Church History And Faith Crisis Part 3

[Brian 2.0]

Zerinus.

You can answer the question asked...

You can contribute in some other way...

But I would hope the mods would do something about you if you don't do either and continue what you're doing in this thread.

I'll give you another question you can avoid...

Who is a wolf in sheeps clothing? Are you referring to me? Because I have been completely open, even more than has been asked as to where I stand.

[Brian 2.0]

Nine times out ten those who lose faith have done so from the internet. They read critic interpretations and begin to lose faith. They also become addicted at looking for information that confirms what the critics say and as they do so, they search other critics sites and find 'confirmation' from other critics. They then read exit stories from posters and how such information made them lose faith and consider the church a fraud.

This begins the process of loss of faith for a few members. It is very difficult to find faith again after this. The more one reads betrayal stories from exmembers, the more one feels betrayed and becomes apart of the betrayed crowd.

Why me,

Just to clarify so you don't think my post to you if from a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I agree with your 9 of out 10 lose their faith from the internet. I guess I'm asking where someone does go to listen the arguments from both sides? Obviously it doesn't have to be both sides at one location. I like MormonThink and thought it had a good reputation, but I know some condemn it. But what site or type of critic is acceptable?

[mbh26]

As a convert I did not have your experience. I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

As a BIC, I can say that I noticed the exact same thing you are talking about starting in my late teen years and acclerating through my mission.

[zerinus]

As a convert I did not have your experience. I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

That is still true. We are still expected to obey his word as if it were the word of God (but without relinquishing our agency). But obeying his word isn't quite the same thing as expecting him to never make a mistake in doctrine. Those are two different things. Give me one instance when a Prophet of the Church had commanded Church members to do something, which later has turned out in error, or detrimental to their spiritual well-being? I don't know of any. You are confusing a commandment to do something, with making a mistake in doctrine. Anybody can make a mistake in doctrine; but it does not mean that he is not a good man; or that when he counsels us to do something, that his counsel cannot be trusted.

[DBMormon]

Yes, I do. Your OP consists of poisoning the wells. It is based on certain premises which are assumed as "given," but which are essentially problematic, and are not valid premises.

Zerinus this is false - I presented it as some members feel this way.... and they do. You are offensive when you take someone who is seriously in search of truth and you brand them as evil. I know you have stated before that you keep all the commandments, please be careful and watch what you say.

I would hope some other faithfuls here might step in and share your thoughts on his tone and message. Is this ok with you? Are you comfortable with the words he uses? Is this acceptable behavior?

[DBMormon]

Wow! It looks like the entire board is now being taken over by wolves in sheep clothing. Very interesting.

Zerinus, whether you believe it or not others are going through this, it is real, it is an awful horrible situation that one feels stuck in. It is highly emotional and all you have done from the first moment is throw fuel in and pull out your matches..... please knock it off. Your approach has to be the worst I have seen. you do damage of the worst kind to any LDS who needs someone to be concerned and kind.... you are brash while testimonies are fragile..... Regardless if you like me or not it is time to back off.

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[bcuzbcuz]

Wow! It looks like the entire board is now being taken over by wolves in sheep clothing. Very interesting.

Then I say, " Sheepherder, learn thy sheep."

[DBMormon]

That is still true. We are still expected to obey his word as if it were the word of God (but without relinquishing our agency).

agreed, the issue is however how does one get from one vantage point to the other safely?

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

As a BIC, I can say that I noticed the exact same thing you are talking about starting in my late teen years and acclerating through my mission.

Where do you stand now MBH26? Any thoughts on the OP questions

[DBMormon]

But what site or type of critic is acceptable?

This is a great question. Where is one ok to go to get both sides of the story? If the answer is we should never look at the opposing viewpoint, that would be unaaceptable to me. that is book burning on another level

[DBMormon]

LOG

Ignore the Church and the history thereof, and disregard whatever disagreements one has with the leaders: shelve them all, or, at least sufficiently that you might be able to perform this next action: pray with all your might, mind, and strength to gain a witness from God about whatever it is your issue is, and DO NOT CEASE until you receive.

I agree with this and this has helped a bunch at times... just getting back to Moroni chapter 7 and what draws one to Christ

[zerinus]

agreed the issue is how does one from from one vantage point to the other safely

Sorry, your sentence is not clear. Please clarify.

You are out of the thread for board nannying and inapproriate comments.

[rodheadlee]

For all those who have followed the previous two threads on this topic I wanted to begin a discussion on how to repair the damage done in moving through different stages of faith.

For those who want to find fulfillment in the gospel please address the following questions in sincerity knowing that some who read this will be in this boat. They lack faith to grab back onto the rod and yet whisper out "Help thou my unbelief". All these individuals want is the impossible.... to go back to the way things were.

1.) Many of you have gone through this. Why helped you come out the other side?

1) Hold onto the Iron Rod. Read your scriptures daily. Pray about them with real intent to know the truth. The truth of God's existence and whether or not He loves you.

Edited June 11, 2012 by rodheadlee

[Senator]

Zerinus.

You can answer the question asked...

You can contribute in some other way...

But I would hope the mods would do something about you if you don't do either and continue what you're doing in this thread.

I'll give you another question you can avoid...

Who is a wolf in sheeps clothing? Are you referring to me? Because I have been completely open, even more than has been asked as to where I stand.

Brian2.0, reelmormon,

The recommended track to take with an offensive poster is to report him/her to the moderators.

[CV75]

For all those who have followed the previous two threads on this topic I wanted to begin a discussion on how to repair the damage done in moving through different stages of faith.

My advice to people struggling with matters of faith is to serve others with love. There are many opportunities to do this inside and outside of the Church organization.

The other side of any trial, in my experience, brings to me the realization that God and His grace have been with me all the while, as evidenced by my living to tell about it.

An understanding of the difference between faith and belief makes all the difference in trials of expectation and disappointment. With faith, expectation is hope; with belief, it is demand. With faith, disappointment is an opportunity to repent; with belief, it is an excuse to reject.

P.S. I'm not sure if what you describe as "generalized stages" 1-3 are "stages of faith" as they do not seem to reflect that which is taught in Alma 32. In Alma 32, belief is shown to be rewarded, not punished, but only when it is directed at a principle that merits faith. Otherwise the counsel is to drop the object of belief and continue to seek out truth (exercise a "desire to believe") until one discovers that correct principle of faith.

[DBMormon]

zerinus - I edited it above

[zerinus]

zerinus - I edited it above

You edited what above? I don't know what you had edited.

[DBMormon]

zerinus - the statement you said you were unable to understand

[zerinus]

zerinus - the statement you said you were unable to understand

This is what I said I had not understood:

agreed, the issue is however how does one get from one vantage point to the other safely?

Your meaning is still not clear. How does one get from what vantage point to which other vantage point?

[DBMormon]

I am saying that I understand the transition from believing every word a church leader says to using the spirit of dicernment and choosing what comes from God and what doesn't but what I am asking is this

how does one go from believing it the naive innocent perfect church viewpoint, then encounter difficult issues, then transition to a more rounded, shades of gray framework and still hang onto the beauty of the gospel that stage 1 had. To me it is lost, everything becomes so nuanced and difficult to work through, it takes a lot of joy, peace, comfort, out of the church for some.

For many, having leaders led by God who speak a lot of incorect things, a lot of tru thngs that require no added revelation, and sharing a few revelatory things in the process becomes much to nuanced for the member to see value in having a church leader who proclaims to speak directly to God but gets it wrong as much as you and I.

[Buzzard]

Psst..reel, this board, while not being out and out hostile, can be pretty rough and tumble at times. Don't have such a thin skin. OTOH, there are some boards I stay away from because of the abuse I recieved there. Not any LDS sites, this is the main one I frequent, but other sites, such as a political forum watched over by rabid, bomb-throwing liberals. One bloody shirt is enough, thank you.

Maybe it's the growing up in the church vs. converting later in life thing, but for the most part, I have found that the "nuances and gray areas", once you push past the head scratching what-the-heck stage, often have led me to greater appreciation of the beauty and majesty of God's eternal plan. of course, YMMV.

[zerinus]

I am saying that I understand the transition from believing every word a church leader says to using the spirit of dicernment and choosing what comes from God and what doesn't but what I am asking is this

how does one go from believing it the naive innocent perfect church viewpoint, then encounter difficult issues, then transition to a more rounded, shades of gray framework and still hang onto the beauty of the gospel that stage 1 had. To me it is lost, everything becomes so nuanced and difficult to work through, it takes a lot of joy, peace, comfort, out of the church for some.

For many, having leaders led by God who speak a lot of incorect things, a lot of tru thngs that require no added revelation, and sharing a few revelatory things in the process becomes much to nuanced for the member to see value in having a church leader who proclaims to speak directly to God but gets it wrong as much as you and I.

I am probably the wrong person to ask that question, because I honestly cannot relate to that experience. I have been a member of the Church for over forty years, and I have never experienced anything like this. And I haven't been ignorant either. I have been studying the Church ever since I joined.

We just had a stake conference at which a General Authority (a Seventy) spoke. I attended at all the meetings in which he spoke. Priesthood leadership meeting, Saturday evening general meeting, and the Sunday morning general meeting. It was a veritable spiritual feast. He spoke with power and authority of God like nobody's business. One would have to be spiritually deaf, dumb and blind not not to have heard the voice of the Lord speaking though him. He spoke by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost without ever faltering. After having that experience, who cares about any of this stuff?

I am again reminded of that anecdote reported by Alder Marvin J Ashton, which I related in another thread. Those who fall out of the Church, it is usually because they are not in far enough.

[DBMormon]

We just had a stake conference at which a General Authority (a Seventy) spoke. I attended at all the meetings in which he spoke. Priesthood leadership meeting, Saturday evening general meeting, and the Sunday morning general meeting. It was a veritable spiritual feast. He spoke with power and authority of God like nobody's business. One would have to be spiritually deaf, dumb and blind not not to have heard the voice of the Lord speaking though him. He spoke by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost without ever faltering. After having that experience, who cares about any of this stuff?

I have had those same experiences. The difference is in how different people assimilate information differently. One who is not in the same boat can not ever speak to the issue. While I disagree with the direction he took it, I can completely understand the initial shock and betrayel a man like John Dehlin feels. I can empathize and sympathsize with the initial onset of the feeling of lost trust. What I disagree with is the lack of giving any credence to the Church's side of the story. We are all different.... which really testifies of the Savior's ability throughout the New Testament to deal with people on their level and give them just what they needed.

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[Brian 2.0]

I am probably the wrong person to ask that question, because I honestly cannot relate to that experience. I have been a member of the Church for over forty years, and I have never experienced anything like this. And I haven't been ignorant either. I have been studying the Church ever since I joined.

You can't relate. Okay.

So you do not have SYMPATHY (harmony or agreement in feeling) but do you have EMPATHY (the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another) towards someone with this experience?

If your answer is NO, then you should bow out of this thread because it's not directed at you.

If your answer is YES, and you do have empathy, do you have a desire to talk about ways to help those with this experience?

If your answer is NO to this second question, then you should bow out of this thread because it's not directed at you.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[DBMormon]

Psst..reel, this board, while not being out and out hostile, can be pretty rough and tumble at times. Don't have such a thin skin.

Psst.... if I had thin skin I would left this board about 3 hours after registerng. By the way is it too much to expect my fellow brothers and sisters in the gospel to be kind and not to personally attack their brother in Christ? In my mind before coming here, I thought I need to find a LDS discussion board where I can present my struggles and my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ will wrapthier arms around me and kindly help me to understand where I went off track and how to get back on the straight and narrow. While there are some very genuine people here and I could name about a dozen.... the bad apples far outnumber the meek and lowly. Perhaps there are other "nice guys" who simply are shy and don't speak up but it certainly is a different dynamic then I had expected.... Now I realize that having encountered this hostility I at times throw sarcasm back at the discussion but that is how I deal and will continue to when things get personal, which again should never happen here.

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon