Church History And Faith Crisis Part 3

[Brian 2.0]

A nice PM from a fellow board member got me thinking on something I would like to add to my response:

Even though I am pretty much through to "the other side" as you say and I consider myself a non-believer. There still is a separate question of the "goodness" or "usefullness" of the church and the institution surrounding it in my life.

Now, I wrestle with how my recent changes in belief should changes my behaviors. The concept of "It may not be true, but the consequences are good" is a valid point. Is there a point where truth is somewhat irrelevant is if serves a good purpose in your life? You may not believe there is a God, but attending church and participating may have a net benefit to your life... does that mean you should attend?

[Grundelwalken]

Psst.... if I had thin skin I would left this board about 3 hours after registerng. By the way is it too much to expect my fellow brothers and sisters in the gospel to be kind and not to personally attack their brother in Christ? In my mind before coming here, I thought I need to find a LDS discussion board where I can present my struggles and my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ will wrapthier arms around me and kindly help me to understand where I went off track and how to get back on the straight and narrow. While there are some very genuine people here and I could name about a dozen.... the bad apples far outnumber the meek and lowly. Perhaps there are other "nice guys" who simply are shy and don't speak up but it certainly is a different dynamic then I had expected.... Now I realize that having encountered this hostility I at times throw sarcasm back at the discussion but that is how I deal and will continue to when things get personal, which again should never happen here.

RM, I'm a 'sometime' poster but a pretty frequent reader of this site. Some of the difficulty you have with some posters may be a result of the way you phrase or present your questions and arguments. It is a little unnerving to have someone who is serving in a position of authority (bishop) who seems to have major issues with the direction, doctrine, leaders, etc of the church. I know that some of your comments make me cringe when I think of someone walking to bishop's office, seeking help with a failing testimony, and then listening to.... I don't know what. I'm sure you handle these things well -- I am not accusing you of apostasy or anything -- but your tone and tenor seem to present a danger signal to some.

Having doubts is not a sin in the Lord's Church but sharing those doubts in the incorrect forum is a major violation of the commandments. AGAIN, I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU OF DOING THIS. But some of your words seem to carry this message.

I try to be one of the 'nice guys' when I post but even I get a little worried with what some of the posters propagate. Maybe because I have never had a real crisis of faith, I am 'ignorant' to the feelings and worries in that regard. My concern is for those who are weak in the faith and what they might discover from faithful members who post on these forums.

I can't speak for anyone else but I hope you find the answers to the questions you struggle with before you do yourself permanent harm. Most people here are probably loving, considerate and kind but the Internet has a way of making us all a little less forgiving than we might be in person (me included). Don't know if this helps but that's my $.02. MW

Edited June 11, 2012 by Grundelwalken

[Grundelwalken]

Now, I wrestle with how my recent changes in belief should changes my behaviors. The concept of "It may not be true, but the consequences are good" is a valid point. Is there a point where truth is somewhat irrelevant is if serves a good purpose in your life? You may not believe there is a God, but attending church and participating may have a net benefit to your life... does that mean you should attend?

Well, the Savior taught that "fruits" are the means for judgment of truth and evil. If you are happier, life is richer, or friendships are sweeter, why would you want to change what you do or believe. Maybe you just don't understand what you know!. MW

[why me]

As one who is going through this... do you not recommend reading anything that is not from a believer? I personally don't like angry exit stories and I'm in no way looking to tear down the church, so I stay away from that stuff. But I don't feel like I'm doing something wrong by listening or reading a "critic" and their arguments.

And you are not doing anything wrong at all by looking at those sites. But you are also here. For many who have left the church, they have allowed critics and their interpretation of lds history and the lds past to interfere with their testimony. Many have forgotten the simple book of mormon story. who wrote it; the testimony of the witnesses; and they have forgotten the basics of a lds life: to attempt to live the commandments, focus on family whether extended or immediate family and live a loving life.

The critics can be very persuasive with their interpretations and they seem to drone it in to the new doubting member.

[Brian 2.0]

Well, the Savior taught that "fruits" are the means for judgment of truth and evil. If you are happier, life is richer, or friendships are sweeter, why would you want to change what you do or believe. Maybe you just don't understand what you know!. MW

Sadly, happiness and and goodness and usefulness don't equal with empirical truth.

My son gets immense joy out of believing in Santa Clause. His joy, those fruits, are not good evidence that if he went to the North Pole he would find the man Santa there.

I may get immense joy and usefullness out of applying the principles taught in the BoM in my life, but those fruits are poor evidence that Nephi actually existed as a man on this earth.

You can use some "fruits" to help you understand "truth" is a sense of "what's true for you" and such, but some "fruits" won't help in determining empirical truth that corresponds to something in the real world.

[why me]

Why me,

Just to clarify so you don't think my post to you if from a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I agree with your 9 of out 10 lose their faith from the internet. I guess I'm asking where someone does go to listen the arguments from both sides? Obviously it doesn't have to be both sides at one location. I like MormonThink and thought it had a good reputation, but I know some condemn it. But what site or type of critic is acceptable?

I think that the problem comes when a member does not understand that what they are reading is an interpretation of an event or of a history. Also, the critics know what they are doing and what they are attempting to do: to cast doubt in a believers mind. Also, if you look at critic interpretations, much is depended on hypothetical illustrations that sound like facts. It becomes a shock and awe experience for the member and once the member has been shocked and awed, critics can then come in for the kill by presenting their own world and how nice it is to be out of the fold.

[why me]

Even though I am pretty much through to "the other side" as you say and I consider myself a non-believer. There still is a separate question of the "goodness" or "usefullness" of the church and the institution surrounding it in my life.

And this is the point that I mentioned to you: forgetting the basics. It is really simple: the church presents a way of life. Does this life bear good fruit or bad fruit? Good fruit comes from god. Bad fruit comes from satan. I see the church bearing good fruit in days where much bad fruit can be had. And I also know that the word of wisdom has saved many people from alcohol addiction, drug addiction, porn addiction etc. We just do not know who we would be without the word of wisdom in our lives.

Modesty is also good fruit. The teachings on family is also good fruit.

And I see Joseph Smith as someone who had a job to do and he did it to the best of his ability. Likewise for the witnesses who left the church. They knew that they had a spiritual experience and could not deny it.

[Brian 2.0]

And this is the point that I mentioned to you: forgetting the basics. It is really simple: the church presents a way of life. Does this life bear good fruit or bad fruit? Good fruit comes from god. Bad fruit comes from satan. I see the church bearing good fruit in days where much bad fruit can be had. And I also know that the word of wisdom has saved many people from alcohol addiction, drug addiction, porn addiction etc. We just do not know who we would be without the word of wisdom in our lives.

Modesty is also good fruit. The teachings on family is also good fruit.

And I see Joseph Smith as someone who had a job to do and he did it to the best of his ability. Likewise for the witnesses who left the church. They knew that they had a spiritual experience and could not deny it.

I can and do use these methods to determine what to change in term of behavior (I still attend quite regularly and participate). A lot of the church can be experienced using this method. Sadly, there are some belief questions on the Temple Recommend that are fairly specific, so I am excluded from that form of worship if I answer completely honestly.

[DBMormon]

Sadly, happiness and and goodness and usefulness don't equal with empirical truth.

My son gets immense joy out of believing in Santa Clause. His joy, those fruits, are not good evidence that if he went to the North Pole he would find the man Santa there.

I may get immense joy and usefullness out of applying the principles taught in the BoM in my life, but those fruits are poor evidence that Nephi actually existed as a man on this earth.

Good point. I think the Lord's church will bear good fruits but many other organizations will bear good fruit as well. Bad fruit certainly indicates non-truth, but good fruit is not the smoking gun.

You can use some "fruits" to help you understand "truth" is a sense of "what's true for you" and such, but some "fruits" won't help in determining empirical truth that corresponds to something in the real world.

[Grundelwalken]

Sadly, happiness and and goodness and usefulness don't equal with empirical truth.

My son gets immense joy out of believing in Santa Clause. His joy, those fruits, are not good evidence that if he went to the North Pole he would find the man Santa there.

I may get immense joy and usefullness out of applying the principles taught in the BoM in my life, but those fruits are poor evidence that Nephi actually existed as a man on this earth.

You can use some "fruits" to help you understand "truth" is a sense of "what's true for you" and such, but some "fruits" won't help in determining empirical truth that corresponds to something in the real world.

Well, I guess I was focusing more on your desire to have peace than to accept truth. Something that brings joy SHOULD be true -- but maybe not to everyone. MW

[bcuzbcuz]

....... how to repair the damage........

2.) For those who lost faith and didn't recover, what would have helped, what would have benefeited you to regain faith?

7.) For those who lost faith, Are you happier now then you were when you were in Phase #1?, #2?, #3? What is your center revolved around now?

"Ignorance is bliss" is an old saying but definitely true. For all the years I was active and faithful it was much easier being blissfully unaware of bothersome questions. Life was simpler. When an active Mormon had trouble with a teenage child who might sneak a cigarette or a drink of beer, the answer was clearcut and straightforward; no, don't do it, God says it's wrong.

Years later, when I was no longer active, my response to my teenagers was still the same no, you shouldn't smoke, but it had to be framed in, "it's not good for your health" or "I don't like it." To which they could respond, "but you drive too fast and that's dangerous to your health and those on the highway as well."

"You eat too much meat and you're fat (ouch, that hurt), so don't talk to us about unhealthy."

See, no way near as simple and clearcut.

A faithful member goes through the temple to have partner and children sealed for all time and eternity in the assured knowledge that in the afterlife the family will be as one. As a non-believer there is no such assurance. When my wife and son died I had and have nothing but grieving and loss. There will be no reunion, no restitution, no afterlife.

It was simpler and more comforting as a believer.

Someone here mentioned that the disenchanted search for like minded on the internet. Possibly. But I don't see it that way. I kept my feelings to myself and only shared them with my wife, who, fortunately, felt similarly. We both moved away from the church, together. My mother, a fully active and faithful temple worker, wanted to hear none of my opinions and I honored that until she died and only now voice my discontent.

You ask where or what a disbeliever centers their life around? I can't answer for anyone else, except myself. As always, the center of my life, my very existence, is my family. My children, my grandchildren, my foster children are my center, even more so than before. I count only the time I have with them in the now and the present. There is nothing more. But for me, that is enough.

Edited June 11, 2012 by bcuzbcuz

[Brian 2.0]

Someone here mentioned that the disenchanted search for like minded on the internet.

And this is only a "problem" if you belief that non-belief is a bad thing.

Someone investigating the church could easily be told the same argument by their pastor or friend. "Say away from those Mormon's. You'll start having feelings and eventually join."

It's only a problem to search for likeminded people if that community is helping you do something "harmful." And the crux here is that some of us have differings of opinion if belief or dis-belief is harmful.

No one would persuade me against seeking out likeminded people on the internet that really like hybrid cars. Unless you are a person that thinks hybrid cars are bad.

[bcuzbcuz]

Those who fall out of the Church, it is usually because they are not in far enough.

And you would know this because.......????

That has about as much value as saying, "the wife who has an unfaithful husband is because she didn't love him enough." I heard a man give that as an excuse as to why he left his wife. Yeah, sure.

[bcuzbcuz]

And this is only a "problem" if you belief that non-belief is a bad thing.

Someone investigating the church could easily be told the same argument by their pastor or friend. "Say away from those Mormon's. You'll start having feelings and eventually join."

It's only a problem to search for likeminded people if that community is helping you do something "harmful." And the crux here is that some of us have differings of opinion if belief or dis-belief is harmful.

No one would persuade me against seeking out likeminded people on the internet that really like hybrid cars. Unless you are a person that thinks hybrid cars are bad.

Point taken.

[why me]

I can and do use these methods to determine what to change in term of behavior (I still attend quite regularly and participate). A lot of the church can be experienced using this method. Sadly, there are some belief questions on the Temple Recommend that are fairly specific, so I am excluded from that form of worship if I answer completely honestly.

I think that it is great that you are here on this forum. Many non believers choose the exforums to post their new found beliefs. On the exforums, I hardly ever see anything positive about the lds church. In fact, positive posters are usually banned or they experience a gang up.by the nonbelievers.

[Darren10]

Why do you always seem to want to make things personal and accusatory, you may need to evaluate that. I think there are some things in the gospel about that as well.

Isn't that the basis of your post? Aren't you essentially speaking about your own faith crisis when you ask about how we are to help others who are going through some sort of faith crisis? There was nothing wrong with zerinus' #4 post. It may be a bit blunt for your taste but the content of his post is solid.

[Darren10]

You know what people who have a faith crisis don't need? The sorry your faith isn't as strong as mine self righteous attitude that way too many of the posters here have. Arrogance is not the gospel. Self Righteousness is not a positive trait. Always belittling someone who you think has less faith then you is not a Christlike attrribute. We are called to love, the empathize, to support, to go after the one and leave the 99. All too often I am confronted with the fact that way too many people mocking from the great and spacious building are temple recommend carrying members of the church.

Personally I would much rather lack Faith then Humility and kindness

You're correct in how we are to help others but what you leave out is that your posts cosistantly put blame of a personal faith crisis on the LDS Church, not the individual. You yourself cited:

I seemed to have picked up on the notion that I should "obey every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" somehow whether intentional or not, felt like I was supposed to accept all a leader said as truth coming directly from God to his Prophets and apostles

There, it seems clear, that the problem you point to is the Church, or rather, what you were taught in the Church, not you. And if you truly would rather "lack faith than humility and kindness" then what's the problem? Afterall, if zerinus is the "ral problem", so to speak, than why are you concerned about the "lesser problem" of "lacking faith"? You seem to be working against your own post.

[Darren10]

I have an uncle that whenever you get into a political discussion with him, just as you start to get the edge showing facts and sharing ideas, he comes in and makes a personal joke about you and make the conversation personal.... right then is the very moment when everyone else in the room can see he has lost control of the debate.

Likewise, I've known people who were *always* complaining about their own lives. "I hate this," "I hate that," "hey, you wanna know what happened to me yesterday? It was horrible...", "I had a horrible time yesterday...", "can you believe what he said to me yesterday...", etc. I choose not to hang around these people. I do not want o associate with them. I have no problem whatsoever to help people, even counsel with them but there comes a point when certain people are so focused on their wn woes that it becaomes not only a turn off nut a turn off to the point when the only helthy manner ot "help them" is to no longer pay attention to them. In terms of faith and "faith crisis", this seems very much to be you, reelmormon. The few posts I've read from you since I joined this site makes it very clear that you *never* acknowledge your own personal weakness, shortcomings, the *possibility* that you may have a lack of understanding, or anything which may place the problem upon, you, but you place the blame of your "faith crisis" upon others: Church teachings, Church scripture, Church doctrines obscured for thje benefit of the naive, etc. In other word,s you seem to lack humility, not others. All your problems' culpability seem to be external, not your own. This is a turn off and makes others not want to listen to you. This reaction may be the best response you can get. Why not sit back and look at your self and express what, you may be coming up short in, why, you may be coming up short, how you may be coming up short, etc., and I think you'll come acorss "humbler and kinder" responses in your estimation.

[Darren10]

I think the OP questions are very pertinent. Being new here, I don't really want to say much...I'm not ready to get raked over the coals.

Just speak your mind. If you deem necessary, defend your comments when challenged. Or don't if you do not want to. Don't lt challenges tyo your thought hinder your expression of your thoughts. It's all up to you. Do what you think is best.

[Brian 2.0]

I am again reminded of that anecdote reported by Alder Marvin J Ashton, which I related in another thread. Those who fall out of the Church, it is usually because they are not in far enough.

I know you didn't say, but you repeated it, so these may not be your thoughts... but this quote is highly offensive and untrue for a LOT of people. I was as "in" as they come. I would love to know if you actually believe this yourself and why you do.

[Darren10]

I don't exactly fit the mold of your post, but I hope you don't mind if I contribute.

Nothing would have helped other than direct evidence. I accepted no man's word for anything. I had an interview with my stake president, at his request, probably when I should have been ordained a priest. I told him there was no God, that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that he had no proof. That was a short interview. Needless to say, I was not ordained a priest.

LOL, I imagine it was a short interview. My brother went atheist and I spoke with him kindly and patiently. He wa at least open to hear the gospel. He's still quite inactive but a very good man, father, husband, and in many ways a better person than I.

Ignore the Church and the history thereof, and disregard whatever disagreements one has with the leaders: shelve them all, or, at least sufficiently that you might be able to perform this next action: pray with all your might, mind, and strength to gain a witness from God about whatever it is your issue is, and DO NOT CEASE until you receive.

That is some good advice.

[Brian 2.0]

I think that it is great that you are here on this forum. Many non believers choose the exforums to post their new found beliefs. On the exforums, I hardly ever see anything positive about the lds church. In fact, positive posters are usually banned or they experience a gang up.by the nonbelievers.

That is exactly why I don't frequent those forums. It is hard to have a discussion here sometimes, but that's kind of the point. I want my thoughts and belief (new and old) to be challenged. I welcome it. That's how you find more the deeper truth. I may not believe something, but question if I'm off base or not, so I come here to post and discuss to see if there's something I haven't thought about.

If I just frequented them, I just hear only what I want to hear... which is not healthy in my mind.

[Calm]

And you would know this because.......????

That has about as much value as saying, "the wife who has an unfaithful husband is because she didn't love him enough." I heard a man give that as an excuse as to why he left his wife. Yeah, sure.

No, it has as much value as saying "the wife who has an unfaithful husband is because he didn't love her enough."

"Far enough" into the Church is an indication of one's commitment to the Church and not the Church's commitment to the individual.

Whether or not the claim is correct, if one is going to argue effectively against it, one should portray it properly.

[Darren10]

As one who is going through this... do you not recommend reading anything that is not from a believer? I personally don't like angry exit stories and I'm in no way looking to tear down the church, so I stay away from that stuff. But I don't feel like I'm doing something wrong by listening or reading a "critic" and their arguments.

Just because someone has an agenda doesn't mean you should throw out their arguments.

You've got to look at the arguments. That's a very tough thing to do and you gotta dig deep and check sources and do you due diligence, but if I have a problem with the Book of Abraham and I'm trying to find answers, I don't think it's good due diligence to just read LDS Egyptologists writings. I don't discredit LDS Egyptologists, I just have to weight their evidence against the evidence of others as well.

As far as the Book of Abraham goes, why do I know it's true? Because God told me so. I also think it gives great insights inbto the creation and God's and man's eternal nature. That said, I paid little attention to the Book of Abraham, and the Perl of Great Price in general. It was about a couple of years ago I first came across challenges ofthe BOA from what i'd describe as a rabid anti-Mormon who used Nazi-style propaganda to present the LDS faith. And, believe me, I do not throw out the "nazi card": lightly as its overuse in debates both bores and concerns me. At that point I honestly didn't know how to answer his accusations but I never doubted the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham. By knowledge of tis truthfulness is godly for that is the source of my knowing what is true or not. You express concern to distinguish between God's voice and from thoughts from your own mind but I think this distinction overtime is easier to make as you proceed faithfully in inquiring of God answers to your concerns and curiosities. You'll also see how this can be one and the same.

As for the BOA's counter arguments and defense, I found great insights from Jeff lindsay who lead me tothe Book of Abraham Project". That's a great project with great insights. The following are the bweblinks to their home sight and to a link within their website which adresses many of the criticisms of the Book of Abraham. The third link will be to a fabulous article which argues that the papri Joseph Smith had t otranslated the Book of Abraham could have been a copy of a semitic story teller who used Egyptian hieroglyphs to tell that story. So, to an Egyptologist, it would look as an Egyptian story, however, to a semitic reader, it would clearly tell a semitic story. The article gives historical precedent in favor of this argument.

Book of Abraham Project

[DBMormon]

RM, I'm a 'sometime' poster but a pretty frequent reader of this site. Some of the difficulty you have with some posters may be a result of the way you phrase or present your questions and arguments. It is a little unnerving to have someone who is serving in a position of authority (bishop) who seems to have major issues with the direction, doctrine, leaders, etc of the church. I know that some of your comments make me cringe when I think of someone walking to bishop's office, seeking help with a failing testimony, and then listening to.... I don't know what. I'm sure you handle these things well -- I am not accusing you of apostasy or anything -- but your tone and tenor seem to present a danger signal to some.

Grundelwalken - I agree with you

First and I ahve said this before - I have a testimony and I conduct my self in my life as such. But I am also personally aware of how it feels to have a faith crisis and how one struggles through that. I see most LDS as inept at helping someone through that crisis and unable to give the support or words that are needed. I do see things differently then you because of this. I try to push the envelope a little because this is real to so many and the way many of this board and many with the larger group of church members are not saying the right things to help. they either demean, tell the person they lack faith, tell them they are sinning, or that they are posioning the well when they challenge the status quo. This is an internet board. This is a place to push the envelope and strike good discussions. This is the place to test viewpoints against evidence, this is the place to share new ideas and bounce things off others. If you met me in real life you likely walk away with a different appraisel.

I will not make it personal unless one is demeaning to me. You can expect kindness towards you. But I will push issues if it represents the way I saw things at one time so that some here might better understand faith crisis and the emotional battle it is, while also letting others in the same crisis can see they are not alone and can know they have advocates here and not just people who push them further away.

By the way I truly appreciated your insight, it helps to get feedback on the image I am portraying

Hope that helps

Edited June 11, 2012 by reelmormon