Doctrinal? Wayward Children Restored In The Celestial Kingdom

[jana at jade house]

No, but I resolve it by taking it a step further: If parents are faithful, they will have their children under their wing in the eternities, no matter what kingdom the wayward children choose to enter. They will be able to commune and associate with them and love them just as they do now, but there are some places some people just won't be able to enter.

THIS! THIS resonates with my personally held beliefs, and makes sense. Thank you for this.

and thanks for all the thoughtful contributions to the discussion at hand. I really am overwhelmed with stuff this week and this one thing I shared here so others could help me think it through. thanks.

[SamIam]

THIS! THIS resonates with my personally held beliefs, and makes sense. Thank you for this.

and thanks for all the thoughtful contributions to the discussion at hand. I really am overwhelmed with stuff this week and this one thing I shared here so others could help me think it through. thanks.

I feel your joy...anytime I can get anything that resonates with my personally held beliefs amd makes sense at the same time - wow that's a great day.

[Brian 2.0]

I posted about this topic a while back. Some responses there may be of interest.

[Brian 2.0]

Here's the quotes i found that I used in that post. Boyd K Packer's 1992 talk is obviously more than just HP group speculation.

From Robert Millet's book "When a Child Wanders."

"The Holy One of Israel, who is the Mediator of the covenant, has promised that when a seal is placed upon a father and mother--a seal that comes through faithfulness to their eternal covenants--their children will be bound to them forever. Even if the children stray, the tentacles of the everlasting covenant will feel after them and they shall, either here or hereafter, return to the fold. We do not fully understand all of the implications of this marvelous promise, but we trust in the ransoming and redeeming power of our Lord who is also our Savior."

Quoting Lorenzo Snow:

"God has fulfilled his promises to us." President Lorenzo Snow explained, 'and our prospects are grand and glorious. Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters. If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time, for every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ. You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning in yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. In as much as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will have our posterity... God will accomplish his purposes in the salvation of His sons and daughters... " (Address delivered 6 Oct. 1893 in Collected Discourses, 3:36-65.)

This from Boyd K. Packer in 1992. Boyd K. Packer, “Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 66

The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)

We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)

Edited June 26, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[Brian 2.0]

No, but I resolve it by taking it a step further: If parents are faithful, they will have their children under their wing in the eternities, no matter what kingdom the wayward children choose to enter. They will be able to commune and associate with them and love them just as they do now, but there are some places some people just won't be able to enter.

This seems right to me, but I reverse may have some problems. If what you stated is the benefit, then it is not available to those who do not get sealed... which could be this scenario.

A married couple with children are taught by the missionaries and they convert. All the kids also covert, but their older child who's 16 years old doesn't want to get baptized. The couple is eventually sealed and their young children and believing children are sealed to them. Since they are NOT sealed to their oldest son, they will NOT "be able to commune and associate with them and love them just as they do now" no matter how faithful the parents are.

A solve for that could be a sealing is done for them later via proxy, but only if the son accepts that proxy work. And if he doesn't for some reason, the parents would not be able to commune and associate with him.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[CV75]

According to Doctrines of Salvation, "Little children who die, whose parents are not worthy of an exaltation, will be adopted in the

families of those who are worthy" (volume 2, page 56).

Regards,

Jim

Yes, that is the resolution for the opposite situation (worthy/faithful children of unworthy/wayward parents). I would speculate that it might be possible for such children, living in the celestial world, to visit parents in a lesser kingdom.

[CV75]

A solve for that could be a sealing is done for them later via proxy, but only if the son accepts that proxy work. And if he doesn't for some reason, the parents would not be able to commune and associate with him.

I think some measure of "visitation rights" might be available between unsealed parties as well. Inhabitants of the three kingdoms receive ministrations from the Father (celestial), The Son (terrestrial) and The Holy Ghost (telestial), evidently regardless of the sealing relationships we currently recognize. I'm sure godly parents won't condescend to visit children who do not welcome them, just as erstwhile friends won't come down to visit where they are not welcome by their more rebellious associates from this life.

However, there still might be some kind of one-way intelligence for those who still love and have an interest in their fellow beings (D&C 130:9).

[CV75]

A solve for that could be a sealing is done for them later via proxy, but only if the son accepts that proxy work. And if he doesn't for some reason, the parents would not be able to commune and associate with him.

I believe D&C 130:9 provides a form of one-way intelligence for those who still care for and are interested in their "unsealed" loved ones. While they may not be welcome to visit them in theri lower kingdom, they stil have the benefit of checking up on them, and even ministering to them unawares as follows: The higher of the three kingdoms also have means of ministering to the inhabitants of lesser kingdoms who may be without a sealing status (D&C 76:62, 77, 86, 87).

I suppose there comes a point of pedition where any such associations are not possible.

Sorry--I thoguht I lost the other post and had to re-write my thoughts! I hope no one goes "116 pages" on me!

Edited June 27, 2012 by CV75

[rpn]

I hope you packed the vial. I have children who I had spiritual confirmation were sent to me precisely to learn the gospel so they could recover from earlier wounds. They have rejected those teachings in part or full. But I am assured that they have a long time to find the comfort and peace. Your child is a fine young man, who will meet many people who will shape him. I don't think it is possible to say he had full knowledge and rejected it. I'm not sure there are very many on earth who are in that place where that is true. (But I do think the book of mormon warnings are intended to prompt thought of our own faithfulness.) Be patient. And faithful. Be sure that He knows and will hold both you and your son as tightly as you will allow.

[Brian 2.0]

this might be slightly off point, but I keep thinking about the difference between proxy sealings of parents to children and the sealings of parents children born in the covenant (or sealed to them before the age of eight)

Is there a difference between the two?

If a child is BIC and then falls away, has he broken that sealing? Does that sealing depend upon the faithfulness/acceptance of the child?

Edited June 27, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[Buzzard]

This post is intentionally vague, but I would posit that few among us really understand the power of both the Atonement and the sealing power of the priesthood. Both, it would seem, have the potential to be both eternal and universal.

[Calm]

Both, it would seem, have the potential to be both eternal and universal.

And that is about the second most comforting thought there is (that God is our loving father with all that implies is the first imo). Edited June 27, 2012 by calmoriah

[CV75]

this might be slightly off point, but I keep thinking about the difference between proxy sealings of parents to children and the sealings of parents children born in the covenant (or sealed to them before the age of eight)

Is there a difference between the two?

If a child is BIC and then falls away, has he broken that sealing? Does that sealing depend upon the faithfulness/acceptance of the child?

The only difference between the two, that I can see, is that the BIC form of sealing was administered before birth, and the live or proxy sealings are perfromed after mortal birth. In either case it is by one who has power to bind and loose on earth and in heaven.

I think any sealing has to be broken by one having this same sealing (and loosening) authority. We can break our covenants, and we can disregard the BIC status, but the sealing remains in place until removed by one having the authority to do so. This can be done on earth or in heaven, presumably through a formal ordinance.

"Trampled upon" or "mocked" but yet unbroken sealings may not be ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise and may remain ineffectual for one's own exaltation throughout eternity due to a lack of acknowledgement, respect, appreciation, obedience, etc. by the intended beneficiary, but I believe they are not "unsealed" until they are "loosed" (whether on earth or in heaven) by an ordinance.

Edited June 27, 2012 by CV75

[Tacenda]

My parents passed away a few years ago, one right after the other. My mom was devout LDS, my dad had no testimony at all but both had been sealed in the temple. For so long it bothered me that they might not be to together up there. Oh, yeah I thought, mom will be able to visit dad where ever he ends up, but it's not the same. So now my thinking or hope is that we're all together in one place. Basic as it sounds, I think there will be plenty to do, so what if we're all angels, I'd take that.

In most other faith systems there wouldn't be the conversation that there has been on this topic. They know they'll be with their loved ones in one place. The LDS believe families are forever, yes, but not always together, but in different kingdoms and some creating worlds without end.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Tacenda

[Peppermint Patty]

Very interesting topic. A few months ago, I posted a similar OP on this issue. There were some very interesting and insightful comments. Also, Nehor and Duncan commented.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56604-powerful-and-unbreakable-sealing-power-of-parents/page__p__1209077451__hl__+peppermint%20+patty#entry1209077451

[BCSpace]

I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.”

Sounds a lot like "Once saved always saved" (OSAS)

[Vanguard]

Great topic! I'll intermix my responses throughout...

Often, a conversation between me and LDS leadership turns into a conversation about the stiffnecked folks in my family circle (to whom I wish people would talk directly) and how I should... because.... This time it was a kind stake rep who was arranging my release from the stake calling of teacher in Seminary. Apparently, he hasn't been paying attention because he did not know about son David's withdrawal from all things Godly almost a year ago) and he ran through all the same gamut of which I am growing quite weary of...but I remain polite: after all they have a duty.

Then this lovely man decided to give me comfort in his way. And that included the theory posited by I forget who that if a parent is faithful, the child will be restored to the family in the Celestial kingdom.

Who's to say what a "faithful" parent looks like? Can I repent of my sins after the damage is done with my children and still have this promise?

Now, I have heard it before, and, I don't know where to find the specific text people use when they make this claim. I have a fundamental problem with the theory and as I blundered away in front of the Stake prep, I realized I had better pull up my socks and prepare better for the next time someone runs this across my bow. Because it sounds like wishful thinking to me.

I believe it is more than wishful thinking. Where are we taught that it does not matter what our children become as long as we were faithful? It sounds like delusional thinking to me. I believe my children will get what's coming to them based on their own capacities and nothing more. Did I have an influence on said capacity? Sure I did. But to think that as a result I can insure their "entrance through the pearlies" is unfounded.

Even the text we studied in Alma recently teaches that because the people Alma was teaching in chapters 9-12 were once in full possession of the truth and turned away, they were in greater jeopardy and would be judged far differently than the Lamanites, a people who had been raised with false traditions.

All this text states is that with more knowledge comes a greater capacity for good. Didn't we already know this? How does this shed any light on your situation? Your kids got more knowledge about the gospel - assuming you gave them this - and are therefore more responsible for their actions. Does it mean they won't enjoy the fullness of the Father's blessings? Who's to say? Do you know their capacity? You may know more than the average bear but you are not in full possession of this info and in fact far from it.

I also have a firm conviction based on any one of many scripture texts that teach, mercy and grace notwithstanding, who your parents are matters not one whit if you are unrepentant : see one third of our Perfect Parents' offspring.

You're right - it does not matter one whit. Nor is their unrepentent attitude an accurate indicator of their blessings in the hereafter.

But this brother was just as convinced that MY faithfulness will restore my children to a state of grace qualified for the Celestial Kingdom. Frankly, I don't want the burden. I have enough to do just perfecting myself, you know?

I wouldn't want the burden either though I believe my capacity is irrelevant to what will happen to my own children. This kind of thinking is frustrating. Just recently I was told by the general leadership that I am responsible for inactive brethren who stay out of the church who might have otherwise reactivated had I made a better effort. I don't care for this line of reasoning and I believe it is faulty.

My faithfulness might keep them from Outer Darkness, and like the Prodigal Son's father, I will welcome them whole heartedly if they repent but once they have frittered away their inheritance, they don't get "all that the Father hath" times two.

I believe Outer Darkness is irrelevant to their situation. We haven't accurate enough ideas as to whether another "qualifies" for OD. How do you know whether they have "frittered away" their inheritance? How do you know what that inheritance is?

Am I way out in left field yet again?

Perhaps but then again you might understand our relation to God much better than your stake rep does.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Vanguard