Episcopalians Flounder..Will Lds Follow?

[why me]

Question:

Is this the inevitable fate of all orthodox religions during this time of social upheaval?

Can this happen to the LDS Church too?

Bernard

Yes, if the lds church begins to follow the ways of the world and adopts measures what the world expects the lds church to adopt. But if the lds church holds fast to the iron rod, it will prevail in the end. The two churches that seem to hold fast to the iron rod are the lds church and the catholic church. Both face criticism and an onslaught of complaints. But so far, both are not heading the way of the socially liberal protestant sects.

[why me]

Yes, I read that article and I know that LDS are very good at indoctrinating their children...but, they are still losing a lot of their youth, just like the rest of them. Usually, in their 20's. I see them in apostate groups often, many fresh off of their missions.

Indoctrinating? The lds church does not have reeducation camps for wayward believers.

The youth may fall to experience the world...certainly, the world is attractive. Paul knew this too and this is why he cautioned the early saints about it. But in the end, when the world disappoints and it will do as they get older and wiser, they may just end up back in the fold. Hopefully, without the usual STDs and alcohol and drug problems that some in the world face.

[Duncan]

Any idea what was going on?

I emailed the elder to get the full story as he recalls it but from what I recall was it came down to two families who had a problem with each other and the congregation took sides and it escalated way out of control from there and people quit the church, got exed and whatever else. I don't know the cause of the split but I await more info!

[Storm Rider]

There is a difference between chaning social, cultural norms and changing doctrine. I can see where social/cultural norms may need to change, but when doctrine changes radically - denying the divinity of Jesus Christ - then all is lost.

The last days will bring many have itching ears that seek after those who will tell them all is well with them. They may be quite successful, but they will lead their people away from God and into damnation. As was said above, those who hold to the rod, even when all are against them, will be saved and stand blameless before the Lord.

[Storm Rider]

We have only to look at the RLDS Church to see what happens when apostasy takes hold. We have see many splinter groups from the LDS Church also. Apostasy, the buffetings of Satan, is real and constant and it does affect groups of people.

[why me]

Is this the fate of churches that cling to orthodoxy?

Bernard

I don't think so. What is orthodoxy?

However, if one believes that the lds church is god's church, then one must believe that it will not happen. The catholics have the same belief since catholics believe that the gates of hell will not prevail against the catholic church as promised in the bible. This is the bone of contention catholics have with the apostacy claim of the lds church. But I do believe that a few will fall away because the world is attractive with its promises of happiness. Live free and die happy...don't tread on me...all seem like pretty good draws for the younger crowd. Until they realize just what freedom is and what happiness is too.

[Libs]

Indoctrinating? The lds church does not have reeducation camps for wayward believers.

The youth may fall to experience the world...certainly, the world is attractive. Paul knew this too and this is why he cautioned the early saints about it. But in the end, when the world disappoints and it will do as they get older and wiser, they may just end up back in the fold. Hopefully, without the usual STDs and alcohol and drug problems that some in the world face.

I should have just said "teach".

Indoctrinate - 1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach

Also, I am not trying to say that the church needs to drastically change. I think it has already adapted, culturally, somewhat, by allowing blacks in the Priesthood. Also, women are treated more as equals (the language, at least, is very respectful and equality is often used, when describing the gender roles....equal, with different roles to play). I doubt that was stressed as much in the 1800's, as women were just viewed differently, back then. So, the church has already adapted (likely in many ways) to the culture. Another adaption is the garments. They look very different from what was worn in the 1800's. Clothing styles have changed drastically and so has the "bar" for what is viewed as "modest". The church has and will continue to (no doubt) adapt, somewhat, to the culture.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Libs

[CASteinman]

I doubt that was stressed as much in the 1800's, as women were just viewed differently, back then.

The Church has been at the forefront of the spiritual doctrine of women's equality with man, virtually from the start.

Edited July 16, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

However, if one believes that the lds church is god's church, then one must believe that it will not happen.

While I tend to agree with the sentiment, it is not so much because this is God's Church as much as it is because God has promised that this restoration is the last one.

There have been times in the past when the organization given the Gospel and its Ordinances has strayed so badly it was abandoned by God. I believe we are every bit as capable of that today, if not more. However, we are promised that God will keep us aright.

[Avatar4321]

It can happen. However, it won't. The Lord will appear before an Apostasy has a chance to occur in this Dispensation. In fact, we are told that He will "cut short His work." It leads me to believe that if the Lord doesn't do this, Apostasy would occur if the Lord didn't do this.

Others may fall away, but if we seek the Spirit and keep the covenants we have made, we won't.

[Darren10]

This is not a thread about gays and the LDS Church. Please stay out if you feel the

need to discuss that issue.

The Episcopalian Church is suffering grave divisions brought about by liberalizing

their theology, ie., redefining the nature of God and man, denying Lordship of Jesus,

advocating SS marriage even for ministers, and ordaining homosexual ministers.

Whole congregations are seceding, finances dwindle, property lawsuits abound,

and membership is falling rapidly.

http://www.theblaze....-near-collapse/

Question:

Is this the inevitable fate of all orthodox religions during this time of social upheaval?

Can this happen to the LDS Church too?

Bernard

I guess this "could" happen to the LDS Church. But in order for the same effect to happen the LDS Church must essentially make the same choices as the Episcopalian church. Here thoug hI think is the dilema. The LDS Church has a strong history of "cleaning house" so would a locval L:DS bishop who denies the lordship of Jesus Christ stay in his position for very long? I doubt it. Same goes for same sex marriage. If a stake president endorsed same sex marriage on befalh of his LDS stake how long would he retain his position? I doubt for very long. What about cross dressing LDS leaders in lieu of the cross-dressing Episcopalian leaders? There needs to be a drastic change within the LDS leadership in order to reach the same problematic position the Episcopalian church currently faces.

[Darren10]

How would that work as the Church comes under increasing pressure to abandon traditional standards

from within?

Bernard

Clean house I suppose.

[Darren10]

The "Stake Excommunication" is one of the lesser known procedures in the handbook.

Usually, the members don't have much warning. When tithing receipts and seminary attendance dip below a certain level, an apostle will visit for Stake Conference and conclude his remarks by saying "Oh, and by the way, you're all excommunicated."

OK, I'm giving you all this, like, fourth hand so bare with me. The "telephone line" on this incident goes as follows: one of my roomates at BYU served in Tierra del fuego mission in southern Argentina. He told me a story his mission president told him and all other missionaries at a zone conference while said mission president was serving as a bishop in I think the Buenos Aires area. He said the stake president (of the Buenos Aires area) he was serving under began a scheme of ciphering off a little bit here and there in tithing donations. He began to call bishops he trusted to positions in order to expand and/or keep this scheme going. Said mision president was not a participant in the scheme though he knew it wa going on. On time during stake conference in came a group of people who walked immediately to the front of the meeting. They sat and one in that group was a apostle while the others were accountants for the Church. The apostle refused to sit at the pulpit area but did stand up and proceed to the pulpit at the end of the stake conference. His directions that at the end of the meeting, everyone was to be dismissed except for the stake president and the bishops attending. said mission president said there wa a huge sigh of relief from the honest bishops and expression of dread from the dishonest ones. Said mission president said that when he went into his one-on-one interview wit the apostle said apostle (sorry about all the "saids" in this sentence) told him, said mission president, that he, the apostle, knew that said mission president was a good and honest bishop and that there was no need to worry about him (said mission president). in te end the stake resident and several bishops wre excommunicated.

Cleaned house I tell ya.

[Darren10]

Is this the fate of churches that cling to orthodoxy?

Bernard

Huh? No. I think prosperity is the fruits of curches who cling to orthodoxy.

[Darren10]

The two churches that seem to hold fast to the iron rod are the lds church and the catholic church. Both face criticism and an onslaught of complaints. But so far, both are not heading the way of the socially liberal protestant sects.

Almost exactly what I thought when I read the patheos article.

[selek1]

The only problems I have with the Canada and Buenos Aires narratives is that they are all coming in third-hand.

A friend-of-a-friend-related-to-a-Stake-President-who-just-happened-to-serve-rhubarb-pie-to-J.Golden Kimball-while-on-his-mission-once-told-a-Catholic-nun-that "X" occurred.

Color me skeptical, but we've yet to see any first-hand testimony or even documentary evidence that these events took place.

I don't intend to disparage or question the honesty of any one here (when I do, you'll know it), but In my book that places these stories firmly in the category of "faith-promoting (or faith-destroying) rumor."

[WalkerW]

I would want to look really hard at cause and effect. Most U.S. Churches have dwindled in membership, including conservative churches, over the past 20-30 years or so.

Ironically, it has been the more conservative churches that have had the most growth, while the theologically liberal ones have been dwindling. See Rodney Stark, What Americans Really Believe (Baylor University Press, 2008). The Barna Group has identified six major reasons young people leave their churches. However, as Stark and Byron Johnson have written in the WSJ,

The national news media yawned over the Baylor Survey's findings that the number of American atheists has remained steady at 4% since 1944, and that church membership has reached an all-time high. But when a study by the Barna Research Group claimed that young people under 30 are deserting the church in droves, it made headlines and newscasts across the nation—even though it was a false alarm. Surveys always find that younger people are less likely to attend church, yet this has never resulted in the decline of the churches. It merely reflects the fact that, having left home, many single young adults choose to sleep in on Sunday mornings. Once they marry, though, and especially once they have children, their attendance rates recover. Unfortunately, because the press tends not to publicize this correction, many church leaders continue unnecessarily fretting about regaining the lost young people.

The National Study of Youth and Religion has some excellent resources on young people and church. Kenda Dean's Almost Christian (Oxford University Press, 2010) does a fine job of explaining the religious malnutrition among Christian teenagers and why Mormon teens do relatively well in comparison.

I've written somewhat on this topic, but incorporated hipster Christians.

Edited July 16, 2012 by WalkerW

[Aspasia]

I imagine that there will be many apostatizing from the church. It is already happening. There are those who do not like church policies on this or that point or they do not like church history and vote with their feet (and sometimes rhetoric) because of it. I would not even be surprised to see church membership begin to fall, rather than increase, in the face of continued social shifts that are in conflict with church doctrines. But what do I know? I'm not a prophet (INAP).

Glenn

Well, I have first hand experience of this in the area I live in - in an English speaking country. A few years ago it was decided by the powers-that-be to discontinue holding church meetings in the language of a certain prominent cultural group in the church here (not sure if it was an area or stake decision). This created a huge schism in the local wards, with many members of that cultural group leaving the church to continue holding services in their own language. An apostle who visited the country met with the leaders of this group and pleaded with them to come back but they refused unless they could hold LDS services in their own language. Hundreds of people left and after several years now have their own church, complete with a bus that has it's 'Revised' church name painted on the side. Of those who chose to remain with the LDS church, most seem ok with how things are organised, but many are still openly resentful of any 'white' leaders and will only attend wards where representatives of their cultural group are bishops, RS presidents, etc.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Ironically, it has been the more conservative churches that have had the most growth, while the theologically liberal ones have been dwindling.

Thanks for the links, Walker.

[ERayR]

This is not a thread about gays and the LDS Church. Please stay out if you feel the

need to discuss that issue.

The Episcopalian Church is suffering grave divisions brought about by liberalizing

their theology, ie., redefining the nature of God and man, denying Lordship of Jesus,

advocating SS marriage even for ministers, and ordaining homosexual ministers.

Whole congregations are seceding, finances dwindle, property lawsuits abound,

and membership is falling rapidly.

http://www.theblaze....-near-collapse/

Question:

Is this the inevitable fate of all orthodox religions during this time of social upheaval?

Can this happen to the LDS Church too?

Bernard

Reread the parable of the ten virgins

[Hamilton Porter]

This is not a thread about gays and the LDS Church. Please stay out if you feel the

need to discuss that issue.

The Episcopalian Church is suffering grave divisions brought about by liberalizing

their theology, ie., redefining the nature of God and man, denying Lordship of Jesus,

advocating SS marriage even for ministers, and ordaining homosexual ministers.

Whole congregations are seceding, finances dwindle, property lawsuits abound,

and membership is falling rapidly.

http://www.theblaze....-near-collapse/

Question:

Is this the inevitable fate of all orthodoxy religions during this time of social upheaval?

Can this happen to the LDS Church too?

Bernard

I don't get it. Episcopalian Church is reforming their theology and not clinging to orthodox. This is happening to liberal churches, not conservative churches like ours.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Hamilton Porter

[Duncan]

The only problems I have with the Canada and Buenos Aires narratives is that they are all coming in third-hand.

A friend-of-a-friend-related-to-a-Stake-President-who-just-happened-to-serve-rhubarb-pie-to-J.Golden Kimball-while-on-his-mission-once-told-a-Catholic-nun-that "X" occurred.

Color me skeptical, but we've yet to see any first-hand testimony or even documentary evidence that these events took place.

I don't intend to disparage or question the honesty of any one here (when I do, you'll know it), but In my book that places these stories firmly in the category of "faith-promoting (or faith-destroying) rumor."

Patience! I am still waiitng for first hand info from an email from a friend who was the missionary involved!

[CASteinman]

FYI, I have seen an analysis of the loss of membership in the Episcopalian Church, taking a look at what the cause was.

The person conducting the analysis felt and provided consistent evidence that it was the effect of low birth rates within their denomination -- not liberalism -- that had affected their head count.

However, his analysis was written 10 years ago and he was not including the effect of multiple branches of the church taking their cookies and leaving -- as happened in the last decade.

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/dojustice/j325.html

[CV75]

There some who could, but thankfully we have Priesthood sturcture to keep that in check.

Oh yes-- I forgot about Elder Gantry...

[Jaybear]

Ironically, it has been the more conservative churches that have had the most growth, while the theologically liberal ones have been dwindling.

Its only ironic if you think the liberal churches made the changes to preserve membership numbers, rather than because they believe the changes were the right/moral/christian thing to do.

If its the latter situation, I think you would call the departures separating the wheat from the chaff.