Enthusiasm In Worship

[Hamba Tuhan]

No matter what ward/branch I have attended including my current ward, the singing sounds like you're at a funeral.

You should have been in our priesthood meeting opening exercises this afternoon. Very not like a funeral. The poor pianist couldn't keep up on a few occasions, but we could hardly hear him over the singing anyway.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[zerinus]

I've asked the question before, "Do Mormons overemphasize reverence?" On that same note, I wonder what role enthusiasm should play in our worship services. I think it played a much bigger role in the early years. How is it that our "Hosanna Shout" has become the "Hosanna Mumble?" Why doesn't music play a bigger role in our worship services? Our prayers are largely rote prayers with slight changes in wording and order.

I don't mean this to be a big indictment of LDS worship, and I also recognize that this may only be in the Utah/Idaho area where I live, but as I have attended services at other churches, I do not envy their doctrine, their philosophy, or their approach. I do find myself envying their music and their level of enthusiasm. While this should not replace the spirit, I have truly found myself leaving evangelical services saying to myself, "I'm ready to go out and do something for Jesus." I mean, come on guys, you have to admit that if Elder's quorum gets any less enthusiastic, it might as well be held in the nursery.

What can we do, as a church or as a culture, to inspire more; to have great teaching as our leaders have encouraged us to do, and to send members home saying, "Man, I want to go out and do something for Jesus." Surely enthusiasm can work side by side with the spirit?

I don't think I would want to see in LDS Church the kind of "enthusiastic" singing that one may encounter in a typical charismatic, Pentecostal, or Evangelical church. I would, however, like to see some changes made in our current selection of hymns, they way they are printed, and more "enthusiastic" singing of them as well. The purpose of hymn singing in the Christian tradition has been primarily to praise the Lord; and that I believe is where the main emphasis should be. In the LDS hymn book, however, the highest priority is not given to hymns of praise; but the hymns are looked at from the point of teaching a doctrine of some description. Hymns are regarded primarily as a means of teaching a particular doctrine. That has not been the traditional Christian approach to hymns, and it is an incorrect one. If you look at the table of contents of the current LDS hymn book, you will find that out of a total of 341 hymns, only 35 of them are designated as songs of "Praise and Thanksgiving". The rest are assigned other doctrinal themes. Of course I am sure the number of hymns in the hymn book that contain an element of praise is more numerous than that; but these appear to be the only ones whose main theme is praising the Lord. That figure I think is far too low. I would say the greater part of the hymns in our hymn book should be focused on praising the Lord. Then I think we may be able to see more enthusiastic singing as well.

Another thing that I would like to see is for the Church to publish two versions of the hymn book: one with, and one without the score. The great majority of the Church members (me included) don't read music, and have no desire or intention of wanting to learn it. The score is a distraction from reading, enjoying, appreciating, and singing the hymns properly. The Saints are more likely to appreciate the lyrics, and hence singing them more enthusiastically, if they have them printed in their original poetic stanzas rather than in tiny print stretched underneath the music score. Again, most churches have traditionally printed their hymns in that way (some have the score printed, but separate from the words, which is another good way of doing it; see this example in Amazon; you can "look inside"). The LDS Church seems to be the odd one out. There is nothing wrong with learning something good from other churches too, you know.

[zerinus]

The D&C teaches us the following:

Doctrine and Covenants 46:2

2 But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit.

It really is the place of the bishop to lead and guide the meetings. I would agree with you that we have let the pendulum swing a little too far, for my personal taste, toward uniformity and reverence. I suspect that if bishops took the initiative to follow the spirit in meetings we might find a greater variety of meeting styles and singing. We too often rely more on Salt Lake than the guidance we might receive in our local congregations.

I agree with that. I think that the problem is not so much the lack of "enthusiasm," but lack of spontaneity and guidance of the Spirit. I think that ideally no one should be assigned to prepare a sacrament talk in advance. The bishop should call upon people from the congregation to come up and speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost, without prior warning or preparation. The hymns could also be selected in the course of the meeting by inspiration, without deciding them in advance. And the numbers should be indeterminate. One Sunday they may sing two hymns, and another Sunday six hymns, as the bishop may feel inspired to do. That is the best way of conducting the sacrament meeting in my opinion.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think that the problem is not so much the lack of "enthusiasm," but lack of spontaneity and guidance of the Spirit.

The guidance of the Spirit is not necessarily something which has to occur 'on the spot'. Friday night I got an email from our interim music director suggesting a certain intermediate hymn but with a second suggestion in case I didn't approve of her first choice. I thought about both hymns overnight and during the morning Saturday. I was personally inclined to the second hymn but, after prayer and much pondering, felt to follow the first recommendation of this good sister.

The person who spoke immediately before the hymn in sacrament meeting yesterday concluded her excellent and powerful sermon by reading out a verse from the New Testament and expounding upon it. This verse just happens to be the very one upon which the text of the intermediate hymn was based, so the preaching and the singing blended seamlessly together. The effect was beautiful and, to me, clearly Spirit directed.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[blackstrap]

Calling people out of the congregation to speak is an excellent way to conduct a service.Might I suggest that such be announced before the sacrament so as to avoid the irreverent stampede towards the exits.

[noel00]

When Dietrich Bonhoeffer came to study at Union Seminary in New York in the 1930s he worshiped at a black church in Harlem.where he was impressed with the passionate worship by a peoples whose race was still being at that time lynched. He took LPs of the music back to Germany to share with his students at Finkenwalde seminary. Here in Australia,one of the most famous worship centers in Hillsong, a model adopted by many other churches. I find shows like Songs of Praise include both traditional and contemporary songs. I attended a local Catholic mass here last night, with music provided by guitars. The most passionate song was "Shine Jesus Shine" Being an introvert i find i prefer at times a more sacramental style of service. (being a melancholy).see

[zerinus]

The guidance of the Spirit is not necessarily something which has to occur 'on the spot'. Friday night I got an email from our interim music director suggesting a certain intermediate hymn but with a second suggestion in case I didn't approve of her first choice. I thought about both hymns overnight and during the morning Saturday. I was personally inclined to the second hymn but, after prayer and much pondering, felt to follow the first recommendation of this good sister.

The person who spoke immediately before the hymn in sacrament meeting yesterday concluded her excellent and powerful sermon by reading out a verse from the New Testament and expounding upon it. This verse just happens to be the very one upon which the text of the intermediate hymn was based, so the preaching and the singing blended seamlessly together. The effect was beautiful and, to me, clearly Spirit directed.

I was referring to D&C46:2 which Storm had quoted:

D&C 46:

2 But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit.

This verse from the book of Mormon also teaches the same doctrine:

Moroni 6:

9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.

[bridget_night]

When I think of some of the saddest moments in church worship I think of the Hosannah Shout that Elder Packer led for one of the temple dedications. It felt worse than being slapped with a dead fish. It was the first Hosannah Shout that the Church had done together in literally decades. They called Brother Packer to the stand to lead and us and it was as if he was leading us in a funeral dirge. These are the kind of things that just should never take place in the Church. If someone does not have the energy of a rock, don't call them to lead the Church in such a situation; it does not matter what position they hold.

Alternatively, one can have enthusiasm and joy in singing music and not be outside of the working of the Spirit. Nothing is worse than singing Come, Come Ye Saints, three counts too slow and the elderly members (HPs) are never awakened from their mid-Sacrament meeting nap.

I so agree with you. My husband and I attended the Navoo temple dedication years ago. He was struggling with his testimony at the time. President Hinckley, whom we really liked and respected, spoke at one of the many sessions that were held that day. Our stake president, whom my husband worked with was in the audience and President Hinckley was very disoriented and kept insisting our stake president was the stake president of the Peoria stake. Our stake president stood up and tried to correct President Hinckley several times that he was the Davenport Iowa stake president, but President Hinckley kept arguing with him. Then President Hinckley talked about how his father had tried to rebuild the Nauvoo temple many years ago but was not allowed to and he was happy that he did it. He also talked about the enemies of Joseph Smith, especially one who was buried in Peoria and how he wished he could go to his grave and spit on it. It was truly strange. Then came the most limp Hallueha shout with limp handkerchief waving we had ever seen. I guess we expected some powerful spirit there because of this temple, but it was such a let down. Then when we came out, it seemed like all the money changers in the city were out peddling their souveniors. Such a disappointing experience.

[zerinus]

Double post

Edited May 28, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Calling people out of the congregation to speak is an excellent way to conduct a service. Might I suggest that such be announced before the sacrament so as to avoid the irreverent stampede towards the exits.

No, you may not. Your suggestion is about as useful as glow-in-the-dark sunglasses. You thought I had invented that idea didn't you. You ought to know better. I don't invent stuff like this out of whole cloth. I spoke from experience. I have observed it practised in the Church, and I know it works great.

Edited May 28, 2012 by zerinus

[DH]

First of all, I don't know why people assume rock music when they hear the word "enthusiastic." I, for one, would like to hear more good classical sacred music performed at church. My mother is her ward organist (she always gets that calling! LOL), and she made the "mistake" one Sunday of playing classical music for the prelude. She was told that was "inappropriate," even though it was not particularly rambunctious. But there is plenty of classical sacred music that would qualify as enthusiastic, if Mormons weren't so afraid of appearing irreverent. I use the word "appearing" on purpose, because enthusiasm does not equal irreverence--it's just a different kind of reverence.

Having said that, I have no problem with different styles of non-classical music being performed in worship services. Different people have different taste, and there's nothing inherently wrong with louder, faster-paced music, whether it be southern gospel music or rock music. Some people don't feel they've really had a worship experience without some good gospel music. Personally, I prefer classical, but that's me.

King David was criticized by Michal (2 Sam. 6) for his enthusiasm, leaping and dancing before the Lord. Aaron criticized Ammon for being overenthusastic unto "boasting" (Alma 26). But both David and Ammon were simply rejoicing in their God, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Storm Rider]

Enthusiastic, spiritual meetings have nothing to do with guitars, brass instruments, or drums. It has everything to do with joy. I realize that I have come across as a bit recalcitrant and in many ways I am. I don't like bishops who forget to use inspiration as a bishop. It is grave error to depend upon SLC to guide each step and every mode of worship in a meeting. It is perfectly acceptable for a ward chorister to stop a congregation and to begin anew to sing a hymn joyfully. It is perfectly acceptable and encouraged for a bishop to follow the Spirit in meetings and, when directed, to change "how things are done".

It is not acceptable for a ward to become so comfortable in a process that they do it by rote rather than by conscious participation. It is a failure of leadership when there is a Hosanna shout and it comes across as barely a mumble. I can think of few things that our Father in Heaven disapproves of then a leaders and disciples that are barely conscious when singing a hymn or supposedly shouting a praise to our God. If that is condemning the anointed of the Lord, then I think that is a private conversation that the leadership should take up with God.

[why me]

Hello blooit...

At last, Oct conference arrived, and as I sat there and listened to the calm but deep speaking, the beautiful doctrines, I felt comforted. and a sense of rightness...

GG

I have often read on critic sites that the 'droning' voice at conference sounds like a cult. However, they fail to remember the moments when they were members and the opportunities to hear the still voice that can come from the words to the person listening.

I find joyce meyer to be rather good in getting the crowd going. And i think that she says some nice things. But she is also a trained speaker who knows that her popularity depends on her performance and not just her words.

[why me]

Enthusiastic, spiritual meetings have nothing to do with guitars, brass instruments, or drums. It has everything to do with joy. I realize that I have come across as a bit recalcitrant and in many ways I am. I don't like bishops who forget to use inspiration as a bishop.

I think that the problem is not with the bishop but with life. Today people are busy with other aspects of life. A bishop can own a hardware store, be a farmer, a lawyer, a businessman, a father, a clerk, a plumber etc. They also have to navigate their way through life with all its worries, hardships and concerns. And being a bishop is not easy these days. The joy can fade quickly if one has to survive in today's world.

And then we have members and their talks. No matter how joyful the bishop may be, if the people giving the talks are tired, didn't have enough preparation time, were busy with family problems and concerns etc, it may be difficult to sound joyful.

I think that the mormon problem is simple: people have too much on their plate and this may be reflected in how they give their talks.

[why me]

I agree with that. I think that the problem is not so much the lack of "enthusiasm," but lack of spontaneity and guidance of the Spirit.

People who are concerned for their job, or forced to work more at work, or concerned about paying the bills, or experiencing problems with children, or are just feeling tired from the week etc, may find spontaneity to be a difficult resource to find. Today, a lay church can be a tired church.

[Bernard Gui]

It would be nice if we could sing the hymns correctly - not one speed fits all. No matter what ward/branch I have attended including my current ward, the singing sounds like you're at a funeral.

Come to my ward and you will find the true tempi. (I'm the organist and I refuse to let the tempo drag.)

We have some very good singers in our ward. I have had visitors from other wards tell me they love the pace, but a few have

complained about the speed. The chorister and I are in cahoots...we don't let things bog down, but at the same time we don't rush through the hymns. I do push the tempo on some of the longer ones such as "I Believe in Christ." I sing the hymns to myself as I play and avoid a tempo that makes the words hard to to say.

Bernard

[Hamba Tuhan]

I was referring to D&C46:2 which Storm had quoted:

This verse from the book of Mormon also teaches the same doctrine:

I understand. I was just pointing out that those who conduct meetings in the Church can, and should, be led by the spirit in the careful planning of a meeting; it doesn't of necessity require spontaneity.

[Bernard Gui]

First of all, I don't know why people assume rock music when they hear the word "enthusiastic." I, for one, would like to hear more good classical sacred music performed at church. My mother is her ward organist (she always gets that calling! LOL), and she made the "mistake" one Sunday of playing classical music for the prelude. She was told that was "inappropriate," even though it was not particularly rambunctious. But there is plenty of classical sacred music that would qualify as enthusiastic, if Mormons weren't so afraid of appearing irreverent. I use the word "appearing" on purpose, because enthusiasm does not equal irreverence--it's just a different kind of reverence.

Having said that, I have no problem with different styles of non-classical music being performed in worship services. Different people have different taste, and there's nothing inherently wrong with louder, faster-paced music, whether it be southern gospel music or rock music. Some people don't feel they've really had a worship experience without some good gospel music. Personally, I prefer classical, but that's me.

King David was criticized by Michal (2 Sam. 6) for his enthusiasm, leaping and dancing before the Lord. Aaron criticized Ammon for being overenthusastic unto "boasting" (Alma 26). But both David and Ammon were simply rejoicing in their God, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I agree with your sentiments, but I don't think sacrament meeting is the venue for

musical diversity. The organist has control over the emotional expression of

the hymns. A little training would go a long way to improve the musical worship in the meetings.

Bernard

Edited May 28, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[zerinus]

People who are concerned for their job, or forced to work more at work, or concerned about paying the bills, or experiencing problems with children, or are just feeling tired from the week etc, may find spontaneity to be a difficult resource to find. Today, a lay church can be a tired church.

I don't agree. The servants of the Lord have always led busy lives. That is never a bar to the inspiration of the Spirit.

[zerinus]

I understand. I was just pointing out that those who conduct meetings in the Church can, and should, be led by the spirit in the careful planning of a meeting; it doesn't of necessity require spontaneity.

I think that the scriptures cited (D&C 46:2; Moroni 6:9) do require and suggest spontaneity.

Edited May 28, 2012 by zerinus

[Garden Girl]

I agree with that. I think that the problem is not so much the lack of "enthusiasm," but lack of spontaneity and guidance of the Spirit.I think that ideally no one should be assigned to prepare a sacrament talk in advance. The bishop should call upon people from the congregation to come up and speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost, without prior warning or preparation. The hymns could also be selected in the course of the meeting by inspiration, without deciding them in advance. And the numbers should be indeterminate. One Sunday they may sing two hymns, and another Sunday six hymns, as the bishop may feel inspired to do. That is the best way of conducting the sacrament meeting in my opinion.

Wow Z... I couldn't disagree more... Yikes! I can't imagine the stuttering and fumbling the majority of people would do because of nervousness, particularly me... and I'm a good speaker. But I have to have my talk/scriptures written out so I have confidence and am able to move along in a coherent manner. The secret is not reading the talk with the head down, but being able to speak normally and glance down at my paper as needed to keep my thoughts in order... I get the inspiration of the Spirit as I prepare the talk because I pray beforehand... and I like it when the hymns compliment the talk given...

GG

Edited May 28, 2012 by Garden Girl

[why me]

I don't agree. The servants of the Lord have always led busy lives. That is never a bar to the inspiration of the Spirit.

A tired mind and soul makes a poor vessel for the spirit. Many members are burned out, not from church but from life. And this is not just an American thing but a world problem as economies change to a more efficiency model causing workers to stress and become tired. Not to mention job insecurity and money concerns. It is not easy for church members these days. It is not busy lives but worried lives that cause the problem.

[KevinG]

It would be nice if we could sing the hymns correctly - not one speed fits all. No matter what ward/branch I have attended including my current ward, the singing sounds like you're at a funeral.

You should have been in our priesthood meeting opening exercises this afternoon. Very not like a funeral. The poor pianist couldn't keep up on a few occasions, but we could hardly hear him over the singing anyway.

Come to my ward and you will find the true tempi. (I'm the organist and I refuse to let the tempo drag.)

We have some very good singers in our ward. I have had visitors from other wards tell me they love the pace, but a few have

complained about the speed. The chorister and I are in cahoots...we don't let things bog down, but at the same time we don't rush through the hymns. I do push the tempo on some of the longer ones such as "I Believe in Christ." I sing the hymns to myself as I play and avoid a tempo that makes the words hard to to say.

Bernard

I agree with your sentiments, but I don't think sacrament meeting is the venue for

musical diversity. The organist has control over the emotional expression of

the hymns. A little training would go a long way to improve the musical worship in the meetings.

Bernard

This is the price of volunteer worshipers and leaders. As a person who reads music and tempos there are occasions when I want to go up to the pulpit and whack the organist over the head at 90 beats per minute until they comprehend what that tempo means. But I behave and appreciate what they do for us on a volunteer basis.

My wife and I both have discussed the difference between a spiritual rendering and a performance rendering of a piece of music. The two can overlap but some beautiful renditions can be about the ego of the performer and some very amateur renditions can bring the Spirit of God in abundance. Its nice to have both but if you can only have one reverence is the route to take in Sacrament meetings.

Edited May 28, 2012 by KevinG

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think that the scriptures cited (D&C 46:2; Moroni 6:9) do require and suggest spontaneity.

'But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit.' (D&C 46:2)

As the one tasked by my bishop to plan sacrament meetings, I spend a couple of weeks on average seeking to be directed and guided by the Holy Spirit in the selection of topics to be addressed, the intended outcomes, the number and choice of speakers, etc. Our music director works with me to help integrate music (hymn selection for congegational singing, musical items, etc.) into the plan. At every step of the way, the Spirit guides and directs our planning. We had a training meeting with our area presidency back in March which focussed specifically on sacrament meetings and how we need to seek inspiration in their planning and execution. We were told that, as we do so, our weekly worship services will more closely approach temple worship. I shared my experience from just this past Sunday to illustrate. I had no idea that Sis D was going to end her sermon with a powerful exposition on a particular passage of scripture, but the Spirit did, and he inspired our acting music director to recommend a congregational hymn which would repeat the exact message presented by the assigned speaker. We have experiences like this all the time.

Now, are we also open to spontaneous adjustments to our plans? Absolutely. On a number of occasions, as the Spirit has directed, we have changed the choice of hymn literally in the middle of a service, added a speaker or two from the congregation, added in a testimony or brief sermon from a member of the bishopric, eliminated a congregational hymn, etc. We also allow especially effective meetings to run beyond their intended time on occasion...again, as the Spirit directs.

'And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.' (Moroni 6:9)

Again, you may wish to personally interpret this verse to demand some kind of spantaneity. It doesn't require it. As I suggested above, as I plan out a worship experience weeks in advance, I don't follow some set and unalterable pattern. The Spirit can and does lead us to know whether we need preaching or exhorting or supplicating or singing, in what order, by whom, with what purpose, etc. I've served in the bishopric only since March, and I've genuinely been surprised at how filled with inspiration the process can be.

[zerinus]

'But notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning, and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit.' (D&C 46:2)

As the one tasked by my bishop to plan sacrament meetings, I spend a couple of weeks on average seeking to be directed and guided by the Holy Spirit in the selection of topics to be addressed, the intended outcomes, the number and choice of speakers, etc. Our music director works with me to help integrate music (hymn selection for congegational singing, musical items, etc.) into the plan. At every step of the way, the Spirit guides and directs our planning. We had a training meeting with our area presidency back in March which focussed specifically on sacrament meetings and how we need to seek inspiration in their planning and execution. We were told that, as we do so, our weekly worship services will more closely approach temple worship. I shared my experience from just this past Sunday to illustrate. I had no idea that Sis D was going to end her sermon with a powerful exposition on a particular passage of scripture, but the Spirit did, and he inspired our acting music director to recommend a congregational hymn which would repeat the exact message presented by the assigned speaker. We have experiences like this all the time.

Now, are we also open to spontaneous adjustments to our plans? Absolutely. On a number of occasions, as the Spirit has directed, we have changed the choice of hymn literally in the middle of a service, added a speaker or two from the congregation, added in a testimony or brief sermon from a member of the bishopric, eliminated a congregational hymn, etc. We also allow especially effective meetings to run beyond their intended time on occasion...again, as the Spirit directs.

'And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.' (Moroni 6:9)

Again, you may wish to personally interpret this verse to demand some kind of spantaneity. It doesn't require it. As I suggested above, as I plan out a worship experience weeks in advance, I don't follow some set and unalterable pattern. The Spirit can and does lead us to know whether we need preaching or exhorting or supplicating or singing, in what order, by whom, with what purpose, etc. I've served in the bishopric only since March, and I've genuinely been surprised at how filled with inspiration the process can be.

I am not saying that you are doing anything wrong. What I am saying is that there better ways of doing it still.