John Dehlin - Why They Leave

[wenglund]

I'm just beginning to understand a little bit of what the other Christians are learning when attending church and listening to their sermons. I've just started to listen to their audio of what they listen to each Sunday, of the local churches surrounding me. I know that Mormons would just as soon have me leave and join them, then bring up the things I have. I think in the LDS eyes, so called apostates, are better off gone, thank goodness the Danites don't exist. (I read everything) The Jack Mormons or inactives, are more welcome, I believe, because they're more likely to be oblivious to some doctrine & history of the church.

Evidently, my well-intended comments have fallen on deaf ears and been wasted. Oh well...

And, if it helps you to play the victim and guilt-trip cards, then I am okay with that. It is just that I think you are doing yourself and us a disservice.

Even still, I wish you well with your "Jesus talk" and whatever else YOU decided for yourself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 26, 2012 by wenglund

[Tacenda]

Evidently, my well-intended comments have fallen on deaf ears and been wasted. Oh well...

And, if it helps you to play the victim and guilt-trip cards, then I am okay with that. It is just that I think you are doing yourself and us a disservice.

Even still, I wish you well with your "Jesus talk" and whatever else YOU decided for yourself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What you said did not fall on deaf ears, I'm just going through a stage of rebellion that's all. Maybe a mid life crisis. Before when I just played along and did everything I was told no one said a thing, speaking about my personal church life here, but when I really want the relationship with Him, than I'm ruffling feathers!

[Deborah]

What you said did not fall on deaf ears, I'm just going through a stage of rebellion that's all. Maybe a mid life crisis. Before when I just played along and did everything I was told no one said a thing, speaking about my personal church life here, but when I really want the relationship with Him, than I'm ruffling feathers!

You do realize that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not one of contention so you might ask why you feel the need to ruffle feathers. I don't understand at all what having a relationship with Jesus Christ has to do with all the questions you seem to be concerned with.

[Tacenda]

You do realize that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not one of contention so you might ask why you feel the need to ruffle feathers. I don't understand at all what having a relationship with Jesus Christ has to do with all the questions you seem to be concerned with.

Because of the "works" it takes to be able to get to the highest kingdom I guess. In other faiths, they totally rely on Him to save them and the works comes after because of the deep gratitude of being saved. I know LDS snicker when they hear "born agains" say such things but it is what is in the bible. The "works", I'm talking about, is first faith (most important) baptism, tithing, temple etc.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Over and over again, the thing that is clear but no one addresses, is "do I have be a polygamist to go to the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom? And "If I'm to help create a world with my husband, how is that dwelling with the Father? And when am I to enjoy any of it, if I'm constantly "with child" and according to Orson Pratt, gestastion is a full 9 months long for each child, millions would need to be born".

Polygamy is not required for the Celestial Kingdom.

And no one knows how kids are created in teh here after. That is pure speculation.

FYI I never even knew what being a Goddess meant until recently and have been married in the temple for over 25 years. So yeah, pretty naive of me I know.

Oh.

So, (serious question) Did you just not pay attention in church and at the temple?

[Calm]

but when I really want the relationship with Him, than I'm ruffling feathers!

It has nothing to do with you wanting a relationship with Christ, it's the consistent talking down of what LDS do and believe as well as stuff like:

I know that Mormons would just as soon have me leave and join them, then bring up the things I have. I think in the LDS eyes, so called apostates, are better off gone, thank goodness the Danites don't exist.

You are acting like someone here has painted a target on your back and we all are just waiting to hear someone say "fire" if you say "born again" or "Jesus" just once too often.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Because of the "works" it takes to be able to get to the highest kingdom I guess.

Works are always involved regardless of what church you go to.

In other faiths, they totally rely on Him to save them and the works comes after because of the deep gratitude of being saved.

I am sorry but this is not true. I know that is what they say but you simply cannot be saved by simply "accepting" (what ever that means)him. The scriptures make it abundantly clear that you must do things to be saved. A simple belief is but the starting point to salvation it is not the end.

I know LDS snicker when they hear "born agains" say such things but it is what is in the bible. The "works", I'm talking about, is first faith (most important) baptism, tithing, temple etc.

Read the parable in Mathew 25. What did the sheep do that the goats didnt. Why were the goats damned?

[Storm Rider]

I've been listening to non lds christian sermons and I enjoy the Jesus talk, it never gets old, I don't get Jesus talk in my home ward. Maybe you do in yours, not in mine. I do have a few questions for you, and forgive me if I've crossed a line here.

Over and over again, the thing that is clear but no one addresses, is "do I have be a polygamist to go to the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom? And "If I'm to help create a world with my husband, how is that dwelling with the Father? And when am I to enjoy any of it, if I'm constantly "with child" and according to Orson Pratt, gestastion is a full 9 months long for each child, millions would need to be born".

When will the church come out and tell us these things are not true, unless they think they are? It would keep me in the faith and I could go back to being the happy camper I was. FYI I never even knew what being a Goddess meant until recently and have been married in the temple for over 25 years. So yeah, pretty naive of me I know.

It appears that you don't really know anything about the LDS Church; when did you actually attend a meeting and listen to what is said. No Jesus talk? Hmm, did you listen to any of the prayers? How about the testimonies? Or, maybe the lessons, or maybe the talks. If all else fails hike your butt out to the front the building and read the name of the Church; you will be amzaed at what you learn.

No one addresses? Again, pull your head out of that anti-Mormon literature and listen clearly, again, and again, and again. To obtain the Celestial Kingdom, the highest degree, one of the things you need to have done is be sealed to your spouse. That is ONE of the things; fist learn to repent, have faith, be baptized, receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, love one another, love God. Repeat each step; you will never get the repent and have faith down in this life.

My, you really don't have a clue about LDS theology, doctrine or teaching. Here is a big hint; Evangelicals don't know jack about LDS doctrine. Clue: we have no idea what the Celestial Kingdom looks like. The stuff about having your own world; it ain't Mormon doctrine. Repeat to yourself for at least 30 minutes; the moment you begin to act like a parrot of Evangelical claptrap; repeat it for one hour. When all else fails, talk to God and listen. Clue: Evangelicals are not God.

Ta, you really don't sound like a LDS. Even worse, you don't sound like you have ever understood anything about the Church's teachings. Frankly, I am stunned that you could even think to label yourself as a LDS when you are so ignorant of our teachings.

[Tacenda]

It has nothing to do with you wanting a relationship with Christ, it's the consistent talking down of what LDS do and believe as well as stuff like:

You are acting like someone here has painted a target on your back and we all are just waiting to hear someone say "fire" if you say "born again" or "Jesus" just once too often.

Sorry, I don't mean to paint myself as "poor me". I want to move on to bigger and better convos. I'm sorry for the angst I brought on. Let's just move on. And let other's post about other stuff. I'm embarrassed that this is happening. I know that somethings up when I get fellow LDS people saying the things they're saying to me.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sorry, I don't mean to paint myself as "poor me". I want to move on to bigger and better convos. I'm sorry for the angst I brought on. Let's just move on. And let other's post about other stuff. I'm embarrassed that this is happening. I know that somethings up when I get fellow LDS people saying the things they're saying to me.

I am confused. But I agree that we should move on. No one is out to get you. Well not here anyway.

[Tacenda]

It appears that you don't really know anything about the LDS Church; when did you actually attend a meeting and listen to what is said. No Jesus talk? Hmm, did you listen to any of the prayers? How about the testimonies? Or, maybe the lessons, or maybe the talks. If all else fails hike your butt out to the front the building and read the name of the Church; you will be amzaed at what you learn.

No one addresses? Again, pull your head out of that anti-Mormon literature and listen clearly, again, and again, and again. To obtain the Celestial Kingdom, the highest degree, one of the things you need to have done is be sealed to your spouse. That is ONE of the things; fist learn to repent, have faith, be baptized, receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, love one another, love God. Repeat each step; you will never get the repent and have faith down in this life.

My, you really don't have a clue about LDS theology, doctrine or teaching. Here is a big hint; Evangelicals don't know jack about LDS doctrine. Clue: we have no idea what the Celestial Kingdom looks like. The stuff about having your own world; it ain't Mormon doctrine. Repeat to yourself for at least 30 minutes; the moment you begin to act like a parrot of Evangelical claptrap; repeat it for one hour. When all else fails, talk to God and listen. Clue: Evangelicals are not God.

Ta, you really don't sound like a LDS. Even worse, you don't sound like you have ever understood anything about the Church's teachings. Frankly, I am stunned that you could even think to label yourself as a LDS when you are so ignorant of our teachings.

I really am LDS and have lived it to the fullest. But I didn't read the hidden history, I did study a little while attending LDS business college years ago, but it didn't have anything about JS's polygamy. All my problems started with finding out Joseph had several wives and married other men's wives. I have served in many auxillaries, have a current TR, and usually a 100 % visiting teacher, come from an extremely active family on my husbands side, every one of the 8 kids are married in the temple and active and several are in bishoprics or have been mission presidents and go on several missions. So it's very difficult to have these feelings and be surrounded by them. But now I guess you probably want to lump me in with the Grant Palmers and spew me out. So maybe I'll leave it at that and move on & just shut up.

[Calm]

I know that somethings up when I get fellow LDS people saying the things they're saying to me.

Maybe you need to step back for a time, calm down so there is less angst in speaking with others, concentrate on studying the scriptures like you've said you want to, do a lot of talking to God and then when you feel you have your feet planted securely and aren't nervous about talking come back if you still want to.

[Calm]

But now I guess you probably want to lump me in with the Grant Palmers and spew me out. So maybe I'll leave it at that and move on & just shut up.

If you want to feel comfortable around here this stuff is a habit you will have to break. It just doesn't work. Think of how it would come across to a family member if you said something along those lines in a nonreligious subject, at the very least they would be very annoyed with you. It comes across as if you are setting yourself up as a martyr/victim and the way you say it implies that people are even looking forward to attacking you.

[Calm]

Can't remember if someone has pointed out this article to you yet. It has, I believe, the best overall information about the polyandrous sealings that JS engaged in. If you are serious about dealing with your concerns, this is one paper you need to read and probably read more than once since you appear to have a lot of emotional baggage that might interfere with getting all the tidbits at your first reading. Sometimes it takes a while to digest stuff and it helps to come back a couple of times to chew things over again: http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/katich-a-tale-of-two-marriage-systems.pdf

There are a number of other good articles on FAIR to provide context. You don't even have to agree with plural marriage if you choose not to, but before you attack others for practicing it because they believed they had spiritual witnesses that they were commanded to, don't you think you owe it to them to learn as much as possible about the why and hows of what they did and why they valued it even if you don't?

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

I really am LDS and have lived it to the fullest. But I didn't read the hidden history, I did study a little while attending LDS business college years ago, but it didn't have anything about JS's polygamy. All my problems started with finding out Joseph had several wives and married other men's wives. I have served in many auxillaries, have a current TR, and usually a 100 % visiting teacher, come from an extremely active family on my husbands side, every one of the 8 kids are married in the temple and active and several are in bishoprics or have been mission presidents and go on several missions. So it's very difficult to have these feelings and be surrounded by them. But now I guess you probably want to lump me in with the Grant Palmers and spew me out. So maybe I'll leave it at that and move on & just shut up.

It is not a question of shutting up; but I am still stunned that you would think the things you do and have been a LDS for so long. It is almost as if you haven't been listening. I do not seek to offend here, but I am speaking bluntly. Many of the things you say come staright out of the really poor anti-Mormon literature bin.

As you study Joseph Smith's life, study his entire life. In focusing on polygamy, study also the meaning and difference of being sealed and living as man and wife. Understand, there is very little evidence to support Joseph living as a couple. I needed to quit early; keep talking.

[wenglund]

What you said did not fall on deaf ears, I'm just going through a stage of rebellion that's all. Maybe a mid life crisis. Before when I just played along and did everything I was told no one said a thing, speaking about my personal church life here, but when I really want the relationship with Him, than I'm ruffling feathers!

I appreciate you saying so. Really, all we want is the best for you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Because of the "works" it takes to be able to get to the highest kingdom I guess. In other faiths, they totally rely on Him to save them and the works comes after because of the deep gratitude of being saved. I know LDS snicker when they hear "born agains" say such things but it is what is in the bible. The "works", I'm talking about, is first faith (most important) baptism, tithing, temple etc.

I don't know about "snickering", but I think it helps to consider not only the differences in our beliefs about "works," but also the differences in our beliefs about salvation and heaven. Consider asking your "born again" friends what is the best the hereafter holds for them, and see if that is satisfactory to you compared with what may be available to you through the restored gospel.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cwald]

Tacenda, they did this same type of crap to me Sunday...I believe the quote from Calmoriah was that us new people need to consider this an anatomy class and just expect to be dissected. Very charitable of you...way to make new people feel welcome.

I get what you are saying. People tell me I am welcome at church and they want me involved, and then because I have different understanding of the gospel, I start hearing the "wolf in sheep clothing" rhetoric from family, and from folks like DCP and the folks on this board.

Edited June 26, 2012 by cwald

[cwald]

Edit

Edited June 26, 2012 by cwald

[Calm]

Tacenda, they did this same type of crap to me Sunday...I believe the quote from Calmoriah was that us new people need to consider this an anatomy class and just expect to be dissected. Very charitable of you...way to make new people feel welcome.

And if you read the further clarification you would have learned I meant that they should expect people to ask them about what they thought, their POVs, etc. in detail....because people are curious.

Sheesh, what do you want people to do, just ignore your posts? would that make you feel welcome?

I have found it is most often not a difference of understanding, but the style of presentation that drives the response style.

Aggressive posters will be responded to aggressively. I assume the same goes for outside the board. Is anyone really surprised at that?

And I doubt anyone is that great at judging their own aggression level. We tend to overinflate the others' aggression while deflating our own.

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

And if you read the further clarification you would have learned I meant that they should expect people to ask them about what they thought, their POVs, etc. in detail....because people are curious.

Sheesh, what do you want people to do, just ignore your posts? would that make you feel welcome?

I have found it is most often not a difference of understanding, but the style of presentation that drives the response style.

Aggressive posters will be responded to aggressively. I assume the same goes for outside the board. Is anyone really surprised at that?

And I doubt anyone is that great at judging their own aggression level. We tend to overinflate the others' aggression while deflating our own.

I don't know about you but,to me, the poor me refrain is getting a little old.

[cwald]

And if you read the further clarification you would have learned I meant that they should expect people to ask them about what they thought, their POVs, etc. in detail....because people are curious.

Sheesh, what do you want people to do, just ignore your posts? would that make you feel welcome?

I have found it is most often not a difference of understanding, but the style of presentation that drives the response style.

Aggressive posters will be responded to aggressively. I assume the same goes for outside the board. Is anyone really surprised at that?

And I doubt anyone is that great at judging their own aggression level. We tend to overinflate the others' aggression while deflating our own.

Well, this isn't helping. Perhaps maybe just be nice? You know, the stuff you learned in Kindergarten and primary.

[cwald]

I don't know about you but,to me, the poor me refrain is getting a little old.

Yeah, that is easy to say over here...where you got all the back up and can gang up on the new posters.

Hey Cal...remember the post right after yours where you got chewed out and someone made the statement about how you treat new people and that this has been a problem on the board some time now? Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks you and your cronies need to back off.

[Deborah]

Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks you and your cronies need to back off.

For some reason the tone of this just comes across as offensive and you wonder why people get their backs up. We've had many posters on here who have different beliefs but with whom we can have pleasant discussions. It's all in the way its said.

[Calm]

Me and my cronies.....love it.