New World Evidence For The Book Of Mormon

[Zakuska]

I just listened to these videos online, thought I would share:

Good Job Brant.

One quick question-

Is it possible that the Quezta-quatal [sic] legends where echo's of earler cultural stories passed down or heard from other cultures?

[Sargon]

Yep, Gardner's presentation there is pretty good stuff.

[livy111us]

Brant has several presentations in FAIRs Mesomerica and The Book of Mormon playlist on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=91823FC24CEE9739

[Brant Gardner]

Is it possible that the Quezta-quatal [sic] legends where echo's of earler cultural stories passed down or heard from other cultures?

That isn't a simple question to answer. Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec deity, clearly has roots and connections to earlier and different cultures. There are threads that can be traced and there seem to be some alterations. What I cannot do is trace any part of the pre-Columbian Quetzalcoatl to a non-native source.

[Greg66666]

You briefly mentioned in your talk about the connection/nexus between having many wives and production of wealth, that Jacob alluded to in Jacob 2. Can you cite any articles or books about Mesoamerica in that time frame that go into more detail on this? This is one of those little details you never think about and almost nobody brings up in Sunday School, at least the ones I attend. Love it lots.

By the way, I am a friendly lurker with very few posts. Just asking for information.

[Tribunal]

Brother Gardner, do you have a list of all the points of convergence you've made between the Book of Mormon and Meso-America?

Have you presented your work to non-LDS Meso-American scholars, and if so, what has been the response?

[Brant Gardner]

You briefly mentioned in your talk about the connection/nexus between having many wives and production of wealth, that Jacob alluded to in Jacob 2. Can you cite any articles or books about Mesoamerica in that time frame that go into more detail on this? This is one of those little details you never think about and almost nobody brings up in Sunday School, at least the ones I attend. Love it lots.

I learned about the connection in the following article:

Clark, John E. and Michael Blake. â??The Power of Prestige: Competitive Generosity and the Emergence of Rank Societies in Lowland Mesoamerica.â? In The Ancient Civilizations of Mesoamerica, edited by Michael E. Smith and Marilyn A. Masson. Malden, Massachusetts: Blackwell Publishers, 2000, 252-270.

These two archaeologists were working on the problem of how an unranked community develops into a more complex society with social ranks. Their determination was that there were some who were simply more aggressive in accumulating the benefits of trade. One of the ways that you increase your production is to have a larger work force, and in early Mesoamerica it was your family. The more wives the larger the production and the greater the yield.

[Brant Gardner]

Brother Gardner, do you have a list of all the points of convergence you've made between the Book of Mormon and Meso-America?

At the end of this post is the list I presented during that conference. It is not comprehensive. I know Mark Wright has added a few that I had not previously seen.

Have you presented your work to non-LDS Meso-American scholars, and if so, what has been the response?

I haven't, and without the text that creates the argument, it wouldn't be very interesting to any of them. I have the arguments in context in Second Witness, but none of them want to wade through that to find it.

If there were any non-LDS Mesoamericanists who were interested enough to look at the material (and there would be very few who would even consider it) I would expect that they might say "I see why you think that." That is the best I would hope for. I see nothing in the Book of Mormon that suggests that it would fundamentally alter the larger view of Mesoamerican history, so it will continue to be uninteresting to them--at best.

The list:

Geospatial convergences

Internal geography corresponds to a specific region in Mesoamerica

Book of Mormon has over 400 geographic references which are consistent in their interrelationships, both spatial and topological.

Sorenson’s correlation is best known. Poulsen’s is an important alternative using the same basic area, but resolving directional issues.

One set of references in Helaman may combine to point specifically to Teotihuac

[erichard]

...The list:

...

Hi Brant,

Very impressive list. I should check it out.

I still tend to trust George Potter's Peru version. Here is a couple of quotes from this pdf file on his site.

My upcoming book, Nephi in the Promised Land, will provide compelling evidence

that Peru is the land of the Book of Mormon. For now, here are just a few reasons for

believing that the Book of Mormon took place in South America and that the religious

mythologies of Mesoamerica (e.g.., a great flood and a white god) were imports from

Peru. [goes on to give a few reasons...]

Every Viracocha image at Tiahuanacu is clearly of a god in

the form of a man. Perhaps the most famous icon of

Viracocha is the carving of him that adorns the Sun Gate at

Tiahuanacu. The carving is of a man holding staffs, having an aurora around his head (common

artistic convention for signifying deity), featuring a beard, and

having tears falling upon his cheeks (possible symbolism for

the love and passion Christ displayed in the Promised Land)

(3 Nephi 17:20,21).

On one hand, the similarities of the Tiahuanacu statues and the images of Christ in the

Book of Third Nephi are intuitive. On the other hand, the Mesoamerican icons of

Quetzalcoatl are what are referred to as beast-fables, gods who have taken on animal

characteristics. Speaking only for myself, I find it difficult to associate Jesus Christ with

the image of a snake head wearing feathers.

In my opinion, such beast-fable images are a sign that the white-god tradition in

Mesoamerica has been significantly distorted. Indeed, in Judo-Christian symbolism

the image of the serpent is associated with Satan, not Christ.

Richard

[Brant Gardner]

I still tend to trust George Potter's Peru version. Here is a couple of quotes.

The snippet quotes strongly suggest that Brother Potter isn't an expert in early religions, history of religions, folklore, or comparative religions. This is the kind of evidence that promoted Quetzalcoatl for nearly a century. It skims the surface of the information and makes correlations that typically don't withstand examination.

I can't say anything definitive, since Peruvian culture is not an area I have studied. However, I know enough to be suspicious of too-easy correlations. I will certainly read his evidence when it is available, but I don't hold out much hope for it. The geography is really wrong and I suspect that the cultural correlations won't be rigorous (based on the descriptions I have seen).

[Olavarria]

I see the dog. I did a whole thread on the Book of Ether, but it seems that all we want to talk about these days is Adam-God......lame

[poulsenll]

I see the dog. I did a whole thread on the Book of Ether, but it seems that all we want to talk about these days is Adam-God......lame

I'm with you.

It seems that the board spends more time trying to study the mysteries and little time exploring the meaning of the scriptures and doctrine we already have. When I left my mission, Elder Spencer W Kimball gave me and the other missionary released at the same time a charge to go home and teach the basics of faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Over the years I have folowed this admonition and it is surprizing the insights available about these principles that can be found in the Standard works without even investigating commentaries. In fact the only commentary that I have in my personal library is Brant's "Second Witness". And that is only because of my long time interest in the Book of Mormon and the cultures of ancient America.

Larry P