John Dehlin - Why They Leave

[Calm]

I have no idea what lds authors have said about past prophets when they have published their books with Desseret. I would hope that their polygamy practices were mentioned. But someone who has the books can tell more.

Depends on what is meant by "lds published". Church Distribution has little mentioned of plural marriage relationships, there is some in the Church History in the Fulness of Times Institute manual. I can't think of any other specific details given.

As far as bios published, I don't have any recent ones published by church owned publishing companies as I go for more academic versions, but I have some older ones that mention it. Looking at deseretbook.com, if there aren't some of the books they carry and/or publish that mention it in detail, I would be shocked. For example they have a book that is a collection of 100 bios of LDS women, some of which were plural wives. add-on: just found RSR online and I know for sure that has it.

I find their selection for the subject "polygamy" strange except for one book, (actually this following book is just available, not on the polygamy topic page, neither is this one: http://deseretbook.com/Sister-Wives-Suffragists-Polygamy-Politics-Woman-Suffrage-1870-1896-Lola-Van-Wagenen/i/b3037 so either they got a strange way of deciding what goes were or the guy who does the categorizing is an idiot ) one is the Setting the Record Straight which I have read and it's not bad, I like the use of the first person accounts, wish there were more of them, and then this one which IIRC should be good: http://bookshelf.deseretbook.com/book/1108

Edited June 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[why me]

but I have some older ones that mention it.

I thought so too. I cannot see lds authors ignoring it. I hope that tacenda understands that it is written about in books published by desseret books.

[Calm]

I thought so too. I cannot see lds authors ignoring it. I hope that tacenda understands that it is written about in books published by desseret books.

When I mean older, I mean older...as in ones I got from my grandmother's collection (and they may be Bookcraft...same thing sort of). Deseretbook owns several publishing companies and it doesn't identify online what publishing company each book is from and last, it's been too long since I worked at the bookstore where I could just pull out the DB order form to figure out what they produced themselves.

One "s" in Deseret, btw.

LDS authors, as in active members, do not automatically ignore polygamy. There are a number of books out there that do deal with polygamy in detail that are by faithful LDS. I mention a couple above.

Here's some more: http://deseretbook.com/Mormon-Polygamous-Families-Life-Principle-Jessie-L-Embry/i/5000991

http://deseretbook.com/Whirlpool-Pre-Manifesto-Letters-President-Wilford-Woodruff-William-Atkin-Family-1885-1890-Reid-L-Neilson/i/5062550

http://deseretbook.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith-Linda-K-Newell/i/2708518 (listed, but not available....hmmm)

http://deseretbook.com/Within-These-Prison-Walls-Lorenzo-Snows-Record-Book-1886-1897-Andrew-H-Hedges/i/5048555

http://deseretbook.com/Best-St-Louis-Luminary-Susan-Easton-Black/i/5061685

http://deseretbook.com/Mormonism-Very-Short-Introduction-Richard-L-Bushman/i/5015221

http://deseretbook.com/After-Martyrdom-What-Happened-Family-Joseph-Smith-Jerald-R-Johansen/i/3431838

Quite a number more. Of course there are some that do not mention polygamy, I am sure. The only one I know for sure is a book by Gracia Jones about Emma and Lucy that a reviewer mentions never talking about polygamy. She also wrote one about Emma and Joseph which an amazon.com reviewer says ignores polygamy as well and skirts the controversial stuff. With her it is understandable, she is a descendant of Emma and Joseph, feels very connected to Emma and writes from a very personal viewpoint (at least from what I have read from her) and IIRC, is a convert so she may feel disconnected from that aspect of their lives.

Edited June 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[Maestrophil]

Tacenda,

I find it refreshing that you are expressing somewhat of a desire to retain your testimony. I have seen my whole family exodus from the gospel and the church, and I am the last one of my family to remain LDS. I encountered just about every argument, 'fact', and reson for leaving the church. I saw my family deal with much anger, and hostility towards me and the church and it hurt all of us a lot.

I just want you to know that you are not the only one who has felt this 'dissillusionment' and that there ARE those who do know these things, and have figured out spiritual AND intellectual answers to most questions and have regained a (while different than it used to be) faith.

My prayers and thoughts are with you. If you ever need support beyond the open forum... PM me anytime! :-)

I feel members oftern have a knee-jerk reaction when we see other members question or falter, and we can make those members feel badly for having doubts or faith issues. You are no less worthy or important because you are at an impasse. Hold on and remember what you love about the church. There will come a time you will bless the day you decided to stay - I bless that day in my life.

Phillip

Edited June 28, 2012 by Maestrophil

[wenglund]

This FAIR article is proof JS tried polyandry and if you go to the FAIR website it has one for polygamy also. I hope it's ok with Calmoriah that I shared it with you. Thanks for the article, Cal. I thought it was very factual and I appreciate something that isn't made up like the one bookofmormonluvr provided.

I don't think the church tries to necessarily hide this but it really isn't taught either. It hurts people like me that have to "accidently" run onto it while surfing the internet for geneology purposes about 5 years ago, btw. And it's not fun to learn of it when I'm old enough to know better. But with our previous church historian, Marlin K. Jensen's help I think the church is going to introduce these facts through the CES to the younger generation so they don't feel conned at first like I did. I'm alot less angry now. Especially after reading the apologetic answer from FAIR, so honest!

I value your sentiment, and am very pleased that your anger has subsided.

I think, though, it is also helpful to remember that not all testimony jolts and challenges are a bad thing. There is a reason the Father has sent his children into the lone and dreary world rather than a padded and highly protected playroom. Turmoil and pain can, at times, be wonderful educators, and a well rounded stone often gets that way from many knocks and chisels.

What is key, to me, is not so much being freed from challenges, but how we respond to the challenges.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Tacenda,

I find it refreshing that you are expressing somewhat of a desire to retain your testimony. I have seen my whole family exodus from the gospel and the church, and I am the last one of my family to remain LDS. I encountered just about every argument, 'fact', and reson for leaving the church. I saw my family deal with much anger, and hostility towards me and the church and it hurt all of us a lot.

I just want you to know that you are not the only one who has felt this 'dissillusionment' and that there ARE those who do know these things, and have figured out spiritual AND intellectual answers to most questions and have regained a (while different than it used to be) faith.

My prayers and thoughts are with you. If you ever need support beyond the open forum... PM me anytime! :-)

I feel members oftern have a knee-jerk reaction when we see other members question or falter, and we can make those members feel badly for having doubts or faith issues. You are no less worthy or important because you are at an impasse. Hold on and remember what you love about the church. There will come a time you will bless the day you decided to stay - I bless that day in my life.

Phillip

I value your sentiment, and am very pleased that your anger has subsided.

I think, though, it is also helpful to remember that not all testimony jolts and challenges are a bad thing. There is a reason the Father has sent his children into the lone and dreary world rather than a padded and highly protected playroom. Turmoil and pain can, at times, be wonderful educators, and a well rounded stone often gets that way from many knocks and chisels.

What is key, to me, is not so much being freed from challenges, but how we respond to the challenges.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's people like yourselves that keep me on the fence, or I'd have left the church long ago. And the members surrounding me that have alot of goodness. I have doubts because of the questionable things that went on in the beginning of the church but know that it's a young church and getting the kinks out as it goes along. Maybe someday I'll hop to your side of the fence. I know it'd save alot of heartache if I did. It's that nagging thought process that Satan is deceiving the elect in the last days, and I guess listening to the Evangelicals say we believe in the wrong Jesus. It's that rhetoric that's become a deterrant. Yes and I'll admit the shows like Shawn McRaney, the shows like Polygamy, What Love is This, etc don't help at all! I know if I'd just stayed away from them and listened to GC talks, read my scriptures, and prayed more then I could have maintained the testimony. But once you learn about things that seem immoral or just not in keeping with the Lord's way, it's hard to go back. I love the MD&D board for it's neutrality and letting people like me on here.

[wenglund]

It's people like yourselves that keep me on the fence, or I'd have left the church long ago. And the members surrounding me that have alot of goodness. I have doubts because of the questionable things that went on in the beginning of the church but know that it's a young church and getting the kinks out as it goes along. Maybe someday I'll hop to your side of the fence. I know it'd save alot of heartache if I did. It's that nagging thought process that Satan is deceiving the elect in the last days, and I guess listening to the Evangelicals say we believe in the wrong Jesus. It's that rhetoric that's become a deterrant. Yes and I'll admit the shows like Shawn McRaney, the shows like Polygamy, What Love is This, etc don't help at all! I know if I'd just stayed away from them and listened to GC talks, read my scriptures, and prayed more then I could have maintained the testimony. But once you learn about things that seem immoral or just not in keeping with the Lord's way, it's hard to go back. I love the MD&D board for it's neutrality and letting people like me on here.

That was nice of you to say, and at the same time encouraging. You seem like a very good and decent person, and I think as long as you stay close with your Heavenly Father, and continue to avail yourself of the Holy Ghost that you have been given as a gift, and you are predominantly looking for good and for doing good, there really is nothing to worry about.

And, if it is of any consolation, I often read and listen to and get a lot from other faith traditions, including Evangelicals--and this as a part of the LDS edict to "seek out of the best books," and "if there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." So, in that respect I would encourage you to pursue your current interest.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

It's people like yourselves that keep me on the fence, or I'd have left the church long ago. And the members surrounding me that have alot of goodness. I have doubts because of the questionable things that went on in the beginning of the church but know that it's a young church and getting the kinks out as it goes along. Maybe someday I'll hop to your side of the fence. I know it'd save alot of heartache if I did. It's that nagging thought process that Satan is deceiving the elect in the last days, and I guess listening to the Evangelicals say we believe in the wrong Jesus. It's that rhetoric that's become a deterrant. Yes and I'll admit the shows like Shawn McRaney, the shows like Polygamy, What Love is This, etc don't help at all! I know if I'd just stayed away from them and listened to GC talks, read my scriptures, and prayed more then I could have maintained the testimony. But once you learn about things that seem immoral or just not in keeping with the Lord's way, it's hard to go back. I love the MD&D board for it's neutrality and letting people like me on here.

OK as I understand it things,ws that you see as wrong with the early church, as measured by your modern day sensibilities and lack of complete information, presented by those who have every desire to present it in the most damaging light, are very close to out weighing any spiritual confirmation you have received from the Holy Ghost. Is that correct? If that is the case are you willing to give up religion altogether and go atheist? Because if you are not then to me you are not being consistent. I find the actions and deeds of biblical prophets much more problematic than early LDS Church leadership. The thing that keeps me on track is my spiritual experiences and the LDS church. First my spiritual experiences keep reminding me there is something beyond what I can see with my eyes and the LDS church gives me a logical believable frame work for understanding it. I do not hold Joseph Smith and the rest of the modern prophets to a higher standard than those in the Bible. I also do not hold early church members to a higher stander than say the sons of Israel. And I hold neither to the standard of modern US of A standards. The lived at different times.

[Tacenda]

That was nice of you to say, and at the same time encouraging. You seem like a very good and decent person, and I think as long as you stay close with your Heavenly Father, and continue to avail yourself of the Holy Ghost that you have been given as a gift, and you are predominantly looking for good and for doing good, there really is nothing to worry about.

And, if it is of any consolation, I often read and listen to and get a lot from other faith traditions, including Evangelicals--and this as a part of the LDS edict to "seek out of the best books," and "if there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." So, in that respect I would encourage you to pursue your current interest.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You're going to make me cry now. Thanks from the bottom of my heart.

[Tacenda]

OK as I understand it things,ws that you see as wrong with the early church, as measured by your modern day sensibilities and lack of complete information, presented by those who have every desire to present it in the most damaging light, are very close to out weighing any spiritual confirmation you have received from the Holy Ghost. Is that correct? If that is the case are you willing to give up religion altogether and go atheist? Because if you are not then to me you are not being consistent. I find the actions and deeds of biblical prophets much more problematic than early LDS Church leadership. The thing that keeps me on track is my spiritual experiences and the LDS church. First my spiritual experiences keep reminding me there is something beyond what I can see with my eyes and the LDS church gives me a logical believable frame work for understanding it. I do not hold Joseph Smith and the rest of the modern prophets to a higher standard than those in the Bible. I also do not hold early church members to a higher stander than say the sons of Israel. And I hold neither to the standard of modern US of A standards. The lived at different times.

I agree, wholeheartedly. I'm still chugging here. And I know that there is a danger of becoming athiest. Just like the danger of me looking into places that could damage an LDS testimony. I know it all narrows down to faith and the spirit.

[ERayR]

I agree, wholeheartedly. I'm still chugging here. And I know that there is a danger of becoming athiest. Just like the danger of me looking into places that could damage an LDS testimony. I know it all narrows down to faith and the spirit.

Just remember those spiritual manifestations that brought you to the LDS faith in the first place. Are you praying? It helps. In fact it is probably the key to the whole thing.

Edited June 28, 2012 by ERayR

[why me]

Yes and I'll admit the shows like Shawn McRaney, the shows like Polygamy, What Love is This, etc don't help at all! I know if I'd just stayed away from them and listened to GC talks, read my scriptures, and prayed more then I could have maintained the testimony. But once you learn about things that seem immoral or just not in keeping with the Lord's way, it's hard to go back. I love the MD&D board for it's neutrality and letting people like me on here.

These people wish to create doubt in mormon minds. And of course, they do benefit in doing so. Some members head to Shawn's church. The lds church is rather simple: the book of mormon, the 11 witnesses, the first vision, emma and the early orgainzation of the church and its success against all odds. And praying about the book of mormon to receive a witness of it.

All the rest is fluff. The witnesses make a strong case. Something happened to them because although some left the church, they could not leave it alone. And at the end of their lives, they reconfirmed their testimonies. That speaks much in favor of the book of mormon. And then we have the book. How we got it is the question: is it what it claims to be? Or did someone write it as a fraud and if so, who wrote it? A lot of strange things were happening during the translation process. How to write a book with a head stuck in a hat?

What is the lord's way?

[why me]

and I guess listening to the Evangelicals say we believe in the wrong Jesus.

The lds certainly believe in a loving heavenly father. In fact, the lds heavenly father is extremely personable, something tangible. And the 'lds jesus' is also very personable. So, the lds have two personable personages to help them through life. Not bad at all. And the lds certainly love both because they attempt to live by the commandments that God has given them to live by. Not bad.

[why me]

I don't think the church tries to necessarily hide this but it really isn't taught either. It hurts people like me that have to "accidently" run onto it while surfing the internet for geneology purposes about 5 years ago, btw. And it's not fun to learn of it when I'm old enough to know better.

I don't know how it can be taught. What would be the context? How to introduce it to a lesson? What would be the reason? What I find interesting about JS's polygamous wives is the witness that they experienced when they prayed about it. These women were no pushovers and at times it took a long time for them to say yes. And many did so only because of receiving that witness. But how to teach in sunday school or relief society or priesthood. What would be the pretext?

[why me]

Yes, and Joseph Smith would tell many of the pre "wives" or "sealed women" whatever the case, that their whole family would be sealed to him and go to the highest kingdom if they submit to being sealed or married to him.

I think submit is a strong word. He told them the principle and they were free to choose to say yes or say no. And some said no. Nancy Rigdon, as an example. And Joseph also asked the woman's family if it were okay if their relative would be sealed to him. It was quite a democratic decision. But for most of these women, being sealed to JS was an honor and when they died, if they moved to Utah, their tombstone had the name of Smith as their last name.

[juliann]

I don't think the church tries to necessarily hide this but it really isn't taught either. It hurts people like me that have to "accidently" run onto it while surfing the internet for geneology purposes about 5 years ago, btw. And it's not fun to learn of it when I'm old enough to know better. But with our previous church historian, Marlin K. Jensen's help I think the church is going to introduce these facts through the CES to the younger generation so they don't feel conned at first like I did. I'm alot less angry now. Especially after reading the apologetic answer from FAIR, so honest!

I can't disagree with you. It is the women who are being left out....by both sides. Those not friendly to the church are constantly treating the polygamous wives as if they were intellectually challenged dupes. I honor these women enough that I take their word for it....and the better known participants defended polygamy regardless of how challenging and unfair it was to them.

I think the real problem with polygamy is that we have far too many speaking for modern prophets by proclaiming lots of wimmen is the default position of the Lord and that is what the CK will be....a bizillion women and a handful of men. (Ask those who do this for a statement from any modern prophet saying anything close to what they are creating and you will be met with dead silence.) Valerie Hudson wrote a wonderful article comparing it to the Abrahamic sacrifice....which will not be repeated throughout eternity. I tend to think polygamy had more of a community building purpose than spiritual one which is why it is on the Lord's rare exception only list (and I do not consider the rest of our existence to be built on a rare exception).

So once that is out of the way, early polygamy becomes a historical interest and it is easier to get the emotion out of it. Plus, it is really cool to be able to say I came from polygamists. :-)

[juliann]

I don't know how it can be taught. What would be the context? How to introduce it to a lesson? What would be the reason? What I find interesting about JS's polygamous wives is the witness that they experienced when they prayed about it. These women were no pushovers and at times it took a long time for them to say yes. And many did so only because of receiving that witness. But how to teach in sunday school or relief society or priesthood. What would be the pretext?

The same pretext that brings in any wife of a prophet. Why are these wives completely lost to history when they were just as much a wife as the one mentioned in the manual? To give them equal status as wives does not require a thesis on the reason and scope of polygamy.

[cwald]

I can't disagree with you. It is the women who are being left out....by both sides. Those not friendly to the church are constantly treating the polygamous wives as if they were intellectually challenged dupes. I honor these women enough that I take their word for it....and the better known participants defended polygamy regardless of how challenging and unfair it was to them.

I think the real problem with polygamy is that we have far too many speaking for modern prophets by proclaiming lots of wimmen is the default position of the Lord and that is what the CK will be....a bizillion women and a handful of men. (Ask those who do this for a statement from any modern prophet saying anything close to what they are creating and you will be met with dead silence.) Valerie Hudson wrote a wonderful article comparing it to the Abrahamic sacrifice....which will not be repeated throughout eternity. I tend to think polygamy had more of a community building purpose than spiritual one which is why it is on the Lord's rare exception only list (and I do not consider the rest of our existence to be built on a rare exception).

So once that is out of the way, early polygamy becomes a historical interest and it is easier to get the emotion out of it. Plus, it is really cool to be able to say I came from polygamists. :-)

I think this is VERY well said. Thank you for helping me see the issue from a different angle.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Read Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. Many answers are there. This book could have been bought from Desseret three years ago. But you can perhaps find the paperback in bookshops.

http://en.wikipedia....h_Stone_Rolling

http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/1400042704

We still have lots of copies of it in our Deseret Book store....the saints here ain't interested in our history......

[why me]

We still have lots of copies of it in our Deseret Book store....the saints here ain't interested in our history......

Until they read something on the Internet and then they just may claim that the church hides its history. It is just one of those things.

[why me]

The same pretext that brings in any wife of a prophet. Why are these wives completely lost to history when they were just as much a wife as the one mentioned in the manual? To give them equal status as wives does not require a thesis on the reason and scope of polygamy.

You have a point. However, even in the Presidents of the Church manuals, women play a back seat. But then again, what can be said about them from a teaching point of view? We have very little personal lives of the prophets lessons that focus on anyone's personal life outside of what they taught or wrote.

To put your focus into sunday meetings, the manual would have to be rewritten, focusing on the personal more between the couples. And certainly more can be said in Relief Society outside of a more wifey role.

[why me]

I can't disagree with you. It is the women who are being left out....by both sides. Those not friendly to the church are constantly treating the polygamous wives as if they were intellectually challenged dupes.

And this is a critical part of an exmo's enlightenment: how they consider the polygamous women dupes and idiots without personal willpower. If these women would come back from the dead, they just may slap the exmos around a little.

Edited June 29, 2012 by why me

[Libs]

I can't disagree with you. It is the women who are being left out....by both sides. Those not friendly to the church are constantly treating the polygamous wives as if they were intellectually challenged dupes. I honor these women enough that I take their word for it....and the better known participants defended polygamy regardless of how challenging and unfair it was to them.

I think the real problem with polygamy is that we have far too many speaking for modern prophets by proclaiming lots of wimmen is the default position of the Lord and that is what the CK will be....a bizillion women and a handful of men. (Ask those who do this for a statement from any modern prophet saying anything close to what they are creating and you will be met with dead silence.) Valerie Hudson wrote a wonderful article comparing it to the Abrahamic sacrifice....which will not be repeated throughout eternity. I tend to think polygamy had more of a community building purpose than spiritual one which is why it is on the Lord's rare exception only list (and I do not consider the rest of our existence to be built on a rare exception).

So once that is out of the way, early polygamy becomes a historical interest and it is easier to get the emotion out of it. Plus, it is really cool to be able to say I came from polygamists. :-)

Very interesting post, Juliann. Great points. Thanks!