Church History And Faith Crisis Part 3

[ERayR]

That is dangerous talk. It's the same kind of teachings that get used in many organizations. I'm sure it's the same kind of teaching that Warren Jeffs uses to get people to follow him...the whole the prophet will never lead you astray and when the prophet speaks the discussion is over....that is scary stuff to me.

Sure, you folks have faith in Monson, but Jeffs' followers also have faith that he the true prophet.

The church is pretty benign today, for the most part...but it hasn't always been and it might not always be. Perhaps the church should tell the folks to judge for themselves and listen the spirit, rather than just accepting the prophets words for it.

If anyone in the church is wrong and/or if the organization is wrong, we should not follow and listen to that advice. And no, I disagree...the CHURCH IS NOT PERFECT. That is silliness.

And in what do you put your faith in? My faith is in my experiences received from personal revelation. You may consider biblical admonition to be dangerous but I like to weigh it in my decision making. I know its kinda stupid to pay attention to the Bible that way but I do it anyway.

[cwald]

And in what do you put your faith in? My faith is in my experiences received from personal revelation. You may consider biblical admonition to be dangerous but I like to weigh it in my decision making. I know its kinda stupid to pay attention to the Bible that way but I do it anyway.

I base my faith in my personal revelation as well. I use the spirit, my intuition, logic and reasoning to find answers and truth.

I do not put my faith in men...and that would include LDS men. Men are prone to make mistakes and use emotion when making claims and decisions.

I know many folks say that they use all these things too, and they always line up with the mormon prophet. I believe them. Great. But that doesn't mean it is going to work for me...the spirit, my intuition, logic and reason often do not line up with what I hear at church or in the manuals.

I blame god for that...he shouldn't have made me this way.

I guess that is why we have these kind of discussion boards and threads...to discuss faith crisis and that dirty term known as cognitive dissonance

[DBMormon]

The more I think of this Dichotomy, the more I struggle to make sense of it. That is that two people who both love God and value truth can come to opposite conclusions. You can even have two people who believe the Bom is the word of God and that this is his church and yet see much of it's events through two completely different lenses, and neither side really can grasp how the other sees things the way they do.

[ERayR]

The more I think of this Dichotomy, the more I struggle to make sense of it. That is that two people who both love God and value truth can come to opposite conclusions. You can even have two people who believe the Bom is the word of God and that this is his church and yet see much of it's events through two completely different lenses, and neither side really can grasp how the other sees things the way they do.

It comes from different life experiences and free will.

[volgadon]

I do not put my faith in men...and that would include LDS men. Men are prone to make mistakes and use emotion when making claims and decisions.

I would love an autograph, Mr. Spock.

[selek1]

I would love an autograph, Mr. Spock.

"Love" is an emotion, Mister Scott.

[volgadon]

"Love" is an emotion, Mister Scott.

Well, I am a man, LDS to boot, so I must offend twice.

[bcuzbcuz]

The church is its people. Now the organization can be perfect but the people are not. That is more accurate.

Could that not be said about any church, any organization, any government?

like "We have the perfect **********, it's just you who is messing everything up."

[why me]

Could that not be said about any church, any organization, any government?

like "We have the perfect **********, it's just you who is messing everything up."

I think that there are two christian churches that claim to have the truth: the lds and catholic. I know of no other church that claims absolute truth. So, it would be difficult to make that statement unless a truth claim was made by that church.

[volgadon]

I think that there are two christian churches that claim to have the truth: the lds and catholic. I know of no other church that claims absolute truth. So, it would be difficult to make that statement unless a truth claim was made by that church.

Sigh. Why do we always leave out the Eastern and Orinetal Orthodox Churches? Especially ironic, as the sentiment seems to have first been voiced by a Uniate.

[Aliwe]

I think that there are two christian churches that claim to have the truth: the lds and catholic. I know of no other church that claims absolute truth. So, it would be difficult to make that statement unless a truth claim was made by that church.

One might think every religious movement claims to have the fullness of truth, otherwise it would be like a proprietor recommending to his customers to try his own competitor.

[Damien the Leper]

One might think every religious movement claims to have the fullness of truth, otherwise it would be like a proprietor recommending to his customers to try his own competitor.

And what truth do you claim? Hopefully not the nasty business that is John Calvin's flavor of Reformed theology.

[volgadon]

And what truth do you claim? Hopefully not the nasty business that is John Calvin's flavor of Reformed theology.

Seventh Day Adventist, I suspect.

[selek1]

Perhaps the church should tell the folks to judge for themselves and listen the spirit, rather than just accepting the prophets words for it.

If you knew anything about the Mormons other than what you read in hate sites, you would know that this is precisely what the Church does.

The Church is ruled by common consent: meaning that while our leaders can teach, exhort, proclaim, and prophesy, it is the Saints themselves who must choose whether to follow.

We are counseled to study, ponder, pray, and (ultimately) judge for ourselves.

We are taught consistently that we must not simply be led, but must know where we are going.

We are taught consistently that it is not sufficient that we be told, but that we must also understand.

The Scripures tell us that he who must be led in all things is a foolish and unprofitable servant (to God).

The Scripures also tell us that we are to develop our talents, our reasoning, and our understanding.

There is no room in the Celestial Kingdom for the foolish, the weak, and the unquestioning follower.

The idea that the Saints are taught or commanded to doormats or rubber stamps to the leadership is both absurd on its face and anathema to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The fundamental principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is agency- the idea that each of us, when faced with the choice, must choose righteousness.

It cannot be thrust upon us, nor can we gain it by blind obedience.

Edited June 22, 2012 by selek1

[Aliwe]

Note that even though Saul was chasing David with the intent to kill him that when David sneaked into Saul's camp and cut off the hem of Saul's robe God told David to touch not mine anointed. Until God actually hands over the authority to change policy it is not wise to usurp that authority.

That incident was in 1 Samuel 24, but in 1 Samuel 16, David was anointed by Samuel king, for Samuel had a message from the LORD that Saul was impeached for failing to follow his orders to wipe out all the Amalekites. So that was when God actually handed over the authority. But David was slow to put that into action.

[cwald]

If you knew anything about the Mormons other than what you read in hate sites, you would know that this is precisely what the Church does....

No, that has not been my experience.

I think you're being very disingenuous, and I don't appreciate the personal dig about reading "hate sites." I got my information from attending church for 40 years and listening to conference....an easy example would be Costa's 14 Fundamentals of the Prophet spill from Oct 2010, and all the rhetoric I read here about how I'm supposedly a wolf in sheep clothing because I don't necessarily agree with everything the church leaders, the Lord's anointed, have to say on some subjects.

So no....that is not my experience.

[John Ping Pong]

It's not easy being green.

[selek1]

No, that has not been my experience.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Your subjective experience does not jive with the facts- whom then should I believe?

The facts or someone with an axe to grind?

I think you're being very disingenuous, and I don't appreciate the personal dig about reading "hate sites."

Neither do I appreciate the accusation of dishonesty or the unfounded slander against the Church.

Such is life.

I got my information from attending church for 40 years and listening to conference....

They say that you get out of Church what you put into it.

Clearly, your experience is proof of the axiom.

In point of fact, however, you have not presented a single factual or doctrinal support for your claim.

You are spraying accusations like a runaway firehose- but facts are thin on the ground in your wake.

all the rhetoric I read here about how I'm supposedly a wolf in sheep clothing because I don't necessarily agree with everything the church leaders, the Lord's anointed, have to say on some subjects.

Incorrect.

We do not think you're a wolf-in-sheep's clothing because you disagree.

We think you're a wolf because you prey upon the ignorance of the gullible and spread falsehoods designed to undermine and divide the faithful.

So no....that is not my experience.

As stated, your "experience" is contradicted by the facts.

So, no sale.

[John Ping Pong]

They say that you get out of Church what you put into it.

Clearly, your experience is proof of the axiom.

Can somebody have a different point of view without being excoriated?

We do not think you're a wolf-in-sheep's clothing because you disagree.

We think you're a wolf because you prey upon the ignorance of the gullible and spread falsehoods designed to undermine and divide the faithful.

Who is this "we" who share your judgmental attitude?

[DBMormon]

CWALD - my experience has been that church itself has been the best of all we are talking about. It is where i feel most loved and accepted despite my views being a little different. I see the historical narrative as my biggest issue. Yes - from time to time someone speaks offensively, or teach's false doctrine, but for me in my ward that is rare. I know from discussions with many of them that some hold false beliefs due to their uniformed understanding of some of those issues, but that rarely makes it's way into lessons. Sunday is the day when the church feel's most true for me!!!!

I agree that some are treating you with hostility or sarcasm. See past that and try to understand their reasoning. Whereever you go... if God is real.... he is going to leave you short of having enough proof to know and is going to call on you to exercise faith...

[cwald]

Wow.

It's nice that you can determine the "facts" based on "my" experience.

I never used the word facts...just explain my experience based on my perspective. Most of the truths we cling to are only true from a certain perspective.

So prove that my experience is contradicted by the facts. You seem to like facts. So give me facts from my 40 years of church interaction that contradicts what I said.

[cwald]

Thanks DBMormon.

[DBMormon]

Selek -

They say that you get out of Church what you put into it.

true sometimes but all cliches fail to cover every circumstance

In point of fact, however, you have not presented a single factual or doctrinal support for your claim.

what is his claim that your are butting heads with him on?

[DBMormon]

CWALD what is the disagreement on... what is the precipice of this discussion between you two?

[cwald]

I have no idea. i just expressed an opinion. This is what he quoted, but I don't get the motivation by the response.

Perhaps the church should tell the folks to judge for themselves and listen the spirit, rather than just accepting the prophets words for it.