Church History And Faith Crisis Part 3

[Darren10]

reelmormon #96;

I already gleened that first website and it seems very subjective. As for your second link, it states:

Surprised by what they find so easily online, more and more members of the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encountering crises of faith. Some even leave the fold and, feeling betrayed, join the ranks of Mormon opponents.

(bold mine)

What I've suspected thus far is that you structure your arguments and presentation here by sources outside of the LDS Church as well as from outright opponents to the Church. Is that accurate? In this case, the Salt Lake Tribune phrases their article very similar to your own phrasology here. I assume you took your phrases from sources like from the Salt Lake Tribune. Is that accurate?

The article also says:

The church "has made no effort to hide or obscure its history," Jensen said, but some aspects — such as polygamy — "haven’t been emphasized often because they were not necessarily germane to what is taught at present."

Can the LDS Church do better to explain its history, even to its own members? Sure, Jensen said. "Can we weave some of this into our seminaries, institutes and adult curriculum? I think we can, and efforts are under way to do that."

The church has assigned a staffer to create "a strategy to get church history onto the Web," he said. "We are also working on an initiative to answer some of these more pressing questions."

Late last year, the church’s publishing arm, Deseret Book, put out No Weapon Shall Prosper: New Light on Sensitive Issues to address some of the hot-button issues of Mormon history and doctrine, offering members ways to answer critics.

I agree with whatever current attempts the LDS Church may be engaged in to weave the present-day arguments into LDS curriculum.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

However, I would advise that you are careful to keep whatever unfaithful or unbelieving thoughts you may have close to home. I wouldn't guarantee how welcomed you may be otherwise.

I have absolutely no problem with people expressing concerns about the Church while in church. I have no problem sitting down with others and listening to their concerns. however, there when someone goes to church in order to propgate their own concerns and doubt as if they should be standard church teachings, I may have a problem with that. Likewise, in classes, assuming the class stays on topic, I find no problem asking questions over one's doubt concerning what the Church teaches. none at all. But if they begin to propose that their doubts are the "real truth" then I think I'd take exception to that.

If cwald came to the Spring Ward here in the Houston area then I'd go right up to him and give him a big hug and welcome him. Heck, I may even sit next to him in Sunday School. I'm cool like that.

[Senator]

I have absolutely no problem with people expressing concerns about the Church while in church. I have no problem sitting down with others and listening to their concerns. however, there when someone goes to church in order to propgate their own concerns and doubt as if they should be standard church teachings, I may have a problem with that. Likewise, in classes, assuming the class stays on topic, I find no problem asking questions over one's doubt concerning what the Church teaches. none at all. But if they begin to propose that their doubts are the "real truth" then I think I'd take exception to that.

So, as long as doubts are beningly expressed, it's ok? Just don't assert any verasity behind them.....

I believe you just unwittingly gave weight to my assertion!

If cwald came to the Spring Ward here in the Houston area then I'd go right up to him and give him a big hug and welcome him. Heck, I may even sit next to him in Sunday School. I'm cool like that.

Until he opens his mouth and says how he really feels...

Edited June 12, 2012 by Senator

[DBMormon]

I have worked my way through to the other side of the tunnel Darren. I am fine, but others are not. I will admit I still see issues that need better information. I see things that need a more forthright approach, and no my testimony isn't perfect. But I am confident in my Heavenly Father and again you seem to be grabbing at straws. How about we get back to the post. If you have a serious question ask it but frame it differently... leave out the conjecture and simply ask a question. I have no problem answering questions if it benefiets others who are in the same boat.

Of course the thread is close to my heart as any thread began by anyone here is something that interest them and concerns them.

So what is your question?

[DBMormon]

What I've suspected thus far is that you structure your arguments and presentation here by sources outside of the LDS Church as well as from outright opponents to the Church. Is that accurate? In this case, the Salt Lake Tribune phrases their article very similar to your own phrasology here. I assume you took your phrases from sources like from the Salt Lake Tribune. Is that accurate?

No. I didn't borrow phraseology from either article other then to copy and paste his quotes. your begging. I used the article on in showing you and other members do not address those in crisis the way the church's leaders would like you to. You are one of those who could use the training.

I didn't use the article's conjecture. I hadn't read the SLtribune article in like 3 months. I used Elder Jensen's direct quotes there is a difference and I used them from the first source as that article seemed to be more focused on what he said rather then interpreting it.

In fact I didn't use the Salt Lake Tribune article at all. I only supplied it as a secondary source.

Would you point out what I shared that did not come directly out of elder Jensen's mouth?

By the way elder Jensen is a great man. One whom I love and admire for way more then this interview. His heart is in the right place like many of the church leaders. I also know firsthand the trust he has from those higher then him. he gets an AAA+++ in my book.

Edited June 12, 2012 by reelmormon

[Darren10]

So, as long as doubts are beningly expressed, it's ok? Just don't assert any verasity behind them.....

I believe you just unwittingly gave weight to my assertion!

The manner which they are expressed absolutely will impact my and other's reaction. Is there a problem to this approach? Isn't this a perfectly legitimate wayto decide how and when to react to someone in any situation?

Until he opens his mouth and says how he really feels...

Like I said, it depends on how he says it.

[Darren10]

So what is your question?

How have others been betrayed?

[Log]

How have others been betrayed?

Actually, it's not that they *have* been betrayed, but that they *perceive* they have been betrayed. Perception, in this matter, to the individual, is reality.

[Darren10]

reelmormon;

I used the article on in showing you and other members do not address those in crisis the way the church's leaders would like you to.

If, then, you took this phrase from the Salt Lake Tribune or any other place, you may want to source that phrase here , acredit it, and then you'll get a much more poignant response to your inquiries. If you obscure it and try to make other's arguments seem to be your own than you'll likely not get a response to your liking or to your intended results.

I'm very willing to chalk up the near identical phrase you used with that of the SLT as coincidence, however a strong coincidence it may seem.

Would you point out what I shared that did not come directly out of elder Jensen's mouth?

Um, unless you can show me where Elder Jensen said the following (and it could very well be that i missed it), then I think I already did:

Quote

Surprised by what they find so easily online, more and more members of the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are encountering crises of faith. Some even leave the fold and, feeling betrayed, join the ranks of Mormon opponents.

(From my #101 post)

[Darren10]

Actually, it's not that they *have* been betrayed, but that they *perceive* they have been betrayed. Perception, in this matter, to the individual, is reality.

I agree.

[Darren10]

His heart is in the right place like many of the church leaders. I also know firsthand the trust he has from those higher then him. he gets an AAA+++ in my book.

My heart's in the right place as well/. Do I get a AAA+ rating as well?

Edited June 12, 2012 by Darren10

[bcuzbcuz]

bcuzbcuz #61;

My deepest sympathy to you for the loss of your loved ones.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Anti-NOMunistJackMormon]

I say this with no jest. I simply live as a Jack-Mormon. I am very spiritual and simply choose live to be a good a person as possible. When i die I suppose God will sort me out and I will be at the best place for me.

[DBMormon]

How have others been betrayed?

Actually, it's not that they *have* been betrayed, but that they *perceive* they have been betrayed. Perception, in this matter, to the individual, is reality.

Almost each time I have used the word betrayal I have used the word feelin. So yes log's answer is perfect

[DBMormon]

If, then, you took this phrase from the Salt Lake Tribune or any other place, you may want to source that phrase here , acredit it, and then you'll get a much more poignant response to your inquiries

I didn't use any phrase from some other article. and I said that before, so now your in the business of calling me a liar? sorry Darren I am not stealing phrases from anywhere. When I use wording from another place I say the source or I put it in Quotes

.

[DBMormon]

I'm very willing to chalk up the near identical phrase you used with that of the SLT as coincidence, however a strong coincidence it may seem.

Verbally your saying you are giving me the benefeit of the doubt but under your tongue your still implying I am a liar?

[DBMormon]

My heart's in the right place as well/. Do I get a AAA+ rating as well?

perhaps after you go through the training that Elder Jensen recommend for members like you

[DBMormon]

Um, unless you can show me where Elder Jensen said the following (and it could very well be that i missed it), then I think I already did:

Those are his quotes. Just because deseret News or LDS.ORg decided not to pick up on it doesn't mean it wasn't said. The interview was recorded. It is fact. You may deny it but then you would be showing everyone here you have placed blinders on to the truth.

Well to make it tougher to keep those blinders on I thought I would add a few more sources. Your making yourself look silly.

http://uk.reuters.co...E80T1CP20120130

http://www.deseretne...rnet-world.html acknolwledges Jesens interview on page 2 - doesn't include his quotes.

and other church folks saying the same thing

http://www.freerepub...n/2840942/posts

I will say it seems odd that Deseretnews decides not to include the quotes... even though they are fact. instead they just paraphrase him and soften what he says.

http://mormon-chroni...ies-of.html?m=1 - partial written transscript

AUDIO OF THE JENSEN INTERVIEW - www. fileswap.com/dl/5iKOuShH9D/ElderJensenQandAInterlacedEdited.mp3

TAKE OUT THE SPACE BETWEEN THE WWW. and FILESWAP then copy and paste

hmmmmmm.... maybe for once you can say sorry. I may have views you vehemently disagree with but I promise you, you always have my honesty.

Edited June 12, 2012 by reelmormon

[Darth_Bill]

From the OP.

(and my journey is taking me out of the church, so you know how I answered the questions.)

1. Many of you have gone through this. Why helped you come out the other side?
   

Just study and knowing someone that left the church that I simply couldn’t dismiss.

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefited you to regain faith?

I’m new at this. Fair helped keep me active for the last decade but eventually, the “shelf” couldn’t hold any more.

3.) What advice do you give someone who is trying to find it again and seems to losing it within the grasp of their hands each day?

Be true to yourself and what you feel.

4.) How would you change the advice for someone who is going through this who holds a major calling? One who has no calling at all? One who is burdened by other responsibilities of the world and has little alone time to work these things out?

Not sure. I was the teacher for my High Priest’s group and was growing slightly annoyed at folklore and the manuals, but it wasn’t nearly the cause of the problem. I’ve never really enjoyed church but the church has helped me with every major situation in my life, so I kept going. I eventually asked to be released and when it wasn’t granted, I stopped going. I was finally released 16 months later.

5.)If you had the person one on one, face to face, what would you say to them?

Be true to yourself.

6.) What is your feelings, view, understanding of the beauty, peace, and fulfillment that awaits on the other side of this trial?

7.) For those who lost faith, Are you happier now then you were when you were in Phase #1?, #2?, #3? What is your center revolved around now?

Much happier (engineer...the illogic of christianity and mormonism was literally driving me crazy for two and a half decades). All the inner conflicts are gone. What disturbs me more is the world view that I used to hold and how it hampered me in my relationships. I had very uncharitable thoughts about other people, but I’m now over it. I have a loving wife that is working this through with me. Right now, that is my center, as it was before.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Darth_Bill

[Log]

http://mormon-chroni...ies-of.html?m=1 - partial written transscript

AUDIO OF THE JENSEN INTERVIEW - www. fileswap.com/dl/5iKOuShH9D/ElderJensenQandAInterlacedEdited.mp3

TAKE OUT THE SPACE BETWEEN THE WWW. and FILESWAP then copy and paste

hmmmmmm.... maybe for once you can say sorry. I may have views you vehemently disagree with but I promise you, you always have my honesty.

Cool! I've been trying to get SamIAm to send me that file for the longest time! Thanks!

[bcuzbcuz]

No, it has as much value as saying "the wife who has an unfaithful husband is because he didn't love her enough."

"Far enough" into the Church is an indication of one's commitment to the Church and not the Church's commitment to the individual.

Whether or not the claim is correct, if one is going to argue effectively against it, one should portray it properly.

You might contend that my portrayal puts a twist to the old saying by switching from the man as the 'loving enough', but I disagree. The salient word is "enough". There is never "enough" when someone is looking to place fault. It's as useful as "if only". "If only" you had done this or "if only" you had done that, things would be different. Cute...trite....and useless.

[DBMormon]

Log - your welcome as always. It is a great interview.

[DBMormon]

I already gleened that first website and it seems very subjective.

So now that All has been attributed to Elder Jensen correctly - is it possible you are very subjective as well?

[Darren10]

Those are his quotes. Just because deseret News or LDS.ORg decided not to pick up on it doesn't mean it wasn't said.

Oh, please. Who denied he gave this interview? Me? Nope. in fact, I expressed support for what Jensen is acredited to have said. After citing his position I wrote: "I agree with whatever current attempts the LDS Church may be engaged in to weave the present-day arguments into LDS curriculum." Where do you presume that i only go by LDS.org and Deseret News (which i hardly ever read)? Good grief.

What I was getting at was not to call you a liar but rather where you're coming from. All this time i had thought you were writing about yourself and structuring your thread in a wa to help others going through what you went through and that you yourself were witnessing many people going through a crisis of faith. Now it seems you are going off of reports that many are doubting the Church and feeling betrayed by what they perceive as its leaders having covered up its dubious history. Is that correct. i'm only trying to get a handle from where you're coming from. To this day I have not been satisfied that you're citing the sources of your concern. I'm attempting to get you to do so for the sake of clarity. I pointed directly to the virtually same phrases you have been using as found in the Salt Lake Tribune. The SLT was the first time I think i got a hint as to the source of your concern. That's it. This has nothing to do with me calling you a liar or anything of the sort. I am advocating to simply be forthright with the source of your concerns and that doing so you'll much morel ikely get the responses you desire.

Well to make it tougher to keep those blinders on I thought I would add a few more sources. Your making yourself look silly.

http://uk.reuters.co...E80T1CP20120130

http://www.deseretne...rnet-world.html acknolwledges Jesens interview on page 2 - doesn't include his quotes.

and other church folks saying the same thing

http://www.freerepub...n/2840942/posts

I will say it seems odd that Deseretnews decides not to include the quotes... even though they are fact. instead they just paraphrase him and soften what he says.

http://mormon-chroni...ies-of.html?m=1 - partial written transscript

AUDIO OF THE JENSEN INTERVIEW - www. fileswap.com/dl/5iKOuShH9D/ElderJensenQandAInterlacedEdited.mp3

TAKE OUT THE SPACE BETWEEN THE WWW. and FILESWAP then copy and paste

hmmmmmm.... maybe for once you can say sorry. I may have views you vehemently disagree with but I promise you, you always have my honesty.

No sorry is necessay but thanks for asking me for one. Thank you also for the links. The first link said very little to nothing about Jensen's interview. I mentioned a lot about homosexuality but I do not recall inquiring about that topic on this thread. The second link did not mention jensen (as you noted) much at all but it did mention the following about Daniel Petersen: "Peterson agrees with the LDS Church's attempts to make its history more accessible through efforts like the Joseph Smith Papers project. "Since I believe the claims of the church to be true," he said, "I think the best policy is to get the story out there."

Peterson said the problem is not so much that there are no answers to historical questions, but that people discover this or that historical fact they had never heard before. They then feel like the church had been hiding the fact and so lose a sense of trust." This, I think, is at least part of the answers you are looking for, correct? If so, as I noted above, I too agree with this approach. furthermore, if your concern is founded upon news reports of members going through a "crisis of faith", you should also notice that there have been reported responses to this "crisis".

The third link is nothing more than a repeat of the previous links (common on Free Republic).

Thank you for the audio. unfortunately i am not a tech knowledgable. Do I paste it in Windows Media player? Quicktime? iTunes? I binged the address and got hits on the exmormon which I find useless, an Asian site, Soundcloud, and some other website. None seem to play the audio.

[Storm Rider]

Having been a student of history my entire life I have never felt like there was a problem between the history of the Church and my faith. I reject the mere assumption that history should or would pose a crisis of faith. I reject any attempt to portray a "faithful" representation of Church history as anything other than a faithful representation of Church history.

I swear; it is as if boneheads had never read the Bible, both OT and NT. You want to tell me that it is not a faithful accounting of history? Even then, we are talking about adulterers, murderers, and pretty disreputable people. Get people, that the apostles sat the feet of the Savior and still chose to deny him! Who does that? That's right; the chosen of God did that, do that, and will do that. The very elect did that and now you want to tell me that Joseph was human? Wake the crap up, children! We are human; all of us are. Just because a man is called of God does not mean he is perfect or will be perfect. ALL IT MEANS IS....WAIT FOR IT....THAT HE IS CALLED OF GOD.

Critics, the faithful, each of us can be so incredibly boneheaded at times. I shake my head in wonder as to how prophets became perfect; tell me how many perfect prophets have we had in the OT and the NT? Guess what? We are going to have the same number today.