Church History And Faith Crisis Part 3

[zerinus]

I know you didn't say, but you repeated it, so these may not be your thoughts... but this quote is highly offensive and untrue for a LOT of people. I was as "in" as they come. I would love to know if you actually believe this yourself and why you do.

Of course I believe it. I believe it because I can perceive that it is true. The metaphor may not be applicable to everyone who apostatizes from the Church; but it is applicable to quite a lot of them. People leave the Church for different reasons. This is the leas serious of them. More serious reasons have to do with rebellion and committing major transgressions.

[Darren10]

bcuzbcuz #61;

My deepest sympathy to you for the loss of your loved ones.

[DBMormon]

Isn't that the basis of your post? Aren't you essentially speaking about your own faith crisis when you ask about how we are to help others who are going through some sort of faith crisis? There was nothing wrong with zerinus' #4 post. It may be a bit blunt for your taste but the content of his post is solid.

darren - Yes this post in some ways reflects my own faith crisis at times in my life, that is no secret. But I am not alone and feel value and letting others know there are some of us who can relate. As I go back and read your posted replies to my posts I place you in the same boat at Zerinus in some ways, so i can see why you would find value in his personal attacks.

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[Craig Paxton]

I’ve debated whether I should post a response to this thread or not…but I believe that I have a perspective that may be beneficial to some:

My disaffection from the church began while serving as a member of my stake’s high council and ended while serving as Young Men’s President in my home ward.

I believe that your post describes my faith journey to lack of faith in the church…it just didn’t end well from a believers perspective.

This is from my perspective…and may not be applicable to your experience.

1.) Many of you have gone through this. What helped you come out the other side?

I finally reached a point in my faith journey were I could no longer live in limbo…I was in a tortuous cognitive dissonance state…when a thought popped into my mind…what if it’s not what it claims to be…I had NEVER had this thought before…the very idea was disgusting to me and an impossibility…but there it was…that question. I guess I had reached the point in my faith journey whereas Alma 32 states I allowed the seed to be planted…and I allowed it to grow…amazingly allowing this seed to grow…seemed to resolve all of my questions and doubts…every problem that I could see in the claims of the church simply disappeared. No longer did I need to nuance, excuse or justify various doctrines to make them sync with what I had come to believe was reality….all of these issues I had simply disappeared if the church was not what it claimed.

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefeited you to regain faith?

To be honest…I tried everything…numerous meetings with church apologists, meetings with General Authorities…meeting with stake president and my bishop. While they gave answers to my questions their answers were unsatisfactory and didn’t resolve my questions. I feel I gave it my best shot and was honest in the attempt. I do not now nor did I then feel like I ever wanted to leave the church…yet here I am.

3.) What advice do you give someone who is trying to find it again and seems to losing it within the grasp of their hands each day?

I think that those who value belief more than truth…OR….are able to some how find a way to make truth where I could find none are able to navigate this difficult path. It just didn’t work that way for me.

4.) How would you change the advice for someone who is going through this who holds a major calling? One who has no calling at all? One who is burdened by other responsibilities of the world and has little alone time to work these things out?

Take your time…there is no reason to rush anything…be certain of your conclusions before moving on…do your due diligence…it is the only way that you will ever find peace in this journey….but also trust your instincts…if you cannot find peace with your conclusions know there you may be forcing the round peg in the square hole and keep trying to find a solution that does give you that peace…then you’ll know you’ve found “Your Truth” .

5.)If you had the person one on one, face to face, what would you say to them?

Take it slow…don’t rush into any conclusions or actions…but don’t give up either…there really is light at the end of the tunnel…and its NOT a train…its daylight and its wonderful.

6.) What is your feelings, view, understanding of the beauty, peace, and fulfillment that awaits on the other side of this trial?

It real and its wonderful when you reach “Your Truth” ( I use “Your Truth” rather than “The Truth” Knowing that none here are ever going to agree on what “the Truth really is…but if you can get to that comfortable place that is truth to you…you will be at peace and find joy and happiness.

7.) For those who lost faith, Are you happier now then you were when you were in Phase #1?, #2?, #3? What is your center revolved around now?

Happier? Well I was happy then and I’m happy now…Am I glad that I took the journey that got me where I am today…absolutely I wouldn’t change a thing…it has made my life so much fuller and I’ve been able to discover so many new and wonderful things about life and my place in this world that I would have never dared discover as a believing member of the church. I like to express it this way…for me it was equivalent to taking that deep breath of crisp mountain top air first thing in the morning just as the sun is rising…the sensation is exhilarating…but the journey to get there is fraught with all kinds of obstacle and challenges…but very worth every experience you go through to get there.

[Craig Paxton]

Nine times out ten those who lose faith have done so from the internet. They read critic interpretations and begin to lose faith. They also become addicted at looking for information that confirms what the critics say and as they do so, they search other critics sites and find 'confirmation' from other critics. They then read exit stories from posters and how such information made them lose faith and consider the church a fraud.

This begins the process of loss of faith for a few members. It is very difficult to find faith again after this. The more one reads betrayal stories from exmembers, the more one feels betrayed and becomes apart of the betrayed crowd.

This is a simplitic explaination of the deconversion process...trust me the truth is far more complicated...

[DBMormon]

Craig Paxton - I think regardless of what side of the tunnel one comes out on, most of your advice is unbiased, fair, and helpful

Thank you

[DBMormon]

this thread isn't about whether the church is true or not. It is assuming it is but how one goes from an early stage of faith to a later one without becoming a casuality along the way. Of course like every other thread everyone has an agenda and everyone thinks they know yours.

[cacheman]

Take your time…there is no reason to rush anything…be certain of your conclusions before moving on…do your due diligence…it is the only way that you will ever find peace in this journey….but also trust your instincts…if you cannot find peace with your conclusions know there you may be forcing the round peg in the square hole and keep trying to find a solution that does give you that peace…then you’ll know you’ve found “Your Truth” .

Take it slow…don’t rush into any conclusions or actions…but don’t give up either…there really is light at the end of the tunnel…and its NOT a train…its daylight and its wonderful.

It real and its wonderful when you reach “Your Truth” ( I use “Your Truth” rather than “The Truth” Knowing that none here are ever going to agree on what “the Truth really is…but if you can get to that comfortable place that is truth to you…you will be at peace and find joy and happiness.

Happier? Well I was happy then and I’m happy now…Am I glad that I took the journey that got me where I am today…absolutely I wouldn’t change a thing…it has made my life so much fuller and I’ve been able to discover so many new and wonderful things about life and my place in this world that I would have never dared discover as a believing member of the church. I like to express it this way…for me it was equivalent to taking that deep breath of crisp mountain top air first thing in the morning just as the sun is rising…the sensation is exhilarating…but the journey to get there is fraught with all kinds of obstacle and challenges…but very worth every experience you go through to get there.

The way you presented this option/path really resonates with me. Probably good advice and encouragement for people moving in many different, and seemingly contradictory directions.

cacheman

[Darren10]

darren - Yes this post in some ways reflects my own faith crisis at times in my life, that is no secret. But I am not alone and feel value and letting others know there are some of us who can relate. As I go back and read your posted replies to my posts I place you in the same boat at Zerinus in some ways, so i can see why you would find value in his personal attacks.

so, if the basis of your post is "personal" why would zerinus be at fault for making his posts personal. The essence of your faith crisis posts is not about helping a supposed so many others out there but to help yourself. To this day I do not know if you want to simply criticize the Church or if you truly want some sort of satisfacotry respose to help ease your faith crisis. But I stand by my words. I have read several of yourp osts and they consistantly lack any hint of acknowleging your own faults in any way and place culpability upon things external to you. If humility is a top quality to you, and I agree it should be, than why are you not showing any? Why is your faith crisis seemilgly not your fault in any way?

Edited June 11, 2012 by Darren10

[cwald]

Good post Craig Paxton.

It only took me one day - one thread, on this site to be accused of being a wolf in sheep clothing. Wow.

I was an EQP when I first got accused of being a wolf --- exact words. I'm not sure how far "in" one has to be before they don't get called out as apostatizing for not being in far enough.

Anyway, I often feel the urge to go back to church and rebuild some of those burnt bridges with family and the membership - I mean, the LDS church is as good as any pathway I've found to find peace and the gods...but then I am reminded about how so many of the LDS members view me (a heretic and a doubter) and the entire John Dehlin crowd as nothing more than a wolves in sheep clothing....folks with an agenda to bring down the church.

That really doesn't make people feel welcome, and doesn't sound like they really want me in their midst on Sunday, even though they keep saying they do. Oh sure, they want somebody who looks like me at church, as long as I don't express concerns and doubts or talk honestly about the history and doctrine...

This Reelmormon feller, he's being honest, and because he is a active bishop he's getting told that he shouldn't post this kind of stuff because it makes members uncomfortable. This kind of "wolf in sheep clothing" attitude is not going to end well for the church. They are going push a lot of good people out. I see it happening all to often.

[DBMormon]

I didn't present the thread as personal and even if one does it does not give others a pass to attack someone personally. If you think that is ok you likely have much bigger issues then me. Personally degrading others and questioning their faith is unacceptable... in fact it is a rule on this board. Are you bigger then the rules?

I have never said I have no fault in my personal circumstances. I agree in the opening thread that it is a particualr way some of us assimilate information that leads to this. Faulty expectations, ect... but if your implying faith crisis is due to sin or some other rebellious trait... you would be wrong and overstepping your ability to state such. Faith Crisis is due to feelings of loss of trust or betrayal where the expectations one had of their faith were not met. We can debate whether those expectations were realistic or not but we can not say it is becasue they weren't in the church far enough, or they sinned, or if they speak about their issues they are posioning the well. sorry but that is antithesis of the right response

Because you and others are faithful doesn't give you the right to be harsh and demeaning to others who are not in your click.

[Darren10]

it has made my life so much fuller and I’ve been able to discover so many new and wonderful things about life and my place in this world that I would have never dared discover as a believing member of the church.

Out of curiosity. What are two discoveries you made that you would never have had had you remained a "believing member of the church"?

Edited June 11, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Anyway, I often feel the urge to go back to church and rebuild some of those burnt bridges with family and the membership - I mean, the LDS church is as good as any pathway I've found to find peace and the gods...but then I am reminded about how so many of the LDS members view me (a heretic and a doubter) and the entire John Dehlin crowd as nothing more than a wolves in sheep clothing....folks with an agenda to bring down the church.

Go to church and participate. I think you'll be surprised as to how welcome you'll be made to feel.

[Craig Paxton]

Craig Paxton - I think regardless of what side of the tunnel one comes out on, most of your advice is unbiased, fair, and helpful

Thank you

I should also probabaly state the obvioius...in an attempt to be fair: The path I took was a two edged sword....and has NOT been without its difficutlies and challeneges. In many ways it was the more difficult of my path options....but it has givne me a peace that only this path could have given. There are great challenges dealing with family and friends...who often remain believers...as my family and most of my friends have done...so keep in mind that the path I chose...while being right for me may not be right for others.

I have great respect for those who go through the faith crisis gaunlet and are able to maintain their faith...but I also have great appreciateion for those whose faith journey takes them down a different path. For me its about finding peace...which will lead you to your truth

[DBMormon]

thank you Cwald..... it's ok... if we cover our eyes and speak meanly about those who are different... it will all go away. now onto the faithful who say shhhhhhhh.

Elder Marlin Jensen says the following

We need to do the same for those people who are feeling disaffected – for whatever reason… doctrinally, or socially. I mean, if we really are truly Christian, it has to start there. Being less judgmental. Being more open and welcoming and inclusive. Someone asked Robert Frost once, 'What's the ugliest word in the English language?' And he said, 'Exclusive.' I think it is, too, in a way. So, if that environment can be created, and it should be, but often in the church, when someone comes with a bit of a prickly question, he'll be met with a bishop who number one, doesn't know the answer. Number two, he snaps and says, 'Get in line and don't question the prophet, and get back and do your home teaching.' And that isn't helpful in most cases. So, we need to educate our leaders better, I think, to be sympathetic and empathetic and to draw out of these people where they are coming from and what's brought them to the point they are at. What they have read, what they are thinking is, and try to understand them. Sometimes that alone is enough to help someone through a hard time. But beyond that, I think we really need to figure out a way to live a little bit with people who may never get completely settled."

"It's a different generation. Everything's out there for them to consume if they want to Google it. There's no sense kidding ourselves. We need to be very upfront with them, tell them what we know, and give answers to what we have, and let them fall on their faith for things that we don't completely understand."

- sounds like the church says it needs to be better, that some of the fault lays at their own feet and they know it

And with good reason, because we are suffering a loss; both in terms of our new converts that come in that don't get really established in the church, as well as very faithful members who because of things we're talking about, as well as others, are losing their faith in the process. It is one of our biggest concerns right now."

- sounds like it isn't just those not in far enough

but often in the church, when someone comes with a bit of a prickly question, he'll be met with a bishop who number one, doesn't know the answer. Number two, he snaps and says, 'Get in line and don't question the prophet, and get back and do your home teaching.' And that isn't helpful in most cases

So, we need to educate our leaders better, I think, to be sympathetic and empathetic and to draw out of these people where they are coming from and what's brought them to the point they are at. What they have read, what they are thinking is, and try to understand them. Sometimes that alone is enough to help someone through a hard time. But beyond that, I think we really need to figure out a way to live a little bit with people who may never get completely settled."

did you see the part there about how most members are not handling this dilemma the right way... go ahead brush away his words. You are obviously in the right... or wait maybe, just perhaps like the leaders mentioned your comments are not helpful in the least

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[Darren10]

I didn't present the thread as personal and even if one does it does not give others a pass to attack someone personally. If you think that is ok you likely have much bigger issues then me. Personally degrading others and questioning their faith is unacceptable... in fact it is a rule on this board. Are you bigger then the rules?

I have never said I have no fault in my personal circumstances. I agree in the opening thread that it is a particualr way some of us assimilate information that leads to this. Faulty expectations, ect... but if your implying faith crisis is due to sin or some other rebellious trait... you would be wrong and overstepping your ability to state such. Faith Crisis is due to feelings of loss of trust or betrayal where the expectations one had of their faith were not met. We can debate whether those expectations were realistic or not but we can not say it is becasue they weren't in the church far enough, or they sinned, or if they speak about their issues they are posioning the well. sorry but that is antithesis of the right response

Because you and others are faithful doesn't give you the right to be harsh and demeaning to others who are not in your click.

LOL. First off, your open thread is entirely about questioning a person's faith. Second, nobody said you deny you have weeknesses, only that you never ackolwedged them in regards of your faith crisis.

but if your implying faith crisis is due to sin or some other rebellious trait...

I do not find any posts here infering that.

Faith Crisis is due to feelings of loss of trust or betrayal where the expectations one had of their faith were not met.

OK. Then where have *YOU* felt betrayed which lead to your faith crisis. I already know about the polyandry scriptures in D&C so no need to repeat those here. But since your psot is about *you* and not others then it would go a long way to clarify what you're getting at if you would share things about *your* faith crisis.

[Craig Paxton]

Out of curiosity. What are two discoveries you made that you would never have had had you remained a "believing member of the church"?

What's that scripture about casting pearls before.... Darren, to what purpose? So that you might belittle and scoff at my choices? That's not what this thread is about...Why not start a thread on that subject and purhaps I'll share my .02 cents

If I am mistaken in misjudging the motivations of your intentions...I apologize in advance...

Edited June 11, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[DBMormon]

OK. Then where have *YOU* felt betrayed which lead to your faith crisis. I already know about the polyandry scriptures in D&C so no need to repeat those here. But since your psot is about *you* and not others then it would go a long way to clarify what you're getting at if you would share things about *your* faith crisis.

this post is about others and their advice and journey in helping those in crisis move forward. Sorry but if you want to ask the question in a different way not making me the subject of the OP then I would be happy to answer. The post isn't about me. It is about lots of folks who like me have experienced a crisis of faith. If you want to ask a question ask, but don't mock me

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[Senator]

Go to church and participate. I think you'll be surprised as to how welcome you'll be made to feel.

However, I would advise that you are careful to keep whatever unfaithful or unbelieving thoughts you may have close to home. I wouldn't guarantee how welcomed you may be otherwise.

[Darren10]

reelmormon;

I just binged "Elder Marlin Jensen: Someone asked Robert Frost once, 'What's the ugliest word in the English language?' And he said, 'Exclusive'" and I have not received any hits for LDS Church sites. What was the setting of Elder Jensens' remarks?

[DBMormon]

http://mormon-chroni...culties-of.html

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53408134-78/church-lds-mormon-faith.html.csp

Dr. Phillip Barlow (Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University) invited Elder Marlin K. Jensen (Church Historian and Recorder) to speak at USU. Excerpts of the Q&A session specifically having to do with the difficulties Mormons face when learning about church history are included below.

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon

[Darren10]

What's that scripture about casting pearls before.... Darren, to what purpose? So that you might belittle and scoff at my choices? That's not what this thread is about...Why not start a thread on that subject and purhaps I'll share my .02 cents

If I am mistaken in misjudging the motivations of your intentions...I apologize in advance...

No, sir. Not to scorn and scoff. You made the statement about how your life has been enriched after leaving the Church and honestly, if that is what you honestly think and feel then I say God speed to you and fully desire to experience peace in your path. May it bring you closer to Christ. I ask question like this to get a handle on a) the authenticity of the statement and b) to better understand where they are coming from. I shared my experience about the Book of Abraham and I do not mind at all sharing personal experiences and personal insights when a topic is apprpriate. In the end, it's your choice to share your personal insights or not. If you do not want to, then so be it.

[DBMormon]

let me guess, since it isn't on LDS.ORG it doesn't apply to you?

[Darren10]

this post is about others and their advice and journey in helping those in crisis move forward. Sorry but if you want to ask the question in a different way not making me the subject of the OP then I would be happy to answer. The post isn't about me. It is about lots of folks who like me have experienced a crisis of faith. If you want to ask a question ask, but don't mock me

sir, there is nothing to indicate that this post is about anyone but you. You frame it to be about others but it's way too obvious that it is primarily about you and I do think part of you wants to take what you have experienced and help others through similar ruts in their faith. That's admirable but my main point is that you have not made any attempt whatsoever to include yourself in this post, and now you're outright refusing to do so. assuming this post is primarily about yourself than if you cannot / will not apply the content of your post to yourself, you'll perhaps never receive satisfactory answers. The only compliments you've paid out are to those who have left the Church yet you claim you're not posting about the truthfulness of the Church. If so and the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true Church of Jesus Christ than why in the world would you desire anything but helping those in a faith crisis to remain in the Church? Yet, it seems, that those who post about finding truth by leaving it, you compliment them.

/Strange

[Darren10]

let me guess, since it isn't on LDS.ORG it doesn't apply to you?

Wrong guess. But try again.