Church History And Faith Crisis Part 3

[DBMormon]

For all those who have followed the previous two threads on this topic I wanted to begin a discussion on how to repair the damage done in moving through different stages of faith.

I know there is a lot of science behind these stages of faith and different models to view things through.

For the sake of this discussion we will focus on just a few generalized stages.

1.) A person have a very black and white, innocent, naive view of their faith. They accept everything at face value and it is very easy to assimilate their reality of truth and fiction.

2.) One encounters information that forces them to re-evaluate their beliefs and what they hold to be true. Their faith is no longer simple or cut & dry and in fact can be very complicated.

3.) One must move their beliefs to handle the new information. We will assume for this discussion one still wants to have faith in the LDS church and has reassimilated their viewpoint to be able to incorporate that.

Now the issue - Many who are at level 1 above find the church to be awesome. Almost magical. It seems to fit perfectly with all the visions, miracles, healings they have read. Seagulls eating crickets, rain coming when people pay tithing, Men speaking face to face with God. The Church is extremely fulfilling and is everything one needs from their faith.

When one encounters in #2 that prophets may not speak to God directly, some miracles have been way over exaggerated, some miracles were much more coincidence then first surmised. This rips the #1 view right out of them.

Once someone makes it to #3 the church has become for some an entirely different enity then one fell in love with. While some seem to find more fulfillment at #3, many are left feeling like the Monk Elder Holland quoted in "the only true God"

In 399, when a letter from Theophilus, the bishop of Alexandria, insisted that the biblical description of God was only allegorical and that the monks must not attribute to God any anthropomorphic characteristics, one Sarapion, an elderly monk of great reputation, found himself unable to pray to the new God, this God of the philosophers, at all. Falling on the ground he groaned: “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, and I have none to grasp, and I know not whom to adore or to address.”

While perhaps the LDS deity has not changed, almost every facet of the their revelaed religion has... at least to them

The church becomes to intricate, too many loopholes, too many hoops, too much stuff that no longer is simple and clean cut. There becomes way too much effort to hold faith and to stave off the doubt. Way too many shades of Gray.

For some this takes the joy out of active membership. They see the church as too complicated to find the prior peace and fulfillment that once came so easy to them. They want it, but struggle to hold onto it. It seems to always be the proverbial carrot at the end of a stick just out of reach.

For those who want to find fulfillment in the gospel please address the following questions in sincerity knowing that some who read this will be in this boat. They lack faith to grab back onto the rod and yet whisper out "Help thou my unbelief". All these individuals want is the impossible.... to go back to the way things were.

1.) Many of you have gone through this. Why helped you come out the other side?

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefeited you to regain faith?

3.) What advice do you give someone who is trying to find it again and seems to losing it within the grasp of their hands each day?

4.) How would you change the advice for someone who is going through this who holds a major calling? One who has no calling at all? One who is burdened by other responsibilities of the world and has little alone time to work these things out?

5.)If you had the person one on one, face to face, what would you say to them?

6.) What is your feelings, view, understanding of the beauty, peace, and fulfillment that awaits on the other side of this trial?

7.) For those who lost faith, Are you happier now then you were when you were in Phase #1?, #2?, #3? What is your center revolved around now?

Edited June 10, 2012 by reelmormon

[Freedom]

I can honestly say I have never gone through this. From my earliest years it was very apparent to me that prophets had opinions and that there was a difference between a book written by Joseph Fielding Smith or Bruce R McConkie and the scriptures. One would have to live in a bubble to avoid this awareness. I think we need to distinguish between faith and belief. Faith comes after a witness of the holy ghost by acting on a belief. A true testimony brought about through this divine revelation is a powerful guide. I was very aware of the strong political views of Ezra Taft Benson and the shift he went through when he became president of the church. I was taught about the foibles of old testament prophets and of the strong opinions of Paul. I read Peters denial and Jonahs temper tantrum. I never understood the hypocrisy.

Testimony begins with the atonement. Perspective begins with knowledge. Knowledge precedes revelation. Having an open mind like a little child, as the savior teaches us, precedes knowledge. So, of you do not have an open mind and are willing to accept things without prejudice, you will find what you need.

[DBMormon]

I can honestly say I have never gone through this. From my earliest years it was very apparent to me that prophets had opinions and that there was a difference between a book written by Joseph Fielding Smith or Bruce R McConkie and the scriptures. One would have to live in a bubble to avoid this awareness.

As a convert I did not have your experience. I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

[zerinus]

As a convert I did not have your experience. I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

Have you heard of "depending on borrowed light"? Early Church leaders often warned against that. It was a big thing with Heber C. Kimball, but others including Brigham Young talked about it. In the LDS Church we are not expected to blindly follow anybody. Every Church member is commanded to have the Holy Ghost, and be able to discern truth from error for himself, including when a Church leader makes a mistake. If you are one of those people who can't do that, then I would say you are the one who has a problem, not the Church or somebody else.

[DBMormon]

Have you heard of "depending on borrowed light"? Early Church leaders often warned against that. It was a big thing with Heber C. Kimball, but others including Brigham Young talked about it. In the LDS Church we are not expected to blindly follow anybody. Every Church member is commanded to have the Holy Ghost, and be able to discern truth from error for himself, including when a Church leader makes a mistake. If you are one of those people who can't do that, then I would say you are the one who has a problem, not the Church or somebody else.

Why do you always seem to want to make things personal and accusatory, you may need to evaluate that. I think there are some things in the gospel about that as well.

[DBMormon]

You know what people who have a faith crisis don't need? The sorry your faith isn't as strong as mine self righteous attitude that way too many of the posters here have. Arrogance is not the gospel. Self Righteousness is not a positive trait. Always belittling someone who you think has less faith then you is not a Christlike attrribute. We are called to love, the empathize, to support, to go after the one and leave the 99. All too often I am confronted with the fact that way too many people mocking from the great and spacious building are temple recommend carrying members of the church.

Personally I would much rather lack Faith then Humility and kindness

[zerinus]

Why do you always seem to want to make things personal and accusatory, you may need to evaluate that. I think there are some things in the gospel about that as well.

Why is it that so many of the threads you start follow the "poisoning the well" strategy? Do you know what poisoning the well means? Here is a definition form Wikipedia:

Poisoning the well is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well can be a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864). The origin of the term lies in well poisoning, an ancient wartime practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army in order to diminish the invading army's strength. Source

[rodheadlee]

I though Zerinus did great, up until that last sentence. That was not very nice. But anyway we do each need the Holy Spirit to confirm things for us. This is the most important thing for us, personal revelation through the Holy Spirit.

Edited June 11, 2012 by rodheadlee

[zerinus]

You know what people who have a faith crisis don't need? The sorry your faith isn't as strong as mine self righteous attitude that way too many of the posters here have. Arrogance is not the gospel. Self Righteousness is not a positive trait. Always belittling someone who you think has less faith then you is not a Christlike attrribute. We are called to love, the empathize, to support, to go after the one and leave the 99. All too often I am confronted with the fact that way too many people mocking from the great and spacious building are temple recommend carrying members of the church.

Personally I would much rather lack Faith then Humility and kindness

So you want to poison the wells, and at the same time claim sympathy as well! Sorry, it don't work that way.

[cwald]

I think this is a good example of why we need john dehlins groups like staylds and NOM....most active members cannot and will not try to understand the issue.

The "pray harder" approach just isn't going to work for me.

[DBMormon]

I though Zerinus did great, up until that last sentence

Rodheadlee - I agree with all but the last sentence too. You see some folks here have such a disdain for certain individuals that they allow their intelligent, informed, positive contribution post to be defiled by those feelings for others. I find it interesting that other then pointing out when one seems to be attacking another, my posts are limited to the insight i wish to share. Others lack the self control to do that. It makes it a me vs you discussion instead of a platform to share ideas. I have an uncle that whenever you get into a political discussion with him, just as you start to get the edge showing facts and sharing ideas, he comes in and makes a personal joke about you and make the conversation personal.... right then is the very moment when everyone else in the room can see he has lost control of the debate. A few folks here see me as the wolf in sheeps clothing and yet those same individuals if they asked 100 other posters they might get a similar view of themeselves and how their comments come accross.

We really could use more kindness..... kindness never hurt anyone

Zerinus, I like your eyes! see how easy that was

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

cwald - I understand exactly how you feel. Your right to some extent... many of those on the far end of the faithful spectrum do not understand the issues that those in the middle or on the fringe deal with. They don't understand that not everyone sees the world as they do, not everyone can just make the peg fit the hole... so sometimes looking for help here is difficult unless you talk to the right person. there are caring LDS on here. If you message me I will share who they are. Otherwise you may find yourself getting frustrated here

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

So you want to poison the wells

For the record Zerinus, you are very judgemental. May i say that I have spoken to two high up leaders in the church regarding things I see as issues. Do you think they told me I was poisoning the wells? Nope. Do you think they condemned me, or suggesteded that I lacked faith? no, In fact they were concerned, they listened, they empathized and one flat out stated that he understood how some of the church's actions led to this struggle for some. Your approach is bad. Go back and read your tone and selection of words in the thread on grace.

at the same time claim sympathy as well! Sorry, it don't work that way

It does work that way. You never make it personal with meanness. personal with care and concern... sure. Your attitude leaves a lot to be desired. You should have apoligized a long time ago for your comments in the grace thread, but you never did. While you say all can see my true colors.... they can see yours too!!!

You will be damned if you don't! Take that any way you like.

You sound like you ought to be the bishop of the Southern Baptist Convention. Not sure why they have called you a bishop of Mormonism.

My mission here is to call you to repentance!

By the way, I don’t believe that you are a Mormon, let alone a Mormon bishop!

you wouldn't last five minutes as a Mormon bishop.

That is because your entire thread is agenda driven from top to bottom. It does not inspire people with the desire to want to participate.

The last one was on page 7 out of 9 pages.... hmm distorted view.

For the record I am a good Bishop of a great Ward ------ Reelmormon 1 Zerinus 0

I am a Mormon, active, temple recommend, have a testimony reelmormon2 zerinus 0

I have been a bishop for 3 and 3/4 years Reelmormon3 zerinus 0

Thread on grace got a lot of conversation reelmormon4 zerinus 0

I will continue to repent each day and you may call me anytime reelmormon 4 zerinus 1

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

alright back to the OP.... does anyone have thoughts on the questions that were asked.

[DBMormon]

I think this is a good example of why we need john dehlins groups like staylds and NOM....most active members cannot and will not try to understand the issue.

Cwald - I agree we need dissenting voices. We need folks to stand up and share contrasting opinions. The truth has nothing to hide from. I will also say though one must make an active decision in their mind to head towards faith and belief or towards disbelief. Faith, as I have learned, must be fought for. "Hep thou my unbelief"

I will disagree though that active members do not understand the issue. Many of them don't but many of them do. I am active, I have a testimony, While I struggle, I choose faith and move towards it. I never put blinders on. I am open to dealing with difficult issues, but If evidence is mounted on both sides, eventually after working out the details I choose faith

[zerinus]

alright back to the OP.... does anyone have thoughts on the questions that were asked.

Yes, I do. Your OP consists of poisoning the wells. It is based on certain premises which are assumed as "given," but which are essentially problematic, and are not valid premises. You are not looking for an answer to your questions, but posing them in order to establish your false premises; because whichever way one answers your questions, those false premises must necessarily be presumed. They are trick questions. You are asking them not because you are really interested in the answers, but because one cannot answer them without taking for granted your false premises--which presumably is what you are trying to promote.

Edited June 11, 2012 by zerinus

[cwald]

I think the OP questions are very pertinent. Being new here, I don't really want to say much...I'm not ready to get raked over the coals.

[cwald]

Cwald - I agree we need dissenting voices. We need folks to stand up and share contrasting opinions. The truth has nothing to hide from. I will also say though one must make an active decision in their mind to head towards faith and belief or towards disbelief. Faith, as I have learned, must be fought for. "Hep thou my unbelief"

I will disagree though that active members do not understand the issue. Many of them don't but many of them do. I am active, I have a testimony, While I struggle, I choose faith and move towards it. I never put blinders on. I am open to dealing with difficult issues, but If evidence is mounted on both sides, eventually after working out the details I choose faith

Oh really? And how do the active members on this board treat you?

[Log]

1.) Many of you have gone through this. Why helped you come out the other side?

I don't exactly fit the mold of your post, but I hope you don't mind if I contribute.

I actively rebelled and accepted completely, and without reservation, atheism, and all of its logical consequences. If it were not for direct revelation of the existence of God, I would have remained one.

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefeited you to regain faith?

Nothing would have helped other than direct evidence. I accepted no man's word for anything. I had an interview with my stake president, at his request, probably when I should have been ordained a priest. I told him there was no God, that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that he had no proof. That was a short interview. Needless to say, I was not ordained a priest.

3.) What advice do you give someone who is trying to find it again and seems to losing it within the grasp of their hands each day?

Ignore the Church and the history thereof, and disregard whatever disagreements one has with the leaders: shelve them all, or, at least sufficiently that you might be able to perform this next action: pray with all your might, mind, and strength to gain a witness from God about whatever it is your issue is, and DO NOT CEASE until you receive.

4.) How would you change the advice for someone who is going through this who holds a major calling? One who has no calling at all? One who is burdened by other responsibilities of the world and has little alone time to work these things out?

I believe my advice applies to anyone.

5.)If you had the person one on one, face to face, what would you say to them?

Just that, only with more detail.

6.) What is your feelings, view, understanding of the beauty, peace, and fulfillment that awaits on the other side of this trial?

I don't know how to answer that question in words - it cannot be expressed. It is worth it.

[why me]

As a convert I did not have your experience. I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

I think that it is impossible to follow all what the 'servants' are saying. However, that being said, they basically say all the same thing: follow the commandments. The problem begins when one attempts to follow all the advice given at general conference where at times the GAs seem to handle the smaller things that people may be facing or experiencing.

However, basically, it goes like this: obey the commandments.

[why me]

As a convert I did not have your experience. I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

What is the mouth of god? If one is the wife of a GA, this may be problematic if she believes all the the GA husband says comes from god. The LDS GAs are people, human beings. As i just said, it would be impossible to follow all that GAs say at general conferance because they speak to personal issues at times. But in general, one should follow the commandments when are general for all.

[why me]

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefeited you to regain faith?

Nine times out ten those who lose faith have done so from the internet. They read critic interpretations and begin to lose faith. They also become addicted at looking for information that confirms what the critics say and as they do so, they search other critics sites and find 'confirmation' from other critics. They then read exit stories from posters and how such information made them lose faith and consider the church a fraud.

This begins the process of loss of faith for a few members. It is very difficult to find faith again after this. The more one reads betrayal stories from exmembers, the more one feels betrayed and becomes apart of the betrayed crowd.

[Brian 2.0]

Thanks for this thread. Your OP is just what I personally am going through. I don't quite understand how you are poising the well, by the way... I find no statements that "everyone goes through these steps" or any statements that would make your post invalid. Zerinus, you said:

"It is based on certain premises which are assumed as "given," but which are essentially problematic, and are not valid premises.

Where specifically does this come into play? All the questions I read below don't seem to have non-valid premises in them.

1.) Many of you have gone through this. Why helped you come out the other side?

Still in it, so not out the other side necessarily yet, but close to full non-belief in the truth claims of church and existence of God, at least I find both highly improbable. People that have helped me through are friends and family willing to listen without belittling. And also understanding that my reasons for my beliefs might not be the reasons they first assumed. Sites like this have helped at times and hurt at others.

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefeited you to regain faith?

If I knew, I probably would have done it. My main issue is that I found "personal witness from God" as a unreliable method for determining truth because it seemed impossible to differentiate what was coming from God and what was coming from my own head. With the personal witness off the table, as I looks at the evidences, the scales seems to tip the other way.

3.) What advice do you give someone who is trying to find it again and seems to losing it within the grasp of their hands each day?

It's tough. If you really don't want to know, and don't want to change your beliefs... then the best thing is not to investigate further or think about it. Just believe. Or really really want to believe and pray and pray, and eventually you'll might find an experience that makes you believe.

4.) How would you change the advice for someone who is going through this who holds a major calling? One who has no calling at all? One who is burdened by other responsibilities of the world and has little alone time to work these things out?

There's no rush. You don't need to make decisions right away. Be a big ship with a small rudder. If you don't feel comfortable saying what you need to say in your calling then asked to be released. You don't even need to say exactly why you need to be released. Just say for personal reasons you don't want to discuss at that time.

5.)If you had the person one on one, face to face, what would you say to them?

Same as above.

6.) What is your feelings, view, understanding of the beauty, peace, and fulfillment that awaits on the other side of this trial?

I'm way for comfortable and happy then I assumed I would be before this. When I was a TBM I assumed certain things about people like me. I assumed wrong. While I don't have as many "answers" anymore. Not having the answers doesn't scare me. And it definitely doesn't leave me without a moral compass. In fact, I feel more kinship with those around me now. I used to view "the world" and non-members as either the enemy, misguided, in need of what I had in order to get back to God, or good-but-could-be-better if in the church. I no longer do.

7.) For those who lost faith, Are you happier now then you were when you were in Phase #1?, #2?, #3? What is your center revolved around now?

Sort of answered this above. I wouldn't say I'm happier now. I would say I was probably "happier" in #1. I wouldn't say I was better, but I'd say I was probably happier. It feels good to have all the answers. But once my brain started asking the questions and cognitive dissonance started, there was no going back.. at least I haven't found a way yet.

[Brian 2.0]

Nine times out ten those who lose faith have done so from the internet. They read critic interpretations and begin to lose faith. They also become addicted at looking for information that confirms what the critics say and as they do so, they search other critics sites and find 'confirmation' from other critics. They then read exit stories from posters and how such information made them lose faith and consider the church a fraud.

This begins the process of loss of faith for a few members. It is very difficult to find faith again after this. The more one reads betrayal stories from exmembers, the more one feels betrayed and becomes apart of the betrayed crowd.

As one who is going through this... do you not recommend reading anything that is not from a believer? I personally don't like angry exit stories and I'm in no way looking to tear down the church, so I stay away from that stuff. But I don't feel like I'm doing something wrong by listening or reading a "critic" and their arguments.

Just because someone has an agenda doesn't mean you should throw out their arguments.

You've got to look at the arguments. That's a very tough thing to do and you gotta dig deep and check sources and do you due diligence, but if I have a problem with the Book of Abraham and I'm trying to find answers, I don't think it's good due diligence to just read LDS Egyptologists writings. I don't discredit LDS Egyptologists, I just have to weight their evidence against the evidence of others as well.

Both sides have confirmation bias. Its inevitable. We all have it. So you've got to try and check yourself and really try to be open to all sides. It's a hard process.

But if you are curious, and set out to find answers, I definitely don't recommend listening to ONLY General Conference, FAIR, and believing sources. That's like being on a jury and listening to your iPod during all of the prosecutions arguments and witnesses.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Brian 2.0

[zerinus]

Wow! It looks like the entire board is now being taken over by wolves in sheep clothing. Very interesting.