John Dehlin - Why They Leave

[Deborah]

Do you think that the show "Sister Wives" is more in line with how we would be if it were still a practiced doctrine? Have you ever had any kind of nagging thought that these factions are living JS church and we are the apostate church?

You've been reading Alan Rock Waterman's site or one of the many other apostate groups who teach the church is in apostasy and the true Priesthood is out there somewhere. Read again the quote by Brigham Young where he himself says that the time may come when the Lord will remove polygamy. Furthermore both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have said the Priesthood will not be taken from the earth again. The keys have not been removed from the church; there has been an unbroken line and it is impossible that the Priesthood could be lost given all the men who have held it and the quorums who have also hold the keys as a quorum (see Section 107). The prophet is the Lord's to deal with and in the history of the scriptures it is not the prophets who went into apostasy but the people who failed to listen to the living prophets.

Joseph Smith said: “I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” (History of the Church, 3:385; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 2, 1839, in Montrose, Iowa; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards.)

[ERayR]

I guess I read the anti mormon slant. Thanks for the pro LDS view. I long for the faith you have that once was held by myself. Thanks for the example.

In the kindest sort of way. If you long for that kind of faith again stop imagining or accepting the worst kind of motives for the actions of the prophets and apostles from Joseph Smith to present. When you hear one of those ask yourself where it came from/through and what is the real story. You will find it is never as bad as some make it sound and probably isn't as benign as others would have you believe but it should never be faith destroying.

[Tacenda]

You've been reading Alan Rock Waterman's site or one of the many other apostate groups who teach the church is in apostasy and the true Priesthood is out there somewhere. Read again the quote by Brigham Young where he himself says that the time may come when the Lord will remove polygamy. Furthermore both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have said the Priesthood will not be taken from the earth again. The keys have not been removed from the church; there has been an unbroken line and it is impossible that the Priesthood could be lost given all the men who have held it and the quorums who have also hold the keys as a quorum (see Section 107). The prophet is the Lord's to deal with and in the history of the scriptures it is not the prophets who went into apostasy but the people who failed to listen to the living prophets.

Joseph Smith said: “I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” (History of the Church, 3:385; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 2, 1839, in Montrose, Iowa; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards.)

I've never heard of Alan Rock Waterman. But I have watched "Polygamy, What Love is This?" So just as anti I believe. But polygamy is what blew part of my testimony away, so I'm always trying to get to the bottom of things. It's almost like being unable to move until I get some answers. I guess I need my faith to be based on some facts now vs. the opposite.

[rameumptom]

Tacenda, if you were reading your Book of Mormon, you would see page after page of teachings regarding a relationship with God and Christ, being born again (see Alma 5 as one instance), and the importance of atonement and grace in our lives (see Mosiah 2-5 as one instance).

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, if you were reading your Book of Mormon, you would see page after page of teachings regarding a relationship with God and Christ, being born again (see Alma 5 as one instance), and the importance of atonement and grace in our lives (see Mosiah 2-5 as one instance).

I have and do see that the BOM is really no different than what the bible teaches. And you are definitely more adept at scripture reading than I. But from the research I've done and since acquiring a copy of the 1830 BOM, I've found Joseph Smith to have changed his mind on some things, when he adds to the BOM. It is now Jesus is the "son of God" vs. "Jesus is God". I think the BOM reads alot like the bible. But why the changes? It would make my life so much easier if we believed in the Trinity like Joseph once did (IMHO!). Then there wouldn't be a division among us. There wouldn't be a division in our own church. Dividing families up, when some go astray etc. I guess men want the knowledge they'll be Gods one day. Ok, sorry, that they'll be like God one day. Hopefully I haven't lost your respect with these feelings I'm having.

[rameumptom]

I do not like the concept of polygamy. I do not like the history of MMM. I do not like the history of LDS racism towards blacks and the priesthood. That said, they are distractors. The real questions are: Did God call Joseph Smith to be a prophet? Is Thomas S Monson the true prophet of God today? Is the Book of Mormon the word of God?

If these are true, then we have our testimony. We do not have to like the past things the Lord has commanded or that man has done. On learning about plural marriage Brigham Young wished he could trade places with a dead man in a funeral passing by, while Heber C Kimball told Joseph he would pray about it - if it were true he would embrace it, but if it were not of God, he was returning to kill Joseph. Of those young women and married women that Joseph was sealed to - they all prayed about it and received their own heavenly manifestation that it was a true concept. Should we be so judgmental today, simply because we have not gained such a testimony ourselves?

So the scriptures are written by a bunch of men, so what? Do you suppose that God doesn't understand women as well as men, simply because he's a man? Do you suppose that one set of commandments or teachings does not apply to other persons? I am not a Hebrew, so should I feel that the scriptures just do not apply/relate to me as a Germanic white male? Can you not personalize the scriptures, or "liken them unto" yourself? Do you feel that Jesus, being a man, cannot understand you enough to atone for your sins, comfort you when you hurt, or heal your pains? This is one area in which I think the feminist movement does a major disservice for women, in causing them to think that men (which includes God) cannot understand them at all. Principles are principles, love is love, kindness is kindness, etc. We should look at what the scriptures give to each of us, even if they do not perfectly fit us.

We do not have to like nor agree with everything to have a testimony. We just have to be humble enough to ask sincerely, and without allowing distractions and personal agendae to get in the way of God's answer.

[Tacenda]

I do not like the concept of polygamy. I do not like the history of MMM. I do not like the history of LDS racism towards blacks and the priesthood. That said, they are distractors. The real questions are: Did God call Joseph Smith to be a prophet? Is Thomas S Monson the true prophet of God today? Is the Book of Mormon the word of God?

If these are true, then we have our testimony. We do not have to like the past things the Lord has commanded or that man has done. On learning about plural marriage Brigham Young wished he could trade places with a dead man in a funeral passing by, while Heber C Kimball told Joseph he would pray about it - if it were true he would embrace it, but if it were not of God, he was returning to kill Joseph. Of those young women and married women that Joseph was sealed to - they all prayed about it and received their own heavenly manifestation that it was a true concept. Should we be so judgmental today, simply because we have not gained such a testimony ourselves?

So the scriptures are written by a bunch of men, so what? Do you suppose that God doesn't understand women as well as men, simply because he's a man? Do you suppose that one set of commandments or teachings does not apply to other persons? I am not a Hebrew, so should I feel that the scriptures just do not apply/relate to me as a Germanic white male? Can you not personalize the scriptures, or "liken them unto" yourself? Do you feel that Jesus, being a man, cannot understand you enough to atone for your sins, comfort you when you hurt, or heal your pains? This is one area in which I think the feminist movement does a major disservice for women, in causing them to think that men (which includes God) cannot understand them at all. Principles are principles, love is love, kindness is kindness, etc. We should look at what the scriptures give to each of us, even if they do not perfectly fit us.

We do not have to like nor agree with everything to have a testimony. We just have to be humble enough to ask sincerely, and without allowing distractions and personal agendae to get in the way of God's answer.

Thanks for testifying of those things to me. I haven't said my prayers for awhile and I know that's part of my problem. I need to work on so many things.

[wenglund]

I told my bishop my concerns in an email, basically JS polygamy, Mountain Meadows and blood atonement. Laugh some of you, but I'm not alone. My bishop hasn't emailed back anything. Dead silence for several months now. Why do leaders tell us not to write COB with problems but go to our bishops/sp with them instead. And when we do we get nothing?

The problem is that there are no answers out there for people like me. None, it is all faith driven. That's what my journey is right now. And I'm trying to get that personal relationship with the Savior, something I'd never been taught that I recall, in all my years as a LDS....

If it is of any help, consider the possibility that the questions you seek answers to may be the wrong questions, or ineffectual questions, in terms of personal faith and growth in the restored gospel. I would even go so far as to suggest that they ought to be entirely irrelevant to your personal spiritual state, and this because they aren't, or ought not be, pertinent to the intent and purpose of the gospel--which is to bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him.

May I suggest some alternative questions for you to pursue? Given that the intent and purpose of the gospel is to enable us to become like Christ:

Do you wish to achieve that same purpose?

If so, then what does the gospel/church outline as the way to achieve that purpose?

And, does the way of the restored gospel work and work towards achieving that purpose, or is some other alternative the best?

When I ask myself these questions, I don't see how relatively obscure things that occurred around a hundred years ago or more would come up, let alone factor into my faith journey today.

For what it is worth...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 25, 2012 by wenglund

[Deborah]

I have and do see that the BOM is really no different than what the bible teaches. And you are definitely more adept at scripture reading than I. But from the research I've done and since acquiring a copy of the 1830 BOM, I've found Joseph Smith to have changed his mind on some things, when he adds to the BOM.

First of all the BOM wasn't meant to be different from the Bible but to support it. Furthermore Joseph made a lot of changes which were errors due to transcription or in by the editor. As he reviewed these things he made corrections. Also Joseph didn't change his mind. He did not believe the trinity as espoused by other churches as his First Vision contradicted that. The fact that he may not have expounded on that in the beginning is a reflection of his growing understanding and his initial reluctance to talk about a lot of the things revealed to him. The BOM was not authored by Joseph Smith he was merely the translator.

There wouldn't be a division in our own church. Dividing families up, when some go astray etc.

??? What division. The church doesn't divide families. It seeks to keep families together even if one party may go astray.

I honestly don't know where you get your information but I as a convert have never heard of some of the things you come up with, which appear to be straight from the anti websites.

[Tacenda]

If it is of any help, consider the possibility that the questions you seek answers to may be the wrong questions, or ineffectual questions, in terms of personal faith and growth in the restored gospel. I would even go so far as to suggest that they ought to be entirely irrelevant to your personal spiritual state, and this because they aren't, or ought not be, pertinent to the intent and purpose of the gospel--which is to bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him.

May I suggest some alternative questions for you to pursue? Given that the intent and purpose of the gospel is to enable us to become like Christ:

Do you wish to achieve that same purpose?

If so, then what does the gospel/church outline as the way to achieve that purpose?

And, does the way of the restored gospel work and work towards achieving that purpose, or is some other alternative the best?

When I ask myself these questions, I don't see how relatively obscure things that occurred around a hundred years ago or more would come up, let alone factor into my faith journey today.

For what it is worth...

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I feel I've been shortchanged somewhere along the way. All I hear about it is go to the temple when I go to church. I don't like the temple and it's representations. To me it means that I'll have to live polygamy and create spirits, I don't want to go there. And the other churches don't believe that. They believe that He is attainable just by my having faith in Him. I know it sounds like I need to maybe leave and get out, but it would hurt the ones I love. Like you're always saying in your posts, that's what matters most. Can I believe a different way? NO b/c I have to answer t/r questions. See the corner I've painted myself in? BTW, I keep thinking I'm going to get kicked out of this place, I appreciate the time and effort by you all. And that you're trying to get me on track. I love the members of the church. They mean everything to me. I'm old and have lived a TBM life my entire life. So you see the rock and hard place I'm in?

[Tacenda]

First of all the BOM wasn't meant to be different from the Bible but to support it. Furthermore Joseph made a lot of changes which were errors due to transcription or in by the editor. As he reviewed these things he made corrections. Also Joseph didn't change his mind. He did not believe the trinity as espoused by other churches as his First Vision contradicted that. The fact that he may not have expounded on that in the beginning is a reflection of his growing understanding and his initial reluctance to talk about a lot of the things revealed to him. The BOM was not authored by Joseph Smith he was merely the translator.

??? What division. The church doesn't divide families. It seeks to keep families together even if one party may go astray.

I honestly don't know where you get your information but I as a convert have never heard of some of the things you come up with, which appear to be straight from the anti websites.

If you call the original BOM anti, or if you call JOD anti. I guess so. If you call some editions of the Ensign anti, or In Sacred Loneliness or Mormon Enigma anti. Ok. I do admit watching the "Polygamy, What Love is This show". So yes anti, but not anti truth.

Where I said it divides, I've seen it in my own family. But I should have said "excluded".

[Deborah]

If you call the original BOM anti, or if you call JOD anti. I guess so.

Goof grief. You really do not understand anything about the BOM or the JOD or the church.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The problem I have is that I don't think that it was sanctioned by our Heavenly Father. Joseph Smith read about it in the Old Testament and decided to go to the Lord and ask if it should be reinstated. True story.

I have a problem with this line of thinking.

You run into issues were many of the the old testament prophets had multiple wives. Non were ever condemned. Not even Jesus while on the earth ever condemned the prophets of past for practicing polygamy. Do you think that might speak something regarding polygamy?

We also know that David did receive the wives of Salmon from the lord after Solomon was killed.

• 2 Samuel 12:8
  8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
  

Edited June 26, 2012 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Calm]

Goof grief. You really do not understand anything about the BOM or the JOD or the church.

I think she is saying this is where she got her info from in response to this comment of yours (specifically the bolded part):

I honestly don't know where you get your information but I as a convert have never heard of some of the things you come up with, which appear to be straight from the anti websites.

[wenglund]

I feel I've been shortchanged somewhere along the way. All I hear about it is go to the temple when I go to church. I don't like the temple and it's representations. To me it means that I'll have to live polygamy and create spirits, I don't want to go there. And the other churches don't believe that. They believe that He is attainable just by my having faith in Him. I know it sounds like I need to maybe leave and get out, but it would hurt the ones I love. Like you're always saying in your posts, that's what matters most. Can I believe a different way? NO b/c I have to answer t/r questions. See the corner I've painted myself in?

What I see is your seemingly distorted view of what the gospel is about, the purpose of the temple and recommend interviews, and what your role may be in all of this. If there is a corner that you have painted yourself into, it is one you have manufactured in your own mind.

Let me see if I can help you out of that corner by first explaining four important things:

First, the Church and the gospel have been established for your and my interest, and not the other way around. It is there for your good and mine, not its own.

Second, the Church is designed to enable you in the quest to become the very best person possible, and to have the most satisfying and fulfilling and lasting relationships available.

Third, a key precepts of the gospel is free agency. You get to chose how far you wish to go on the aforementioned quest and to utilize the Church in getting you there.

Fourth, however, like with many things in life, in order to fully achieve the aforementioned quest it requires obedience to the laws upon which that quest is predicated. In other words, if you want to be the very best person possible, and if you wish to have the very best relationships possible, it isn't going to happen by accident or for no reason. You need to do those things that will best insure your personal and interpersonal progression.

What this means is that you don't have to attend the temple if you don't want to, though if you wish to attain certain blessings of the temple (like authoritative sealings for all eternity and a more advanced covenant relationship with the Father), then attending the temple, and doing so in the right spirit, is necessary.

What this also means is, you don't have to choose to live the gospel, and are open to believing in whatever religion, if any, that suites your fancy, though if your wish to attain the blessings of the restored gospel, then abiding that faith is required.

The choice is yours. There are no real "corners" to be backed into, just reasonable costs and benefits. And, if, after consulting with God, you honestly believe that you can become your best self and attain the most fulfilling and lasting relationships you desire outside the Church, then in good faith, that is what you should do. And, while your family may balk at first, then if you are correct in your belief and feel God is directing you onto another path, have faith that your family may eventually see that you are realizing your goal of becoming a better person and are better able to relate to them than when you practiced your LDS faith--though don't be surprised if you learn for yourself otherwise.

Before making the move, though, I would advise getting a more correct and less warped understanding of the Church and the gospel.

Whatever happens, I wish only the best for you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 25, 2012 by wenglund

[Tacenda]

What I see is your seemingly distorted view of what the gospel is about, the purpose of the temple and recommend interviews, and what your role may be in all of this. If there is a corner that you have painted yourself into, it is one you have manufactured in your own mind.

Let me see if I can help you out of that corner by first explaining four important things:

First, the Church and the gospel have been established for your and my interest, and not the other way around. It is there for your good and mine, not its own.

Second, the Church is designed to enable you in the quest to become the very best person possible, and to have the most satisfying and fulfilling and lasting relationships available.

Third, a key precepts of the gospel is free agency. You get to chose how far you wish to go on the aforementioned quest and to utilize the Church in getting you there.

Fourth, however, like with many things in life, in order to fully achieve the aforementioned quest it requires obedience to the laws upon which that quest is predicated. In other words, if you want to be the very best person possible, and if you wish to have the very best relationships possible, it isn't going to happen by accident or for no reason. You need to do those things that will best insure your personal and interpersonal progression.

What this means is that you don't have to attend the temple if you don't want to, though if you wish to attain certain blessings of the temple (like authoritative sealings for all eternity and a more advanced covenant relationship with the Father), then attending the temple, and doing so in the right spirit, is necessary.

What this also means is, you don't have to choose to live the gospel, and are open to believing in whatever religion, if any, that suites your fancy, though if your wish to attain the blessings of the restored gospel, then abiding that faith is required.

The choice is yours. There are no real "corners" to be backed into, just reasonable costs and benefits. And, if, after consulting with God, you honestly believe that you can become your best self and attain the most fulfilling and lasting relationships you desire outside the Church, then in good faith, that is what you should do. And, while your family may balk at first, then if you are correct in your belief and feel God is directing you onto another path, have faith that your family may eventually see that you are realizing your goal of becoming a better person and are better able to relate to them than when you practiced your LDS faith--though don't be surprised if you learn for yourself otherwise.

Before making the move, though, I would advise getting a more correct and less warped understanding of the Church and the gospel.

Whatever happens, I wish only the best for you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've been listening to non lds christian sermons and I enjoy the Jesus talk, it never gets old, I don't get Jesus talk in my home ward. Maybe you do in yours, not in mine. I do have a few questions for you, and forgive me if I've crossed a line here.

Over and over again, the thing that is clear but no one addresses, is "do I have be a polygamist to go to the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom? And "If I'm to help create a world with my husband, how is that dwelling with the Father? And when am I to enjoy any of it, if I'm constantly "with child" and according to Orson Pratt, gestastion is a full 9 months long for each child, millions would need to be born".

When will the church come out and tell us these things are not true, unless they think they are? It would keep me in the faith and I could go back to being the happy camper I was. FYI I never even knew what being a Goddess meant until recently and have been married in the temple for over 25 years. So yeah, pretty naive of me I know.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[Calm]

FYI I never even knew what being a Goddess meant until recently

Are you certain you know now?

[Tacenda]

Are you certain you know now?

Yes, because according to our doctrine if men are to be like God and we believe in a pre-existence and the spirits in heaven come down to gain a body and be tested, then yes I'd think that women would need to be goddesses in order to produce those spirits.

[wenglund]

I've been listening to non lds christian sermons and I enjoy the Jesus talk, it never gets old, I don't get Jesus talk in my home ward. Maybe you do in yours, not in mine.

In my Ward, it is a different kind of "Jesus talk" than the non-LDS sermons you may enjoy.

I do have a few questions for you, and forgive me if I've crossed a line here.

Over and over again, the thing that is clear but no one addresses, is do I have be a polygamist to go to the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom?

The way I would address it is to reiterate that in the gospel scheme of things your question ought to be unimportant and has as much relevance to the here-and-now than wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

After all, in your condition where you are struggling with faith in this life, the last thing you need to care about are questions that are far from pertinent to your growth in faith and your becoming like Christ. Please realize that the answer to your question hasn't been revealed (for good reason--it isn't pertinent now), and whatever the answer, it won't matter one way or the other were you to be worthy of the highest celestial glory. God's don't fuss about such things.

And, whatever the case, you won't be required to be polygamous. Again, the choice is yours, though by choosing not to obey that law (assuming it is enforce), then you deny yourself the blessing of that law. Simple as that.

And "If I'm to help create a world with my husband, how is that dwelling with the Father?

If or when you mature spiritually to where you are in a position to create worlds, you will then understand how it is dwelling with the Father. However, for now, you have far more elementary matters of faith you need to work on. You can't expect to grasp the nuances of the higher laws and truths when you are struggling in faith with the lower laws and truths.

And when am I to enjoy any of it, if I'm constantly "with child" and according to Orson Pratt, gestastion is a full 9 months long for each child, millions would need to be born".

Again, you need to first master your human existence before fussing about a potential godly existence. To everything there is a season. This is the time for you to prepare to meet God, and not a time to worry about being a God.

When will the church come out and tell us these things are not true, unless they think they are?

They will come out with the truth when God deems it appropriate for them to do so. He is very capable of deciding that for his children. Feel free to unburden yourself from that usurped concern, and leave it in God's trusted hand. Such will be liberating for you, freeing you up to devote your faculties to better minding the business that is actually yours--most importantly, the state of your faith on earth and your progression in Christ during this life.

It would keep me in the faith and I could go back to being the happy camper I was.

If so, then you don't correctly understand the ways of faith, as represented in the restored gospel. The only legitimate reason you should leave or stay is whether or not the Church and the restored gospel best enables you to come unto Christ and enables you to become like him. If it does, then it makes sense to stay. If it doesn't, then it makes sense to leave. Your not getting answers regarding matters of godly life in the hereafter should have no bearing one way or the other on your faith journey in the here-and-now, particularly when your faith journey now is going so poorly.

FYI I never even knew what being a Goddess meant until recently and have been married in the temple for over 25 years. So yeah, pretty naive of me I know.

It is a naivety that seems quite appropriate given that knowing what being a Goddess is can't really occur until you are pretty much ready to be a Goddess, and perhaps not even until one becomes a Goddess. For now, what is important for you to know is what it means to be a disciple of Christ. Take care of that, and the other will naturally follow.

Does this help? In short, and metaphorically, if you are struggling with elementary math, it isn't the time to worry about matters of calculus.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 26, 2012 by wenglund

[Deborah]

Does this help? In short, and metaphorically, if you are struggling with elementary math, it isn't the time to worry about matters of calculus.

Furthermore I don't think we can even begin to understand what it's like in the eternities or to be gods and goddesses. In the first place we will have reached a point where we have the true love of Christ and all these petty thoughts will not matter. All has not been revealed for a reason: because it is quite beyond our comprehension and we have trouble just living the basics. I find it humorous in a non-funny way that it is apostates who always complain about not being given enough yet they don't even understand the basic principles of faith.

[why me]

I've been listening to non lds christian sermons and I enjoy the Jesus talk, it never gets old, I don't get Jesus talk in my home

What is Jesus talk? What does it mean? Here is where I think that the problem is: in sacrament meeting we hear a lot of talks about living the gospel: love of neighbor, prayer, obeying the commandments, charity, holy ghost etc. All directly related to Jesus. What is the problem? And at times we hear about temples and missionary work. What is the temple? It is the lord's home. And missionary work: bringing people to jesus.

[why me]

Over and over again, the thing that is clear but no one addresses, is "do I have be a polygamist to go to the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom? And "If I'm to help create a world with my husband, how is that dwelling with the Father?

Since even during its height, the practice of polygamy was a 'calling' for a select group of people. Not everyone had the permission to be a polygamist. I would imagine no, you don't have to be a polygamist to get to the highest kingdom.

[Tacenda]

What is Jesus talk? What does it mean? Here is where I think that the problem is: in sacrament meeting we hear a lot of talks about living the gospel: love of neighbor, prayer, obeying the commandments, charity, holy ghost etc. All directly related to Jesus. What is the problem? And at times we hear about temples and missionary work. What is the temple? It is the lord's home. And missionary work: bringing people to jesus.

I'm just beginning to understand a little bit of what the other Christians are learning when attending church and listening to their sermons. I've just started to listen to their audio of what they listen to each Sunday, of the local churches surrounding me. I know that Mormons would just as soon have me leave and join them, then bring up the things I have. I think in the LDS eyes, so called apostates, are better off gone, thank goodness the Danites don't exist. (I read everything) The Jack Mormons or inactives, are more welcome, I believe, because they're more likely to be oblivious to some doctrine & history of the church.

I got sidetracked about the sermons, I think "Jesus talk" is that, "Jesus talk". Speaking about his daily walk while on earth. Stories, yes over and over but with a different bend, something that we can take in our lives and build on. I'm not saying we don't, in around about way, talk of Jesus at the LDS church. But it seems we talk less about the bible stories. For over 35 years I have been an active, weekly attendant at church, so really, I have credentials of what I'm saying. Maybe it's just that my eyes are seeing through different lenses now.

Thanks for your time, and the efforts to make me see a little better (WEngland, Deborah, Cal and you Why Me) but I really do wish for more "Jesus talk". And I'm done speaking about the Gods & Goddess thing now. Even though it's the end all be all of our religion, if it weren't the case, we wouldn't belong to the one true church.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Tacenda

[Calm]

I know that Mormons would just as soon have me leave and join them, then bring up the things I have.

This will become a self-fulfilling prophecy if you keep insisting upon it.

Even though it's the end all be all of our religion, if it weren't the case, we wouldn't belong to the one true church.

???

[Deborah]

Speaking about his daily walk while on earth. Stories, yes over and over but with a different bend, something that we can take in our lives and build on. I'm not saying we don't, in around about way, talk of Jesus at the LDS church. But it seems we talk less about the bible stories.

Perhaps that's because we emphasize what we can do today to follow Christ's example. Why just talk about the stories when you should be talking about how to do what Christ asked us to do.