Michael Coe Interview On Mormonstories

[Brant Gardner]

Can you give a bullet point list of the parts embedded into the text that fit with history?

I've posted this list a few times on the board, but I'm not smart enough to find them and link to one of them. So--for those who wish I wouldn't, please forgive the repetition.

This never formats here. I would also note that these really are bullet points and often understanding them requires a lot of text that isn't here.

1) Geospatial convergences

a) Internal geography corresponds to a specific region in Mesoamerica

b) Book of Mormon has over 400 geographic references which are consistent in their interrelationships, both spatial and topological.

c) Sorenson’s correlation is best known. Poulsen’s is an important alternative using the same basic area, but resolving directional issues.

d) One set of references in Helaman may combine to point specifically to Teotihuacán

2) Geospatial convergences

a) Relative relationships of Jaredite, Nephite and Lamanite territories.

b) The meeting of Mulekites and Nephites in the Grijalva River Valley is convergent with archaeological evidence of the movement of Zoquean speakers up the Grijalva and meeting with Maya influences.

3) Chronological convergences

a) Geography and ethnic chronology

i) Time depth convergence between Jaredite and Olmec civilizations and some Maya and the Nephites.

ii)Decline of San Lorenzo corresponds to the timing of a major drought in the book of Ether for the same time and general geography.

iii) Book of Mormon reflects preexilic, pre-Josian-reform Israelite religion appropriate to 600 B.C.

iv)Emphasis on an atoning Messiah

v) Conceptual relationship between Yahweh and the Most High God.

b) Book of Mormon and Mesoamerican chronology

i) Beginning social development in the Middle Preclassic:

ii)Mesoamerican evidence indicates that the development of social hierarchies began with “aggrandizers” who used polygamous families to increase trade goods.

iii) Jacob specifically argues against twin “evils,” social hierarchy and polygamy during this time period.

iv)Pressures for kingship increase in the Middle Preclassic and similar pressures are evidenced in the Book of Mormon.

v) Increasing warfare evident in the archaeological record. In the Book of Mormon warfare moves from raids to wars during the same period.

vi)Movement of Cholan speakers into Kaminaljuyu around 200 B.C. converges with the political pressure that resulted in Mosiah1’s departure for Zarahemla.

vii) Records of several volcanic eruptions and social displacements around the time of Christ converges with the description of the destruction at that time the Book of Mormon, which in turn corresponds to volcanic activity.

viii) The abrupt change in the nature of warfare occasioned by the Teotihuacano incursion into the Maya Lowlands corresponds in time and features with Mormon’s laments in the book of Mormon about the change in the nature of warfare.

4) Cultural convergences

a) Economic

i) Costly apparel convergence with the manifestation of personal wealth in clothing.

ii)Both Mesoamerican and Book of Mormon conquests establish tribute relationships rather than the Western-style of conquering cities or nations.

iii) The Book of Mormon complaints against “plundering” converges with the Mesoamerican establishment of tribute relationships.

b) Anthropological

i) 1 and 2 Nephi parallel established patterns of ethnogenesis

c) Pejorative stereotyping

i) Insider/outsider terminology (Nephite/Lamanite)

d) Kinship

i) Emphasis on kin as organizational principle

ii)Declarations of genealogy upon meeting a stranger

iii) Consistent use of kin inheritance in both political and religious leadership roles

iv)Amulek's description of his household fits a Mesoamerican home compound, including multi-generations and collateral kin

5) “Getting the right things wrong” - when the text makes a “mistake,” it makes the “correct” mistake

i) Insider/outsider vocabulary

ii)Mormon’s presentism.

iii) Mormon’s description of wealth in Alma 1

iv)Possible indications of the vigesimal system

(1)400 year cycle in prophecy

(2)Structure of various “counts”

b) Archaeological

i) General location of sites and times

ii)Nephi’s compound in Helaman 7:10

iii) Defensive fortifications, including dry moats

iv)Roads

c) Political

i) Description of site visits in Lamanite cities (part of the story of Ammon) converge with descriptions of site visits from the epigraphy.

ii)The Book of Mormon description of a “King over kings” in Ammon’s story converges with the political organization described in the epigraphy.

iii) Relationships of cities in a hegemony parallel the loose confederation of Zarahemla.

iv)Fraternal succession of rulers

v) Alma 60:6-7 - multiple people on “thrones” corresponds to the use of the Mesoamerican “seat,” or “throne.”

vi)The desire of the kingmen to allow Lamanite conquerors has parallels in Maya politics.

d) Warfare

i) The seasons of warfare match with the types of seasonality in Mesoamerica

ii)Relationship of timing of war and famines.

iii) Militia style – no standing army

iv)Defensive armament is correctly described

(1)Helmets

(2)Slings

(3)breastplates

(4)shields

(5)”Thick clothing” as armor

(6)Wounds on the legs - i.e. no greaves

v) Descriptions of the deployment and types of weapons

vi)Tactics

(1)Rarity and surprise of night movements

(2)Scouting a walled city, using ladders if not other way

(3)hiding in foxholes

(4)battle between champions

(5)defeat of the king is the defeat of the army

(6)battle by appointment

(7)War on a tribute model rather than a conquest model.

(8)Fortifications described that fit with developing Mesoamerican fortifications--appearing at approximately the same time period.

(9)Lineage succession of the general

6) Productive convergences

a) Geography as explanation

i) Limhi’s expedition gets lost because they follow the wrong river.

ii)Tactics depending upon topographic relationships

b) Culture as explanation

i) Jacob’s use of Isaiah

ii)Ammon before Lamoni

iii) Why Lamoni thought Ammon “more than a man”

iv)Clan struggles as background

v) Anti-Nephi-Lehies

vi)Mesoamerican caches and the Book of Mormon burying of weapons

vii) Captive sacrifice and the seating of kings

[robuchan]

Thanks Brant

[cursor]

There is a great deal of meat in an article that my father wrote years ago. It seems somewhat appropriate that in it he quotes the Mormon Stories podcast guest, Dr. Michael Coe.

The very idea that large numbers of books were written and preserved in any ancient American culture was also contrary to the notion universally held by literate and rustic citizens of the United States that the "Indians" were only "savages." The writer in Helaman 3:15 tells of "many books and many records of every kind" among his people in the first century BC, some kept by the Lamanites but a majority by Nephites. They had been "handed down from one generation to another" (v. 16). Spaniards noted (but only in documents that Joseph Smith could not have known about) that numerous native books—many held in great reverence as sacred records—were in use when they arrived in Mexico in the early sixteenth century. Archaeologist Michael Coe believes "there must have been thousands of such books in Classic times" (generally AD 300–900).

Only four have been preserved from the Maya zone. But in the 1820s not even the experts knew about these Mesoamerican books.

How Could Joseph Smith Write So Accurately about Ancient American Civilization?

[cursor]

I've posted this list a few times on the board, but I'm not smart enough to find them and link to one of them. So--for those who wish I wouldn't, please forgive the repetition.

Here you go, Brant.

[robuchan]

There is a great deal of meat in an article that my father wrote years ago. It seems somewhat appropriate that in it he quotes the Mormon Stories podcast guest, Dr. Michael Coe.

The very idea that large numbers of books were written and preserved in any ancient American culture was also contrary to the notion universally held by literate and rustic citizens of the United States that the "Indians" were only "savages." The writer in Helaman 3:15 tells of "many books and many records of every kind" among his people in the first century BC, some kept by the Lamanites but a majority by Nephites. They had been "handed down from one generation to another" (v. 16). Spaniards noted (but only in documents that Joseph Smith could not have known about) that numerous native books—many held in great reverence as sacred records—were in use when they arrived in Mexico in the early sixteenth century. Archaeologist Michael Coe believes "there must have been thousands of such books in Classic times" (generally AD 300–900).

Only four have been preserved from the Maya zone. But in the 1820s not even the experts knew about these Mesoamerican books.

How Could Joseph Smith Write So Accurately about Ancient American Civilization?

100 BC is 400 - 1,000 years prior to that time range. The Jaredites were writing at least 500 years prior to that. Does that materially change the nature of the parallel here?

[cursor]

Dr. Coe simply says, "there must have been thousands of such books in Classic times." He doesn't say that there were no such books (or record keeping in alternative formats) in other periods of Mesoamerican human history.

[Calm]

I'm aware that JS regaled his family nightly with made up stories of the American Indians.

This twisted version is loosely based on Luck Mack Smith's book where she spoke of Joseph telling them stories of the inhabitants of the land before. If you have the book, look at the time, these stories were told after Moroni had visited Joseph multiple times and had shown him exactly what Joseph then shared with his family. There was no need for them to be "made up".

I would have thought by now you had developed a greater caution for assuming the validity of a controversial idea and that you would first, when thinking of using such, go and do a bit of research before making the claim or at least ask if it was accurate before using it with that assumption already in place.

http://www.fairlds.o...adow-or-reality

Edited July 4, 2012 by calmoriah

[semlogo]

I haven't listened to the podcast, but why should he feel obliged to respond to the latest apologetic theories rather than to the book itself? The former have no doctrinal weight. They're interesting ideas, but they don't really have much to do with the Church or with the Book of Mormon itself.

[Brant Gardner]

100 BC is 400 - 1,000 years prior to that time range. The Jaredites were writing at least 500 years prior to that. Does that materially change the nature of the parallel here?

Writing on perishable materials appears to have occurred earlier than the collection of writings we have on more permanent media. San Bartolo (100 B.C.) strongly suggests that painted writing preceded carved texts, and there is such a short step from writing on walls to writing on paper that it would be folly to assume that there were no books. Certainly later Maya art depicts codices and painters.

The Book of Mormon writing on plates is still unique, but the concept of books certainly is not. The rarity of those plates (apparently only available to royal lines) suggests that the lack of evidence is partly because they really were unique.

[Brant Gardner]

I haven't listened to the podcast, but why should he feel obliged to respond to the latest apologetic theories rather than to the book itself? The former have no doctrinal weight. They're interesting ideas, but they don't really have much to do with the Church or with the Book of Mormon itself.

Coe isn't responding to the Book of Mormon, he is responding to a perception of the Book of Mormon. In several cases in he interview, they were mistaken impressions (likely he has not read it for over 40 years, so I can excuse him for those). Coe clearly isn't responding to doctrine, but rather the secular setting. If that is the arena of discussion, then it behooves him to respond to the best literature on the topic, just as any professor would expect of a student discussing any historical issue.

[cursor]

My father, when he emailed me the OpenLetterCoe.pdf file months ago, told me that he was planning on sending Dr. Coe a copy of his Mormon's Codex when it's finally published early next year.

[cursor]

Perhaps we could submit interrogatories?

If you'll supply them to me, I might see what I can do. No guarantees, however.

[cursor]

On the subject of ancient record keeping, this written offering is quite helpful:

The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record

[cinepro]

Quaere: Michael Coe is not a Mormon. Michael Coe never has been a Mormon.

So how, exactly, is any interview he might give a "Mormon story?" He has no "Mormon story" to tell.

Wait, something's just occurred to me. Dr Coe is fairly well-known for having a disdainful attitude towards the Book of Mormon. Could it be that Mister Dehlin found that such an attitude was useful to his so-called "Mormonstories" enterprise?

And does that mean that "Mormonstories" is really an anti-Mormon propaganda mill?

Regards,

Pahoran

I've already gone on record with my disappointment in the content of the podcast, but it should be pointed out that to the degree that some LDS theorize that the events in The Book of Mormon took place in mesoamerica, the thoughts of a well known scholar of the Maya, Olmec and mesoamerican peoples would be very related to Mormonism.

In fact, I suspect if Coe's theories were more sympathetic, he would be lauded and adored alongside sympathetic non-LDS scholars like Margeret Barker.

Edited July 4, 2012 by cinepro

[why me]

In fact, I suspect if Coe's theories were more sympathetic, he would be lauded and adored alongside sympathetic non-LDS scholars like Margeret Barker.

Coe's remarks come from a position of atheism. He would also give short shift to the bible. Also, his tone was somewhat flippant when it came to mormonism. However, he did say that Joseph was the greatest religious thinker that America has ever produced. And that Joseph was a good writer because he wrote the book of mormon. But he was flippant about mormonism and about religion. Also, when one reads Joseph's letters to emma, we see someone not very literate and so, just how he wrote the book was not discussed by john with Coe. Certainly there is a disconnect between the book of mormon and JS's letters to his wife. And John could have mentioned this. But John was thrilled with Coe and his flippant attitude.

Edited July 4, 2012 by why me

[cursor]

While my father is not interested in doing a podcast regarding the Coe interview by Mormon Stories, what might be interesting would be for a member of FAIR to do one with Dr. Coe, using a series of select questions.

[ANACO]

On the subject of ancient record keeping, this written offering is quite helpful:

The Book of Mormon as a Mesoamerican Record

Cursor,

I have read that article and a portion is puzzling to me. Could you ask your father why he believes the Prophet Joseph Smith learned, two years before the Prophet's death, the geographical location of the Book of Mormon from a popular travel book? (I believe the Prophet received this book two years before his martyrdom.) I'm quoting from the link you provided above:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=41&chapid=196

What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history. Until he encountered the Stephens's book,

Also..

Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central, not South, America

Respectfully, I find this assertion to be very peculiar: that the foreordained Prophet of God, Seer and Revelator, who communed with Heavenly Father and angels, needed to learn the geographical location from a book of travels written by a popular author.

The first quote would indicate what was said by the Prophet Joseph Smith related to geography, was completely wrong and incorrect until he read the mentioned book. As if the Prophet didn't know what he was talking about.

The second, that the early Church Leaders relied on popular scholarship versus revelation.

I know this is controversial, as it appears to me this assertion to be the 'keystone' if you will, of the Mesoamerica theory. But I'm asking with the utmost respect toward you and your father. Are his views still the same?

With Kind Regards

[Calm]

While my father is not interested in doing a podcast regarding the Coe interview by Mormon Stories, what might be interesting would be for a member of FAIR to do one with Dr. Coe, using a series of select questions.

I will be sending you a PM shortly.

[Pahoran]

In fact, I suspect if Coe's theories were more sympathetic, he would be lauded and adored alongside sympathetic non-LDS scholars like Margeret Barker.

You may well be right. Of course, it's all moot anyway; because if Coe's theories were more sympathetic (and his position was well-known long before he went on "Mormonstories") then I suspect that Mister Dehlin would selected someone else to do his dirty work for him.

Regards,

Pahoran

[robuchan]

You may well be right. Of course, it's all moot anyway; because if Coe's theories were more sympathetic (and his position was well-known long before he went on "Mormonstories") then I suspect that Mister Dehlin would selected someone else to do his dirty work for him.

Regards,

Pahoran

Swing and a miss. Dehlin has had Brant Gardner and Dan Peterson and other LDS apologists on his show.

[Pahoran]

Swing and a miss. Dehlin has had Brant Gardner and Dan Peterson and other LDS apologists on his show.

I know this. Your point?

Regards,

Pahoran

[nosmelone]

Having listened to the whole Michael Coe interview and having read his book "The Maya" I was impressed to see him take on this subject. I felt it was obvious in listening to that podcast that his knowledge of the Book of Mormon was extremely limited to say the very, very least. For a TBM to hear him speak of his opinions on the subjectes that correlated to the Book of Mormon actually lost validity to some degree because he was very knowledgable on the Maya and ignorant as could be on the Book of Mormon. Here was a man that was not qualified to make this comparison. I felt that John D. was making this interview too easy for him by almost spoon feeding him loaded questions and not rebuttaling obviously uneducated answers or complete misses on LDS perspective.

The problem was shortly there after in listening to the Brant Gardner podcast I saw the exact opposite. I saw a man who was very qualified to speak on the parallels and he only was given limited time to cover that subject. It was as if John wanted him to give one to two word answers to any of those questions and not go into explaination. He also questions almost everything Brant offered and he did it over and over again. I found my self utterly disappointed (like usual) in the Mormon Stories podcasts and John D's style of bias interviewing....very unprofessional.

[Storm Rider]

Having listened to the whole Michael Coe interview and having read his book "The Maya" I was impressed to see him take on this subject. I felt it was obvious in listening to that podcast that his knowledge of the Book of Mormon was extremely limited to say the very, very least. For a TBM to hear him speak of his opinions on the subjectes that correlated to the Book of Mormon actually lost validity to some degree because he was very knowledgable on the Maya and ignorant as could be on the Book of Mormon. Here was a man that was not qualified to make this comparison. I felt that John D. was making this interview too easy for him by almost spoon feeding him loaded questions and not rebuttaling obviously uneducated answers or complete misses on LDS perspective.

The problem was shortly there after in listening to the Brant Gardner podcast I saw the exact opposite. I saw a man who was very qualified to speak on the parallels and he only was given limited time to cover that subject. It was as if John wanted him to give one to two word answers to any of those questions and not go into explaination. He also questions almost everything Brant offered and he did it over and over again. I found my self utterly disappointed (like usual) in the Mormon Stories podcasts and John D's style of bias interviewing....very unprofessional.

Dehlin's purpose to not to find answers, but to sow doubt, find doubt, strengthen doubt. He has lost all any concept of truth because he has concluded that truth does not exist; it is relative to whatever the individual says it is; except for LDS they cannot know truth because they have no individuality. He is only interested in the real people; you know, those that think like him.

[Brant Gardner]

Respectfully, I find this assertion to be very peculiar: that the foreordained Prophet of God, Seer and Revelator, who communed with Heavenly Father and angels, needed to learn the geographical location from a book of travels written by a popular author.

It is a question many have asked without understanding that the question itself needs to be questioned. If Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon (rather than translating it), then it would be correct that he would know where he designed it to be located. Of course he should have known. However, if he translated the Book of Mormon (as he said he did), then there is every reason why he wouldn't have known the location. Joseph couldn't have learned more from the text than what the text has to say, and nearly two centuries of readers are still discussing those geographic clues.

That leaves the assumption that a prophet should have known. That assumption is simply based on a requirement we build and apply to a prophet. It assumes that if the prophet knows anything he must know everything. Unfortunately, that was never true in the Bible, and has not been true with modern prophets (and Joseph specifically denied that any such concept applied to him).

The reality is that the fact that Joseph didn't understand where the Book of Mormon had taken place, and was willing to look at new evidence to improve his understanding, strongly suggests that he didn't write the Book of Mormon himself. Had he done so, he would have been adamant in making sure that it always conformed to the ideas he implanted in the text. Nothing like that ever happened. There have been a lot of really fascinating tidbits discovered about the text that link it to antiquity. Had Joseph cunningly placed them there as potential proofs of his text, one would think he would have made sure that they were discovered in his lifetime, not over 150 years later.

Joseph translated the text and that didn't meant that he knew everything about it. He was also a similar type of prophet to the others God has called (before and since) in that he was never (and never claimed) to know everything. Those prophets we have had since his time who have reiterated that the church has no official stance on the Book of Mormon's geography continue to support the fact that geography was not revealed alongside the text.

[semlogo]

Coe isn't responding to the Book of Mormon, he is responding to a perception of the Book of Mormon. In several cases in he interview, they were mistaken impressions (likely he has not read it for over 40 years, so I can excuse him for those). Coe clearly isn't responding to doctrine, but rather the secular setting. If that is the arena of discussion, then it behooves him to respond to the best literature on the topic, just as any professor would expect of a student discussing any historical issue.

Maybe I'll give it a listen to see exactly what he's discussing, but I'd never characterize apologetic theories as "the best literature on the topic." The only really relevant literature on the topic can be found on the Church's website, not someone's hobby horse theories published outside the official channels of the church.

Edited July 5, 2012 by semlogo