitt Romney: "The practice of polygamy is abhorrent, it's awful, and it drives me nuts that people who are polygamists keep pretending to use the umbrella of my church," he adds in his ornate office at the State House. "My church abhors it, it excommunicates people who practice it, and it's got nothing to do with my faith."

Whoa hoss you have lost me. When did Mitt Romney become a spokesman for the LDS Church?

[Libs]

I have it on good authority that its abhorrent to your Church:

Mitt Romney: "The practice of polygamy is abhorrent, it's awful, and it drives me nuts that people who are polygamists keep pretending to use the umbrella of my church," he adds in his ornate office at the State House. "My church abhors it, it excommunicates people who practice it, and it's got nothing to do with my faith."

Interesting. I didn't know he had said those things.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So? What's your point? It just shows that it's not abhorrent to all women. Certainly "Sister Wives" demonstrated that.

I was just thinking of this the other day. I don't think polygamy is abhorrent even when not commanded. I think a different mind set is required to understand polygamy. Would I practice Polygamy? I hope I am never asked too. Any way carry on.

[ERayR]

My point?

You said: Also as someone already pointed out we are looking at the practice through present day eyes and prejudices and in a society that relishes sex and pornography.

I asked: What reason do you have to believe that polygamy to less abhorant to women in the 1830/40s than to women today?

I don't believe that society is less tolerant of polygamy today than they were in the 1830s/40s. I am asking you and ERAY to back up this claim the modern day opposition to polygmay is rooted in modern perceptions of morality.

My point?

You said: Also as someone already pointed out we are looking at the practice through present day eyes and prejudices and in a society that relishes sex and pornography.

I asked: What reason do you have to believe that polygamy to less abhorant to women in the 1830/40s than to women today?

I don't believe that society is less tolerant of polygamy today than they were in the 1830s/40s. I am asking you and ERAY to back up this claim the modern day opposition to polygmay is rooted in modern perceptions of morality.

Can't let you get away with it. I believe there was once a term being used on this board. That term was Being Jaybeared. I am going to have to revive it. Go back to post # 701. You will se that had nothing to do with polygamy but with the sealing of Joseph to two particular groups, how be it small groups.

So now I am going to have to decline your invitation and ask you to go back to Post # 701 and read for comprehension. I will not try to defend something I did not say. I will not be jaybeared.

[Zakuska]

I just want to reiterate that my problem or concern really had nothing to do with polygamy, per se. I knew about the practice, before I joined the church. Most people are aware that Mormons practiced polygamy. My concerns arose out of the specifics of Joseph Smith's polygamy (young girls and married women).

What about all the infants?

[Libs]

Libs once more Your concerns were coming from your late 20th early 21st century perspective. As others have pointed out the majority of those women living it asked for and received a testimony of it and maintained that testimony throughout their lives. They didn't seem to be living with the same perspective you labor under. Perhaps it is time for an honest self evaluation of your perspective.

Ray, I can understand and accept that many "grown" women had a testimony of polygamy, as they lived it, and believed it was from God. I, truly, do accept that, and I have zero problem with it.

My problem was in learning the ages of some of the young women. Now, I know that is explained away by differing cultures (presentism or whatever), but it was still very bothersome, to me, especially if Joseph consummated those marriages. I don't know that he did...and if he didn't, and they truly were just some kind of dynastic sealings, that would be less worrisome, to me.

[Libs]

What about all the infants?

??

[Tacenda]

What about all the infants?

My belief is that he may have used natural birth control, if you get my drift. And the infants that could have been born with married women you really wouldn't know if they were Joseph's children or the husbands. I think that since polygamy wasn't a principle lived out in the open he would not want to have any children. I went to the Sunstone Symposium recently and Brian C.Hales gave a great presentation against Joseph Smith really having many sexual relationships with any polyandry sealings/marriages. But left open the possibility that one child may be his and that would be Josephine, daughter of Sylvia Porter Sessions.

Here is an article that is interesting...

http://www.deseretne...ith-family.html

Edited July 30, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

My problem was in learning the ages of some of the young women. Now, I know that is explained away by differing cultures (presentism or whatever), but it was still very bothersome, to me, especially if Joseph consummated those marriages. I don't know that he did...and if he didn't, and they truly were just some kind of dynastic sealings, that would be less worrisome, to me.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do (here it comes) but is it something you can do anything about now? What you have to decide now is if you believe he was ever a prophet. Did he receive a vision? Did he get "gold" plates from which he got the Book of Mormon? Did he receive priesthood authority. If you can answer yes to those then to be honest with yourself you have to put this away as something that will be answered later. If he did do it wrong you can bet that by now God has corrected him.

[Libs]

To Zakuska & Tacenda:

Oh, the children of Joseph Smith (of which there are none, to my knowledge, from his polygamous marriages).

Tacenda, I think (?) Josephine was ruled out, as a potential child.

They have done a lot of DNA work, to try and prove that Joseph had other children by his polygamous wives, but I don't think any have been confirmed, thus far.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Libs

[wenglund]

My belief is that he may have used natural birth control, if you get my drift.

I figured that what happened behind Joseph's bedroom door was his business, and not ours.

And, yet, here we have some who are walking past the door and looking into his bed.

Is there no bounds to propriety that demand being respected? Or, has our voyeuristic culture completely dulled our senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

I figured that what happened behind Joseph's bedroom door was his business, and not ours.

And, yet, here we have some who are walking past the door and looking into his bed.

Is there no bounds to propriety that demand being respected? Or, has our voyeuristic culture completely dulled our senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Point well taken, but so many plausible reasons for no children, and one I've heard in anti circles is so bad, I had to give one of the better ones.

[ERayR]

I figured that what happened behind Joseph's bedroom door was his business, and not ours.

And, yet, here we have some who are walking past the door and looking into his bed.

Is there no bounds to propriety that demand being respected? Or, has our voyeuristic culture completely dulled our senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And from 200 years downstream.

[ERayR]

Point well taken, but so many plausible reasons for no children, and one I've heard in anti circles is so bad, I had to give one of the better ones.

One possibility out of 20+ wives. It doesn't seem to have been that busy of a bedroom.

[Zakuska]

??

There are several infants who were "sealed" to Joseph Smith after his death.

It is my opinion that at the time the "sealing" was construed into a marriage by people who really didn't understand it.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Zakuska

[KevinG]

We are certainly eyeing the Principle as practiced by the early Saints through eyes of those who are not commanded to live it, plus the over-sexualized culture we now live in that dumbs down love and intimacy with physical acts.

If more people understood and lived monogamy well there would be less abhorrence and more understanding of what God commanded polygamy was about.

I find it deplorable and hypocritical that our culture celebrates fornication and serial monogamy while judging stable polygamous relationships as bad.

[Libs]

There are several infants who were "sealed" to Joseph Smith after his death.

It is my opinion that at the time the "sealing" was construed into a marriage by people who really didn't understand it.

Ah, I see. Thanks. Didn't know that.

[Deborah]

I don't believe that society is less tolerant of polygamy today than they were in the 1830s/40s. I am asking you and ERAY to back up this claim the modern day opposition to polygmay is rooted in modern perceptions of morality.

The fact that society finds it less tolerant doesn't mean that individuals motivated by religious belief hold the same opinions. I think it is less tolerant in the sense that it's something we've seen so abused by the FLDS and other groups that there is a reflex action against it, even among members of the church. In the pioneer days this really was something unprecedented in this country, except of course native American tribes that practiced it, but they after all were barbarians, right. However, the sensibilities of the people would have found it contrary to anything they had ever known.

I think the prevalence of open sex and pornography likewise creates the sense that any one who participates in this does so for lust and no other reason. True that may have been the thoughts at Joseph Smith's time, but I think it is a little hypocritical since whoring was such a common practice among some of even the genteel population.