The Prophet Is Infallible

[cinepro]

Yesterday in Elder's Quorum, I was teaching the lesson "Revelation from God to His Children", and as always, I started off the lesson with a few "trivia" questions.

One of the questions was "What is infallibility, and do we believe in it?" Several members of the quorum said no, we don't believe in it, but one member (the Sunday School President), raised his hand and said that when it comes to the Prophet, "I do believe he is infallible."

I was obviously a little taken aback, and one of the class members (a scholar and a gentleman) raised his hand and said he views the Prophets the way Emma viewed Joseph Smith, something to the effect that "Sometimes he was 'Joseph Smith the Prophet', and other times he was 'Joseph Smith the Man'"

But there you have it. One LDS who spoke up in defense of Prophetic infallibility.

Edited June 11, 2012 by cinepro

[DBMormon]

WOW....... how did he handle being corrected? did the class seem to get truth accross by the end?

great learning moment for the individual if he took it right....

[Lightbearer]

That is odd, I taught the very same class in Elder's Quorum and the subject of "infallibility" did not come into the conversation! I guess it must have been in a footnote that I missed. In fact the focus of my lesson was that the Holy Ghost is the source of revelation which is available to all worthy members of the Church as well as the leadership. In fact the accuracy of that revelation is in proportion to our own faithfulness:

"I believe in you, my brethren and sisters. … You are entitled to the same knowledge that he is who presides over the Church. You are entitled to the same inspiration that flows to those whom God has caused to be ordained as His leaders. You are entitled to the inspiration of the Spirit, and the knowledge that He is your Father, and when I say “you” I speak of all those who have obeyed the commandments of our Father, and have partaken of the sweet influence of the Spirit of the Lord in the Church of Christ. … Each of us is entitled to the inspiration of the Lord in proportion to the manner in which we live a godly life."

So the question of infallibility is rather a moot point. The only thing I am sure of is the infallibility of the Holy Ghost. That was the whole point of the lesson.

[cinepro]

That is odd, I taught the very same class in Elder's Quorum and the subject of "infallibility" did not come into the conversation! I guess it must have been in a footnote that I missed. In fact the focus of my lesson was that the Holy Ghost is the source of revelation which is available to all worthy members of the Church as well as the leadership. In fact the accuracy of that revelation is in proportion to our own faithfulness:

Since one of the class members was apparently unclear on the subject, I suspect the teacher was inspired to bring it up so their understanding could be increased.

[Grundelwalken]

That is odd, I taught the very same class in Elder's Quorum and the subject of "infallibility" did not come into the conversation! I guess it must have been in a footnote that I missed. In fact the focus of my lesson was that the Holy Ghost is the source of revelation which is available to all worthy members of the Church as well as the leadership. In fact the accuracy of that revelation is in proportion to our own faithfulness:

So the question of infallibility is rather a moot point. The only thing I am sure of is the infallibility of the Holy Ghost. That was the whole point of the lesson.

Likewise, I taught the same lesson in HP. There were many topics discussed (except by the brethren who were asleep) but infallibility was not mentioned. I suppose I was remiss in not including that message but there seemed to be many more points that were of greater interest and merit. We have talked about that in the past but it usually comes naturally to our group. MW

Your description of why was sufficient for me to retract my slight consternation. MW

Edited June 11, 2012 by Grundelwalken

[cinepro]

And FWIW, "Prophetic Fallibility" could appropriately be discussed in the context of this discussion question for the lesson:

3.Review the section that begins on page 115. How have you come to know that the counsel of the prophet comes from the Lord and is “more than just the advice of man”? (page 116). How can personal revelation help you accept and apply revelation given through the prophet?

[ERayR]

Since one of the class members was apparently unclear on the subject, I suspect the teacher was inspired to bring it up so their understanding could be increased.

I think that is a very good reason for a teacher to be inspired to include the concept of infallibility. Hope it turned out well.

[Freedom]

Well, I have been able to avoid going to HP quorum meetings for over a month, rendering me infallible.

[Duncan]

We had one of the Elders indicate that when he went back to BYU if some girl came up to him and said she had a revelation saying she was to marry him he would go for gold-so I wish him well in his future endevours

[ERayR]

We had one of the Elders indicate that when he went back to BYU if some girl came up to him and said she had a revelation saying she was to marry him he would go for gold-so I wish him well in his future endevours

That is usually a returned missionary line.

[KevinG]

Our discussion resulted in the conclusion that the Elders of Israel are fallible but if the Lord instructs us to follow them we will be blessed and any shortcomings will be on their heads. We then noted that none of us had ever been harmed by "bad counsel" and knowledge of such experiences by others was pretty rare.

Zions Camp is the perfect illustration.

[KevinG]

We had one of the Elders indicate that when he went back to BYU if some girl came up to him and said she had a revelation saying she was to marry him he would go for gold-so I wish him well in his future endevours

That is usually a returned missionary line.

That is a red flag for unrighteous dominion and a good indicator the Elder is not mature enough to marry.

[CASteinman]

But there you have it. One LDS who spoke up in defense of Prophetic infallibility.

Sounds to me like two who spoke up for it.

[CASteinman]

Since one of the class members was apparently unclear on the subject, I suspect the teacher was inspired to bring it up so their understanding could be increased.

Didn't really sound like anyone was unclear.

[3DOP]

This doesn't sound any different than what Catholics teach about the pope. Most popes never speak infallibly. Infallibility is a conditional charism. Of course Joseph Smith the Man is fallible. The more important question might not be about whether there are times when the prophets are fallible, but whether there is any time when they might be infallible. Could Joseph Smith the Prophet propose error?

(I don't have any bone to pick either way. I am mainly using this to show that papal infallibility is very rare and perhaps more like your view than you might have realized.)

3DOP

[The Nehor]

We had one of the Elders indicate that when he went back to BYU if some girl came up to him and said she had a revelation saying she was to marry him he would go for gold-so I wish him well in his future endevours

My favorite story like this was an Elder told a girl that he had been told by revelation that they had agreed to marry each other in the Premortal world.

Her Response:

"Well, I'm certainly not making that mistake again."

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That is odd, I taught the very same class in Elder's Quorum and the subject of "infallibility" did not come into the conversation! I guess it must have been in a footnote that I missed. In fact the focus of my lesson was that the Holy Ghost is the source of revelation which is available to all worthy members of the Church as well as the leadership. In fact the accuracy of that revelation is in proportion to our own faithfulness:

So the question of infallibility is rather a moot point. The only thing I am sure of is the infallibility of the Holy Ghost. That was the whole point of the lesson.

But if your inspiration of the Spirit contradicts the prophets inspiration of the Spirit, it is clearly understood that your inspiration is wrong, and you need to keep praying/studying until it matches that of the prophet.

Doesn't that, in essence, make the prophet infallible? or am I missing something?

[ERayR]

But if your inspiration of the Spirit contradicts the prophets inspiration of the Spirit, it is clearly understood that your inspiration is wrong, and you need to keep praying/studying until it matches that of the prophet.

Doesn't that, in essence, make the prophet infallible? or am I missing something?

You are missing something.

[DBMormon]

But if your inspiration of the Spirit contradicts the prophets inspiration of the Spirit, it is clearly understood that your inspiration is wrong, and you need to keep praying/studying until it matches that of the prophet.

Doesn't that, in essence, make the prophet infallible? or am I missing something?

Brigham thought Adam was God.... you don't... you win he lost

Brigham thought men lived on the sun and Joseph thought they lived on the moon... you don..... you win they lose

President Kimball thought Indians that had the gospel were getting lighter in skin and he said he could even see it happening.... you don't... you win they lose.

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as AngIos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. - Pres kimball

Prophets are wrong enough to give you room to do what you feel is best if and when the spirit directs so. To rebel simply because you don't want to follow or you would rather do your own things then you will be accountable

[Freedom]

My favorite story like this was an Elder told a girl that he had been told by revelation that they had agreed to marry each other in the Premortal world.

Her Response:

"Well, I'm certainly not making that mistake again."

I have prayed about it and I feel inspired to council you to join Amway. I can sponsor you.

[DBMormon]

Freedom - you mention amway... lol which now goes by the name quixtar. When they did their presentation, I joined. You know why. To me the way they presented it was just how the missionaries presented the gospel minus the religious overtones

[mbh26]

That is odd, I taught the very same class in Elder's Quorum and the subject of "infallibility" did not come into the conversation!

So much for seeking the truth.

[The Nehor]

I have prayed about it and I feel inspired to council you to join Amway. I can sponsor you.

I feel inspired to accuse you of priestcraft for using your testimony like this and I denounce you.

[The Nehor]

Freedom - you mention amway... lol which now goes by the name quixtar. When they did their presentation, I joined. You know why. To me the way they presented it was just how the missionaries presented the gospel minus the religious overtones

Fear anyone who bears testimony of anything that will get them personal gain. A rule of thumb I developed for myself.

[ERayR]

Brigham thought Adam was God.... you don't... you win he lost

Brigham thought men lived on the sun and Joseph thought they lived on the moon... you don..... you win they lose

President Kimball thought Indians that had the gospel were getting lighter in skin and he said he could even see it happening.... you don't... you win they lose.

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as AngIos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. - Pres kimball

Prophets are wrong enough to give you room to do what you feel is best if and when the spirit directs so. To rebel simply because you don't want to follow or you would rather do your own things then you will be accountable

Perhaps you need to spend some more time researching these brethren and these topics. You don't seem to have more than a superficial knowledge of them.