John Dehlin - Why They Leave

[Tacenda]

I feel like that kid who is in the middle of two parents fighting over them. I took my "big girl" pill and moved on. I realise the problem I've created and feel sorry for anything I may have said here that may seem to put down the church.

[cwald]

For some reason the tone of this just comes across as offensive and you wonder why people get their backs up. We've had many posters on here who have different beliefs but with whom we can have pleasant discussions. It's all in the way its said.

Don't lecture me about being offensive and rude....not after what I've experience on this board from some of the regulars. What is good for the goose is good for gander. Cal has been nothing but rude to me...so deal with it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

All my problems started with finding out Joseph had several wives and married other men's wives.

I don't agree with Storm's response to you.

How ever I need to ask you. Is a sealing the same as a marriage?

[Calm]

I took my "big girl" pill and moved on.

Those can be tough going down sometimes.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I feel like that kid who is in the middle of two parents fighting over them. I took my "big girl" pill and moved on. I realise the problem I've created and feel sorry for anything I may have said here that may seem to put down the church.

I am trying to have a discussion with you. So far you seemed to have ignored my posts to you.

Look, a lot of how you are treated is a reflection of how you have treated us here. Anyway as you said lets move on and see if we can help each other out.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Don't lecture me about being offensive and rude....not after what I've experience on this board from some of the regulars. What is good for the goose is good for gander. Cal has been nothing but rude to me...so deal with it.

CFR please. I would love to see the context of her being rude.

[Calm]

I knew if I worked hard enough at it, I could beat Pahoran and selek out for the tough guy spot on the board.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Me and my cronies.....love it.

Cronies? Lol Yeah I am a crony of Cal.

[Calm]

I would love to see the context of her being rude.

Doesn't it go without saying? When am I not rude?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Doesn't it go without saying? When am I not rude?

Oh my bad. Yes repent you rude rudy.

[Calm]

I think I am going to ask Dan if I can borrow his Ming the Merciless avatar while he's out of town.

[Calm]

Cronies? Lol Yeah I am a crony of Cal.

You and me and Deborah (sorry about the dress, I promise you can wear pants next time):

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Or do you prefer this one: http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rma/lowres/rman12005l.jpg

[Tacenda]

I don't agree with Storm's response to you.

How ever I need to ask you. Is a sealing the same as a marriage?

I've read that Joseph did consummate some of the marriages and did have marriage ceremonies. If it is commanded that we have polygamy in D&C 132, why wouldn't he consummate them? If the soul purpose is to provide righteous seed.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

I've read that Joseph did consummate some of the marriages and did have marriage ceremonies. If it is commanded that we have polygamy in D&C 132, why wouldn't he consummate them? If the soul purpose is to provide righteous seed.

You are assuming facts not in evidence. It is not necessarily so that the sole purpose is to raise a righteous seed. And you are also conflating sealing with marriage, which is also not accurate.

[Tacenda]

You are assuming facts not in evidence. It is not necessarily so that the sole purpose is to raise a righteous seed. And you are also conflating sealing with marriage, which is also not accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_wives_of_Joseph_Smith#List_of_wives

[ERayR]

I knew if I worked hard enough at it, I could beat Pahoran and selek out for the tough guy spot on the board.

Don't be in too big of a hurry to claim victory. A single episode does not a trend make.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I've read that Joseph did consummate some of the marriages and did have marriage ceremonies. If it is commanded that we have polygamy in D&C 132, why wouldn't he consummate them? If the soul purpose is to provide righteous seed.

It is not commanded to have polygamy per D&C 132. That is were you seem to have a misunderstanding.

And it is not the sole purpose to provider righteous seed. That is but part of it. JS did consummate some of his "marriages".

How ever you still did not answer my question. Is a sealing the same as a marriage?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

http://en.wikipedia....h#List_of_wives

Ugh. I see you are really not wanting a discussion. Oh well here is to hope.

[ERayR]

http://en.wikipedia....h#List_of_wives

I am aware of Josephs plural wives and sealings.

A list of Josephs wives do not address what I posted. I am well aware that he was married to other wives and sealed to yet others. However, as I remember the DNA test results on all the supposed posterity, that have been found, has come up negative.

You have not addressed that the sole purpose of plural marriage is for the raising of righteous seed. Nor have you addressed the idea that sealing and marriage are not synonymous.

[Deborah]

Cal, I like the old ladies.

[wenglund]

Don't lecture me about being offensive and rude....not after what I've experience on this board from some of the regulars. What is good for the goose is good for gander. Cal has been nothing but rude to me...so deal with it.

I appreciate the polite and endearing way you phrased this. It leaves no doubt that whatever faults there may be, they lay elsewhere, This is a credit to the depths of your self-awreness and healthy self-reflection. [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Senator]

And you are also conflating sealing with marriage, which is also not accurate.

It is accurate in todays doctrine. So, I could see the possible confusion.

[cwald]

I appreciate the polite and endearing way you phrased this. It leaves no doubt that whatever faults there may be, they lay elsewhere, This is a credit to the depths of your self-awreness and healthy self-reflection. [thumbs up]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You are most welcome sir.

Edited June 26, 2012 by cwald

[Tacenda]

It is not commanded to have polygamy per D&C 132. That is were you seem to have a misunderstanding.

And it is not the sole purpose to provider righteous seed. That is but part of it. JS did consummate some of his "marriages".

How ever you still did not answer my question. Is a sealing the same as a marriage?

http://www.lds.org/s...dc/132?lang=eng

Heading of Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

If you read through the paragraphs the 19th one speaks about the "seed". And in several of the rest of the paragraphs, there were commandments that Joseph have plural wives. It might take time to read through. But it is self explanatory.

And to answer your question on sealing/marriage here is a quote from a church leader...found here... http://mormontemples...marriagesealing

One Church leader described the covenants made and blessings promised via a temple marriage/sealing:

1. Individual covenants and blessings. Each of you will individually and separately make promises, commitments, and covenants with your Heavenly Father and will individually receive promises of blessings conditioned on your individual worthiness. The individual nature of these promises is such that even if one of you were to cease being obedient following your participation in the sealing ordinance and so lose the promises made to you, the other partner who remained faithful would continue to be eligible to receive the promised blessings.

2. Joint covenants and blessings. The two of you jointly will make promises, commitments, and covenants with your Heavenly Father and will make covenants to receive each other as husband and wife. You then will jointly receive promises of blessings conditioned upon your joint faithfulness. The continued faithful obedience of both of you is essential if the promised blessings are to be received jointly. This is because the promises are made to you as one—that is, as a single unit consisting of two halves.

3. Joining in celestial marriage. This element qualifies you to live together as husband and wife under the laws of the land. It is here that you are united forever, becoming one flesh before the Lord and forming a new family unit that, if you are faithful and obedient, will last forever.

4. Blessings for children born in the covenant. All children born to the two of you are born under the blessings of the sealing covenant; thus, it is common to say that your children are “born in the covenant.” They are entitled to blessings of the Abrahamic covenant, including:

a. The gospel

b. The priesthood

c. Celestial marriage

d. Eternal life

It is revealing to know that even if the two of you cease to be faithful in keeping the covenants you make in the temple, these blessings will still flow to your children. It is equally comforting to know the Lord has provided that adopted children and children born to a couple before they are sealed in the temple (as with new converts to the Church) may be sealed to their parents, and upon such sealing they also become entitled to these same promises and blessings (Kofford, June 1998).

Edited June 26, 2012 by Tacenda